AR Sponsor
Posted: 3/31/2015 3:45:11 PM EDT
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I keep seeing guys post their XM177 rifles on here with the correct type and length moderator but for the life of me I can't find anywhere online... a person or place that sells them!!
If anyone has a contact or lead, please let me know. Thanks Brandon [email protected] 972-670-4245 |
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I keep seeing guys post their XM177 rifles on here with the correct type and length moderator but for the life of me I can't find anywhere online... a person or place that sells them!! If anyone has a contact or lead, please let me know. Thanks Brandon [email protected] 972-670-4245 Try here. Retro Arms Works |
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I put a run of original size moderator look alikes in production as the Griffin Armament xm linear compensator. They will be 17-4 ss billet machined and melonite qpq finished. Original blueprint dimensioned externally including a grenade ring made to original tolerances with one additional feature- a .025" chamfer on the .630" diameter of both parts so that modern barrel thread runout can be accomodated. The era colt barrel thread profile tool was zero radius. The modern tools are 1/64 so original rings may not sit square on modern barrels.
The comps will be hollow internally as is typical for linear comps Like our m4sd linear comp. These will weigh ~ 7 ounces whereas the original moderator and ring weigh ~10.5 ounces. i dont have pricing yet but the parts are large and not cheap to manufacture even in batch production. ~$130 would be a ballpark. A lot of craptastic xm moderator wannabe parts have been made that asthetically ruin builds. The cottage industry parts require an end user to know someone who knows someone to be custom ordered. Evan and I the owners at Griffin have wanted to make xm177e2 clones for 15 years. The guns are legendary on account of their macvsog, ranger, lrrp, & seal use In Vietnam. We're finally doing that. I needed two of them and to make that happen and make sense on cnc equipment, i put a lot more than that in que for production. We should have them through manufacturing in two months. I would like to see retro builds become more mainstream. Ild like to see people with original tooling such as colt running production on handguards, & a1 stocks. Asthetically one of the challenges of the project was deciding what asthetic design to use with respect to welds. Post war production and actual Wartime production samples differed With post war welding being a lot colder and at times looking a lot more refined than actual wartime production. The wartime examples feature very hot welds that burn the .0625" radius nearly completely off the back of the housing. We ended up locating a moderator traceable to actual mac v sog ccn issue and based the "weld" geometry off that actual part. Our philosophy was people are building retros for that demographic anyway. Faced with the decision to consider an nfa moderator with original style internal baffles, we decided on a non nfa design not intended for sound reduction that wont require a $200 stamp. We feel the linear comp will be as useful a muzzle device as can be expected to be without resorting to the original miniature sound suppressor design, or changing the external appearance with features designed to reduce muzzle climb. Minimum barrel length on a perm build would be 12.14". Not far from 12.5" for a non nfa e2 retro build. |
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The xm linear comp will externally be identical to the original moderator Including flash suppressor slots and the wrench flats which require either a thin wrench or an M16A1 armorers tool for installation. Those dimensions are based on a blend of the original colt prints and the actual example xm moderator and grenade ring we used to design. The sample i saw had one minorly deformed slot which we wont duplicate but interestingly I was told the Mac V Sog guys used their knives to tighten and remove moderators. Which makes sense since the Colt engineer made the flats too short for a std wrench. The xm177 manual shows no lock washer and calls for 15-20ft lbs of torque which as a suppressor mfg we know wont retain a suppressor like muzzle device when hot, so tightening the unit makes sense. 30-35ft lbs will keep a can on to incredibly high temperatures. Tightening would have been required for confidence.
The difference externally between the print and the actual part was based on the welding process and how the melted metal altered the signature of that area of the part. The mission is a look alike part and that couldnt happen without close adhearance to actual assembled (and welded) period accurate part geometry. |
| Why is your price point $130 when John Thomas of retroarmsworks.com says he can crank them out for $65? Can you make NFA moderators for that $130? Because if they're just the hollow lookalikes I'd rather just wait for one to pop up on Gunbroker or elsewhere for half price. |
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Why is your price point $130 when John Thomas of retroarmsworks.com says he can crank them out for $65? Can you make NFA moderators for that $130? Because if they're just the hollow lookalikes I'd rather just wait for one to pop up on Gunbroker or elsewhere for half price. I'll venture a guess for you. John is retired and doing gunwork is a "side" business for him. His retirement and benefits (I'm assuming he gets a check and has some benefits) come from someplace besides doing gunwork. Same with me........I have a real job and do some retro parts on the side. I do it for the love of it, and to see guys get some retro parts that otherwise would be unobtanable. I don;t have to put food on the table, or make the house payment with what I get from doing parts. I'm thinking Greeno pays the bills with his business. There is a difference. |
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I put a run of original size moderator look alikes in production as the Griffin Armament xm linear compensator. They will be 17-4 ss billet machined and melonite qpq finished. Original blueprint dimensioned externally including a grenade ring made to original tolerances with one additional feature- a .025" chamfer on the .630" diameter of both parts so that modern barrel thread runout can be accomodated. The era colt barrel thread profile tool was zero radius. The modern tools are 1/64 so original rings may not sit square on modern barrels. The comps will be hollow internally as is typical for linear comps Like our m4sd linear comp. These will weigh ~ 7 ounces whereas the original moderator and ring weigh ~10.5 ounces. i dont have pricing yet but the parts are large and not cheap to manufacture even in batch production. ~$130 would be a ballpark. A lot of craptastic xm moderator wannabe parts have been made that asthetically ruin builds. The cottage industry parts require an end user to know someone who knows someone to be custom ordered. Evan and I the owners at Griffin have wanted to make xm177e2 clones for 15 years. The guns are legendary on account of their macvsog, ranger, lrrp, & seal use In Vietnam. We're finally doing that. I needed two of them and to make that happen and make sense on cnc equipment, i put a lot more than that in que for production. We should have them through manufacturing in two months. I would like to see retro builds become more mainstream. Ild like to see people with original tooling such as colt running production on handguards, & a1 stocks. Asthetically one of the challenges of the project was deciding what asthetic design to use with respect to welds. Post war production and actual Wartime production samples differed With post war welding being a lot colder and at times looking a lot more refined than actual wartime production. The wartime examples feature very hot welds that burn the .0625" radius nearly completely off the back of the housing. We ended up locating a moderator traceable to actual mac v sog ccn issue and based the "weld" geometry off that actual part. Our philosophy was people are building retros for that demographic anyway. Faced with the decision to consider an nfa moderator with original style internal baffles, we decided on a non nfa design not intended for sound reduction that wont require a $200 stamp. We feel the linear comp will be as useful a muzzle device as can be expected to be without resorting to the original miniature sound suppressor design, or changing the external appearance with features designed to reduce muzzle climb. Minimum barrel length on a perm build would be 12.14". Not far from 12.5" for a non nfa e2 retro build. The XM moderator as a linear comp is a fantastic idea, it's about time someone did it...but in melonited stainless?  I'm half ecstatic, half disappointed. I'd still have to paint it to get a parked grey look to go with everything else.
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Why is your price point $130 when John Thomas of retroarmsworks.com says he can crank them out for $65? Can you make NFA moderators for that $130? Because if they're just the hollow lookalikes I'd rather just wait for one to pop up on Gunbroker or elsewhere for half price. A quality multi function product isn't for everyone. That's probably why the heinous looking CAR 15 muzzle devices sold by companies like M&A parts exist. We could do a product for cheaper without being a linear compensator and without having a lot of technical machining for material removal. We didn't want to make another cheap heinous wannabe look alike or even a device that looked correct but was nothing but a large barrel weight. Our product will be a great option for people who want to know the 4.6" muzzle device is not a 5.5" $14 piece of garbage that has no resemblance to the real item they dreamed of and wanted to have. We didn't see the NFA sound moderator reproduction as the device that would best put 9 out of 10 of the XM177E1 /E2 dreamers into a feeling of fulfillment. The $200 tax is prohibitive to purchasing for most people when it's not attached to a real, effective, sound suppressor. The 17-4 provided design flexibility as it is 30-40% stronger than 4140. The melonite is grey to black, which would be similar to the parkarizing before someone beat on the part and turned it brown from rust after getting it hot and evaporating the oil. |
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The XM moderator as a linear comp is a fantastic idea, it's about time someone did it...but in melonited stainless? I'm half ecstatic, half disappointed. I'd still have to paint it to get a parked grey look to go with everything else.Quoted:
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I put a run of original size moderator look alikes in production as the Griffin Armament xm linear compensator. They will be 17-4 ss billet machined and melonite qpq finished. Original blueprint dimensioned externally including a grenade ring made to original tolerances with one additional feature- a .025" chamfer on the .630" diameter of both parts so that modern barrel thread runout can be accomodated. The era colt barrel thread profile tool was zero radius. The modern tools are 1/64 so original rings may not sit square on modern barrels. The comps will be hollow internally as is typical for linear comps Like our m4sd linear comp. These will weigh ~ 7 ounces whereas the original moderator and ring weigh ~10.5 ounces. i dont have pricing yet but the parts are large and not cheap to manufacture even in batch production. ~$130 would be a ballpark. A lot of craptastic xm moderator wannabe parts have been made that asthetically ruin builds. The cottage industry parts require an end user to know someone who knows someone to be custom ordered. Evan and I the owners at Griffin have wanted to make xm177e2 clones for 15 years. The guns are legendary on account of their macvsog, ranger, lrrp, & seal use In Vietnam. We're finally doing that. I needed two of them and to make that happen and make sense on cnc equipment, i put a lot more than that in que for production. We should have them through manufacturing in two months. I would like to see retro builds become more mainstream. Ild like to see people with original tooling such as colt running production on handguards, & a1 stocks. Asthetically one of the challenges of the project was deciding what asthetic design to use with respect to welds. Post war production and actual Wartime production samples differed With post war welding being a lot colder and at times looking a lot more refined than actual wartime production. The wartime examples feature very hot welds that burn the .0625" radius nearly completely off the back of the housing. We ended up locating a moderator traceable to actual mac v sog ccn issue and based the "weld" geometry off that actual part. Our philosophy was people are building retros for that demographic anyway. Faced with the decision to consider an nfa moderator with original style internal baffles, we decided on a non nfa design not intended for sound reduction that wont require a $200 stamp. We feel the linear comp will be as useful a muzzle device as can be expected to be without resorting to the original miniature sound suppressor design, or changing the external appearance with features designed to reduce muzzle climb. Minimum barrel length on a perm build would be 12.14". Not far from 12.5" for a non nfa e2 retro build. The XM moderator as a linear comp is a fantastic idea, it's about time someone did it...but in melonited stainless? I'm half ecstatic, half disappointed. I'd still have to paint it to get a parked grey look to go with everything else.The XM's and their parts were actually black. I don't know where the "XM grey" concept started. I guess if I had to guess, it came from people seeing issued guns with finish wear, blown out and faded color photos of often used guns, or really old guns that had faded from black to grey from use and handling, or from the sun over time. Colt didn't change its process. The same black finish on a M4 carbine today was used on XM177's. I've been issued probably 15 Colt M16's, M4's, or M4A1's. Every one that was new was pretty much deep black in color with a coat of oil that was wiped dry. The anodized parts were black bone dry. I've also seen some M4's with the 101st airborne that were almost 50% silver - shiny silver receiver extensions in the hands of soldiers brass brushing those silver aluminum parts. (big surprise) 
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We didn't want to make another cheap heinous wannabe look alike or even a device that looked correct but was nothing but a large barrel weight. If I remember correctly (https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=123&t=573880) Bricks moderator is only 2oz heavier than a real XM177E2 and looks exactly the same. At least for me I prefer the balance to be like the original. |
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If I remember correctly (https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=123&t=573880) Bricks moderator is only 2oz heavier than a real XM177E2 and looks exactly the same. At least for me I prefer the balance to be like the original. Quoted:
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We didn't want to make another cheap heinous wannabe look alike or even a device that looked correct but was nothing but a large barrel weight. If I remember correctly (https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=123&t=573880) Bricks moderator is only 2oz heavier than a real XM177E2 and looks exactly the same. At least for me I prefer the balance to be like the original. At 12 the device is only 2 ounces lighter than the same size solid piece of steel. It might look like the part, but that would be its purpose- to look externally like the part. That might be what some customers want. I want to shoot my XM clone. Material removal costs money. |
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The XM's and their parts were actually black. I don't know where the "XM grey" concept started. I guess if I had to guess, it came from people seeing issued guns with finish wear, blown out and faded color photos of often used guns, or really old guns that had faded from black to grey from use and handling, or from the sun over time. Colt didn't change its process. The same black finish on a M4 carbine today was used on XM177's. I've been issued probably 15 Colt M16's, M4's, or M4A1's. Every one that was new was pretty much deep black in color with a coat of oil that was wiped dry. The anodized parts were black bone dry. I've also seen some M4's with the 101st airborne that were almost 50% silver - shiny silver receiver extensions in the hands of soldiers brass brushing those silver aluminum parts. (big surprise) http://modernsurvivalonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/m4.jpg Quoted:
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I put a run of original size moderator look alikes in production as the Griffin Armament xm linear compensator. They will be 17-4 ss billet machined and melonite qpq finished. Original blueprint dimensioned externally including a grenade ring made to original tolerances with one additional feature- a .025" chamfer on the .630" diameter of both parts so that modern barrel thread runout can be accomodated. The era colt barrel thread profile tool was zero radius. The modern tools are 1/64 so original rings may not sit square on modern barrels. The comps will be hollow internally as is typical for linear comps Like our m4sd linear comp. These will weigh ~ 7 ounces whereas the original moderator and ring weigh ~10.5 ounces. i dont have pricing yet but the parts are large and not cheap to manufacture even in batch production. ~$130 would be a ballpark. A lot of craptastic xm moderator wannabe parts have been made that asthetically ruin builds. The cottage industry parts require an end user to know someone who knows someone to be custom ordered. Evan and I the owners at Griffin have wanted to make xm177e2 clones for 15 years. The guns are legendary on account of their macvsog, ranger, lrrp, & seal use In Vietnam. We're finally doing that. I needed two of them and to make that happen and make sense on cnc equipment, i put a lot more than that in que for production. We should have them through manufacturing in two months. I would like to see retro builds become more mainstream. Ild like to see people with original tooling such as colt running production on handguards, & a1 stocks. Asthetically one of the challenges of the project was deciding what asthetic design to use with respect to welds. Post war production and actual Wartime production samples differed With post war welding being a lot colder and at times looking a lot more refined than actual wartime production. The wartime examples feature very hot welds that burn the .0625" radius nearly completely off the back of the housing. We ended up locating a moderator traceable to actual mac v sog ccn issue and based the "weld" geometry off that actual part. Our philosophy was people are building retros for that demographic anyway. Faced with the decision to consider an nfa moderator with original style internal baffles, we decided on a non nfa design not intended for sound reduction that wont require a $200 stamp. We feel the linear comp will be as useful a muzzle device as can be expected to be without resorting to the original miniature sound suppressor design, or changing the external appearance with features designed to reduce muzzle climb. Minimum barrel length on a perm build would be 12.14". Not far from 12.5" for a non nfa e2 retro build. The XM moderator as a linear comp is a fantastic idea, it's about time someone did it...but in melonited stainless? I'm half ecstatic, half disappointed. I'd still have to paint it to get a parked grey look to go with everything else.The XM's and their parts were actually black. I don't know where the "XM grey" concept started. I guess if I had to guess, it came from people seeing issued guns with finish wear, blown out and faded color photos of often used guns, or really old guns that had faded from black to grey from use and handling, or from the sun over time. Colt didn't change its process. The same black finish on a M4 carbine today was used on XM177's. I've been issued probably 15 Colt M16's, M4's, or M4A1's. Every one that was new was pretty much deep black in color with a coat of oil that was wiped dry. The anodized parts were black bone dry. I've also seen some M4's with the 101st airborne that were almost 50% silver - shiny silver receiver extensions in the hands of soldiers brass brushing those silver aluminum parts. (big surprise) http://modernsurvivalonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/m4.jpg Can you reference somewhere that XM177's were actually black? Every rifle from the Vietnam era I have seen have been a grey color that is darker than the 80's era Colt's, but definitely were grey. It wasn't until the late 90's or maybe the very early 2000's that Colt's were anodized the deep black we are used to today. The first M4's were still the 80's era grey. Edit to add, not saying you are incorrect, this is just the first time I have ever heard of this. |
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i dont have pricing yet but the parts are large and not cheap to manufacture even in batch production. ~$130 would be a ballpark. So how many do you need to sell before you break even? I am interested in seeing the final product, but you may be over estimating the size of the retro community. It's a niche and there are a fair number of us that are quite happy with something authentic enough yet falls somewhere between $14 and $130. I am quite happy with my XM177 clone that has an A2 lower and a Bushmaster XM177 that I had wrench flats added to. |
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Can you reference somewhere that XM177's were actually black? Every rifle from the Vietnam era I have seen have been a grey color that is darker than the 80's era Colt's, but definitely were grey. It wasn't until the late 90's or maybe the very early 2000's that Colt's were anodized the deep black we are used to today. The first M4's were still the 80's era grey. Edit to add, not saying you are incorrect, this is just the first time I have ever heard of this. Quoted:
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I put a run of original size moderator look alikes in production as the Griffin Armament xm linear compensator. They will be 17-4 ss billet machined and melonite qpq finished. Original blueprint dimensioned externally including a grenade ring made to original tolerances with one additional feature- a .025" chamfer on the .630" diameter of both parts so that modern barrel thread runout can be accomodated. The era colt barrel thread profile tool was zero radius. The modern tools are 1/64 so original rings may not sit square on modern barrels. The comps will be hollow internally as is typical for linear comps Like our m4sd linear comp. These will weigh ~ 7 ounces whereas the original moderator and ring weigh ~10.5 ounces. i dont have pricing yet but the parts are large and not cheap to manufacture even in batch production. ~$130 would be a ballpark. A lot of craptastic xm moderator wannabe parts have been made that asthetically ruin builds. The cottage industry parts require an end user to know someone who knows someone to be custom ordered. Evan and I the owners at Griffin have wanted to make xm177e2 clones for 15 years. The guns are legendary on account of their macvsog, ranger, lrrp, & seal use In Vietnam. We're finally doing that. I needed two of them and to make that happen and make sense on cnc equipment, i put a lot more than that in que for production. We should have them through manufacturing in two months. I would like to see retro builds become more mainstream. Ild like to see people with original tooling such as colt running production on handguards, & a1 stocks. Asthetically one of the challenges of the project was deciding what asthetic design to use with respect to welds. Post war production and actual Wartime production samples differed With post war welding being a lot colder and at times looking a lot more refined than actual wartime production. The wartime examples feature very hot welds that burn the .0625" radius nearly completely off the back of the housing. We ended up locating a moderator traceable to actual mac v sog ccn issue and based the "weld" geometry off that actual part. Our philosophy was people are building retros for that demographic anyway. Faced with the decision to consider an nfa moderator with original style internal baffles, we decided on a non nfa design not intended for sound reduction that wont require a $200 stamp. We feel the linear comp will be as useful a muzzle device as can be expected to be without resorting to the original miniature sound suppressor design, or changing the external appearance with features designed to reduce muzzle climb. Minimum barrel length on a perm build would be 12.14". Not far from 12.5" for a non nfa e2 retro build. The XM moderator as a linear comp is a fantastic idea, it's about time someone did it...but in melonited stainless? I'm half ecstatic, half disappointed. I'd still have to paint it to get a parked grey look to go with everything else.The XM's and their parts were actually black. I don't know where the "XM grey" concept started. I guess if I had to guess, it came from people seeing issued guns with finish wear, blown out and faded color photos of often used guns, or really old guns that had faded from black to grey from use and handling, or from the sun over time. Colt didn't change its process. The same black finish on a M4 carbine today was used on XM177's. I've been issued probably 15 Colt M16's, M4's, or M4A1's. Every one that was new was pretty much deep black in color with a coat of oil that was wiped dry. The anodized parts were black bone dry. I've also seen some M4's with the 101st airborne that were almost 50% silver - shiny silver receiver extensions in the hands of soldiers brass brushing those silver aluminum parts. (big surprise) http://modernsurvivalonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/m4.jpg Can you reference somewhere that XM177's were actually black? Every rifle from the Vietnam era I have seen have been a grey color that is darker than the 80's era Colt's, but definitely were grey. It wasn't until the late 90's or maybe the very early 2000's that Colt's were anodized the deep black we are used to today. The first M4's were still the 80's era grey. Edit to add, not saying you are incorrect, this is just the first time I have ever heard of this. For reference, cut up XM177E2 moderator I had vs. brick moderator: 
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For the record, I work hard to bring quality reproduction parts to the "retro" group. My reproduction XM177 moderators are not "another cheap heinous wannabe look alike"... Cosmetically, they are nearly identical to the original part, and I parkerize them in the correct finish, which is manganese phosphate.
John Thomas |
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For the record, I work hard to bring quality reproduction parts to the "retro" group. My reproduction XM177 moderators are not "another cheap heinous wannabe look alike"... Cosmetically, they are nearly identical to the original part, and I parkerize them in the correct finish, which is manganese phosphate. John Thomas I have one of these. It is definitely well made! |
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The XM's and their parts were actually black. I don't know where the "XM grey" concept started. I guess if I had to guess, it came from people seeing issued guns with finish wear, blown out and faded color photos of often used guns, or really old guns that had faded from black to grey from use and handling, or from the sun over time. Colt didn't change its process. The same black finish on a M4 carbine today was used on XM177's. Oh really? I've been issued probably 15 Colt M16's, M4's, or M4A1's. Every one that was new was pretty much deep black in color with a coat of oil that was wiped dry. The anodized parts were black bone dry. I've also seen some M4's with the 101st airborne that were almost 50% silver - shiny silver receiver extensions in the hands of soldiers brass brushing those silver aluminum parts. (big surprise) http://modernsurvivalonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/m4.jpg Manganese phosphate leaves steel parts in various shades of charcoal grey to black. The 'Nam era aluminum parts were most definitely in various shades of grey not black. Several members here own NFA pieces from the era, in very cherry condition, and can attest to the fact. Maybe I'm judging too soon, most of the melonited components I've seen seem too glossy. I am well aware of soldiers using wire bristle brushes and unauthorized chemicals to clean weapons  . At least one idiot (O1) with a can of Easy Off oven cleaner.
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Can you reference somewhere that XM177's were actually black? Every rifle from the Vietnam era I have seen have been a grey color that is darker than the 80's era Colt's, but definitely were grey. It wasn't until the late 90's or maybe the very early 2000's that Colt's were anodized the deep black we are used to today. The first M4's were still the 80's era grey. Edit to add, not saying you are incorrect, this is just the first time I have ever heard of this. Quoted:
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I put a run of original size moderator look alikes in production as the Griffin Armament xm linear compensator. They will be 17-4 ss billet machined and melonite qpq finished. Original blueprint dimensioned externally including a grenade ring made to original tolerances with one additional feature- a .025" chamfer on the .630" diameter of both parts so that modern barrel thread runout can be accomodated. The era colt barrel thread profile tool was zero radius. The modern tools are 1/64 so original rings may not sit square on modern barrels. The comps will be hollow internally as is typical for linear comps Like our m4sd linear comp. These will weigh ~ 7 ounces whereas the original moderator and ring weigh ~10.5 ounces. i dont have pricing yet but the parts are large and not cheap to manufacture even in batch production. ~$130 would be a ballpark. A lot of craptastic xm moderator wannabe parts have been made that asthetically ruin builds. The cottage industry parts require an end user to know someone who knows someone to be custom ordered. Evan and I the owners at Griffin have wanted to make xm177e2 clones for 15 years. The guns are legendary on account of their macvsog, ranger, lrrp, & seal use In Vietnam. We're finally doing that. I needed two of them and to make that happen and make sense on cnc equipment, i put a lot more than that in que for production. We should have them through manufacturing in two months. I would like to see retro builds become more mainstream. Ild like to see people with original tooling such as colt running production on handguards, & a1 stocks. Asthetically one of the challenges of the project was deciding what asthetic design to use with respect to welds. Post war production and actual Wartime production samples differed With post war welding being a lot colder and at times looking a lot more refined than actual wartime production. The wartime examples feature very hot welds that burn the .0625" radius nearly completely off the back of the housing. We ended up locating a moderator traceable to actual mac v sog ccn issue and based the "weld" geometry off that actual part. Our philosophy was people are building retros for that demographic anyway. Faced with the decision to consider an nfa moderator with original style internal baffles, we decided on a non nfa design not intended for sound reduction that wont require a $200 stamp. We feel the linear comp will be as useful a muzzle device as can be expected to be without resorting to the original miniature sound suppressor design, or changing the external appearance with features designed to reduce muzzle climb. Minimum barrel length on a perm build would be 12.14". Not far from 12.5" for a non nfa e2 retro build. The XM moderator as a linear comp is a fantastic idea, it's about time someone did it...but in melonited stainless? I'm half ecstatic, half disappointed. I'd still have to paint it to get a parked grey look to go with everything else.The XM's and their parts were actually black. I don't know where the "XM grey" concept started. I guess if I had to guess, it came from people seeing issued guns with finish wear, blown out and faded color photos of often used guns, or really old guns that had faded from black to grey from use and handling, or from the sun over time. Colt didn't change its process. The same black finish on a M4 carbine today was used on XM177's. I've been issued probably 15 Colt M16's, M4's, or M4A1's. Every one that was new was pretty much deep black in color with a coat of oil that was wiped dry. The anodized parts were black bone dry. I've also seen some M4's with the 101st airborne that were almost 50% silver - shiny silver receiver extensions in the hands of soldiers brass brushing those silver aluminum parts. (big surprise) http://modernsurvivalonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/m4.jpg Can you reference somewhere that XM177's were actually black? Every rifle from the Vietnam era I have seen have been a grey color that is darker than the 80's era Colt's, but definitely were grey. It wasn't until the late 90's or maybe the very early 2000's that Colt's were anodized the deep black we are used to today. The first M4's were still the 80's era grey. Edit to add, not saying you are incorrect, this is just the first time I have ever heard of this. The only real us property marked xm177e2 i saw in person was black. The whole carbine was black with the exception of the upper which was a dark brownish color (almost like bushmaster plum color) and the moderator which had been very hot and had turned brown from rust like parkerize will do. I think people forget or fail to realize that guns issued in vietnam (an extremely humid environment) would be cleaned often and would rust almost daily during the rainy season even when carefully maintained. That use will wear a finish very rapidly. |
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So how many do you need to sell before you break even? I am interested in seeing the final product, but you may be over estimating the size of the retro community. It's a niche and there are a fair number of us that are quite happy with something authentic enough yet falls somewhere between $14 and $130. I am quite happy with my XM177 clone that has an A2 lower and a Bushmaster XM177 that I had wrench flats added to. Quoted:
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i dont have pricing yet but the parts are large and not cheap to manufacture even in batch production. ~$130 would be a ballpark. So how many do you need to sell before you break even? I am interested in seeing the final product, but you may be over estimating the size of the retro community. It's a niche and there are a fair number of us that are quite happy with something authentic enough yet falls somewhere between $14 and $130. I am quite happy with my XM177 clone that has an A2 lower and a Bushmaster XM177 that I had wrench flats added to. The decision to manufacture the part had more to do with a fifteen year dream to build an xm than about money. I'm not really concerned with whether they sell or not. After reading about 7moa accuracy with the xm in army trials im not sorry i didnt make an nfa moderator. the one i saw had evidence of bullet contact with the .295" baffle near to the muzzle of the barrel. That, and army accuracy testing both seem to suggest the moderators design may have been bad for accuracy and bullet stability. I also feel the only way to move the retro community forward is for more manufacturers to offer retro solutions. Eventually that could trickle up to a large co like Colt who could do something like run a1 nylon furniture sets or grips. If the only way to build a retro is to commission a one off and snipe parts online, the retro community will always be small. |
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For the record, I work hard to bring quality reproduction parts to the "retro" group. My reproduction XM177 moderators are not "another cheap heinous wannabe look alike"... Cosmetically, they are nearly identical to the original part, and I parkerize them in the correct finish, which is manganese phosphate. John Thomas I never suggested they were. I believe that statement was taken out of context and used to suggest i had by someone who took offense to paying $130 for a muzzle device. The only concept that is remotely related to your product in my description would be the concept of more or less solid parts being more aesthetic than anything else. A barrel weight that looks like a muzzle device more than a muzzle device that looks like a moderator. In order to understand my description in context people would have to do a market analysis. Products like this one piece non correct length example: 5.5" one piece Or this part with three grooves here: three grooves |
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I never suggested they were. I believe that statement was taken out of context and used to suggest i had by someone who took offense to paying $130 for a muzzle device. The only concept that is remotely related to your product in my description would be the concept of more or less solid parts being more aesthetic than anything else. A barrel weight that looks like a muzzle device more than a muzzle device that looks like a moderator. In order to understand my description in context people would have to do a market analysis. Products like this one piece non correct length example: 5.5" one piece Or this part with three grooves here: three grooves Quoted:
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For the record, I work hard to bring quality reproduction parts to the "retro" group. My reproduction XM177 moderators are not "another cheap heinous wannabe look alike"... Cosmetically, they are nearly identical to the original part, and I parkerize them in the correct finish, which is manganese phosphate. John Thomas I never suggested they were. I believe that statement was taken out of context and used to suggest i had by someone who took offense to paying $130 for a muzzle device. The only concept that is remotely related to your product in my description would be the concept of more or less solid parts being more aesthetic than anything else. A barrel weight that looks like a muzzle device more than a muzzle device that looks like a moderator. In order to understand my description in context people would have to do a market analysis. Products like this one piece non correct length example: 5.5" one piece Or this part with three grooves here: three grooves Understood... I just want to make sure folks know there are nice parts available, too. There are alternatives to the less than perfect reproductions you mention. John Thomas |
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Manganese phosphate leaves steel parts in various shades of charcoal grey to black. The 'Nam era aluminum parts were most definitely in various shades of grey not black. Several members here own NFA pieces from the era, in very cherry condition, and can attest to the fact. Maybe I'm judging too soon, most of the melonited components I've seen seem too glossy. I am well aware of soldiers using wire bristle brushes and unauthorized chemicals to clean weapons . At least one idiot (O1) with a can of Easy Off oven cleaner. Quoted:
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The XM's and their parts were actually black. I don't know where the "XM grey" concept started. I guess if I had to guess, it came from people seeing issued guns with finish wear, blown out and faded color photos of often used guns, or really old guns that had faded from black to grey from use and handling, or from the sun over time. Colt didn't change its process. The same black finish on a M4 carbine today was used on XM177's. Oh really? I've been issued probably 15 Colt M16's, M4's, or M4A1's. Every one that was new was pretty much deep black in color with a coat of oil that was wiped dry. The anodized parts were black bone dry. I've also seen some M4's with the 101st airborne that were almost 50% silver - shiny silver receiver extensions in the hands of soldiers brass brushing those silver aluminum parts. (big surprise) http://modernsurvivalonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/m4.jpg Manganese phosphate leaves steel parts in various shades of charcoal grey to black. The 'Nam era aluminum parts were most definitely in various shades of grey not black. Several members here own NFA pieces from the era, in very cherry condition, and can attest to the fact. Maybe I'm judging too soon, most of the melonited components I've seen seem too glossy. I am well aware of soldiers using wire bristle brushes and unauthorized chemicals to clean weapons . At least one idiot (O1) with a can of Easy Off oven cleaner. The circa 1968-9 xm177e2 i saw had four black anodized components- the delta ring, the lower, the trigger guard, and the charging handle.the upper was the only off color part and it was more of a plum color and dark. Not one of the parts was grey. In building a retro ild rather my gun have the time capsule feel than the feel of something issued, used, worn, old or faded. Colt's muzzle device, barrel, and fsb phosphate is very dark when oiled. The parts should always have a light coat of oil. The port door, latch plate and castle nut are often a little more grey. i dont know why that is. Here is an example of an m16a1 marked gun with very dark phosphate and anodizing. I dont know exactly when a gun would have been a1 marked but that could 1970? For a gun that is likely at least a couple decades old and has been maintained and used, it is still pretty dark. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1dO_ns_WnwM Here is an example of an early ~1964? ar15 that looks about as dark as anodizing gets- deffinitely darker than they grey magazine. the upper also has a slight hint of brown. 
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Thats fairly dark imo. The barrel phosphate deep black is identical to the 90xxxx serial gun i saw.
The weld is similar to the example i saw in that it is smooth rather than "coins" and burned the .0625" radius off the back of the body, melting the rear outside edge of the moderator housing almost to a 90 degree corner. The bead comprises a ~.095" radius where the 90 degree joint between parts was located. |
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this is my NIB SP1. definitely grey and not black. http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k517/s0b3/NIB%20SP1/DSC06451.jpg http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k517/s0b3/NIB%20SP1/DSC06448.jpg http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k517/s0b3/NIB%20SP1/DSC06447.jpg That's a very nice SP1, NEW TOO what year? 
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That's a very nice SP1, NEW TOO what year? Quoted:
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this is my NIB SP1. definitely grey and not black. http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k517/s0b3/NIB%20SP1/DSC06451.jpg http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k517/s0b3/NIB%20SP1/DSC06448.jpg http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k517/s0b3/NIB%20SP1/DSC06447.jpg That's a very nice SP1, NEW TOO what year? '65 |
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Given the fact ive seen a black xm and prefer black, i see this as more of a user preference thing. I think black was obviously the color they were shooting for as darker colors than intended would mean more dye had to be used which is an intentional action. 45 years of sunlight can cause dye to fade. The gun i saw had spent those 40 in an arms room mostly in the dark.
The dark brown upper would be the result of dirty water. I dont personally see the point in trying purposfully to duplicate flawed colors that happened to occur under poor anodizer quality control. My local anodizer makes black parts black all day long and has the imi magazine contract work. Maybe the wartime production negotiations for ar15 production resulted in reduced qc standards to improve output. I can tell you colt recievers today are deep black (every single part). So anodizing qc is high today. Ive seen probably 1000+ Colt m4's in different new batches of ~ 220+ and they were all black. |
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Given the fact ive seen a black xm and prefer black, i see this as more of a user preference thing. I think black was obviously the color they were shooting for as darker colors than intended would mean more dye had to be used which is an intentional action. 45 years of sunlight can cause dye to fade. The gun i saw had spent those 40 in an arms room mostly in the dark. The dark brown upper would be the result of dirty water. I dont personally see the point in trying purposfully to duplicate flawed colors that happened to occur under poor anodizer quality control. My local anodizer makes black parts black all day long and has the imi magazine contract work. Maybe the wartime production negotiations for ar15 production resulted in reduced qc standards to improve output. I can tell you colt recievers today are deep black (every single part). So anodizing qc is high today. Ive seen probably 1000+ Colt m4's in different new batches of ~ 220+ and they were all black. no one will argue that they are black today but there are hundreds of thousands of grey colts out there. my sp1 above has spend the better part of 50 years in a box and i can assure you if there has been any extensive UV exposure, the paper hang tag would reflect that. there are new in wrap slip rings that have not had UV exposure that are grey. GM and H&R were more black than grey but the overwhelming majority of early Colts were some shade of grey. they were grey into the 90s for their commercial line and i believe it was intentional to create that color. insisting that A1 colts are black based on one example you've seen is like saying all of one species of animal are white based on the one albino you saw. |
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... I think black was obviously the color they were shooting for as darker colors than intended would mean more dye had to be used which is an intentional action. 45 years of sunlight can cause dye to fade. The gun i saw had spent those 40 in an arms room mostly in the dark. ... The dark brown upper would be the result of dirty water. I dont personally see the point in trying purposfully to duplicate flawed colors that happened to occur under poor anodizer quality control. My local anodizer makes black parts black all day long and has the imi magazine contract work. Maybe the wartime production negotiations for ar15 production resulted in reduced qc standards to improve output. Just so I understand clearly, you're saying that grey colt m16's are a result of a mix of sub par anodizing dye jobs, weathering, or poor QC and that they should've all been black at the start of their life? |
| They were most likely originally trying for a Gray/Green Parkerizing look but like others have stated the colors vary from light gray, to dark, to brownish. If they wanted the receivers black from the get go they would have been black. Anyone that has done or knows anything about anodizing will tell you black is actually easier , it takes way less surface prep time and black produces way less blems as the darker color helps hide minor flaws. Watch the YouTube video Mike from NDS posted on prepping the receivers for gray anodizing and listen to what he has to say. |
Colt 601
M16A2 lower 
We had M16A1's in my first unit that had been refurbished with A2 furniture. I remember the finish being black as best as I can recall and from personal photos. Was that a product of being refurbished or the original anodizing? I don't know. I specifically remember a lot of SP-1's in the 1970's and 1980's having dark grey receivers. Pic of one of the M16A1's in 1995 right before we got the M16A2: 
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