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Posted: 7/19/2012 4:52:37 PM EDT
| So I've been planning a retro .22 project for some time - but lately have been looking at 'Tactical .22's' and while watching a review of the HK (Umarex) 416D, it was mentioned that the bolt release is a dummy due to the increased chance of a .22 rimfire round igniting when dropping the bolt as opposed to a centerfire round. While it makes a certain amount of sense to me, millions of .22 AR conversions are out there and I've never heard of anything like this before. Anyone have a slamfire incident or heard of one? |
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I haven't but I've only shot Colt and S&W dedicated in AR platform. I've had one rd not shoot in probably 1500. Picked it up, reloaded it and it fired! Will probably do a CMMG conversion some day but have tons of semi .22's that were my original gun collection hobby mostly and have fired probably 50K over the years. Used to buy 5K at a time and am looking at 10K on the floor. Favorites are 1890 Winchester's (pump) and 1903 Winchester's. Getting almost scared to shoot them anymore. Got two NIB 10/22 that I may never shoot. Even bought the Ruger 10/22 gun cases from Midway!
New SGN had a neat article on Crossman AR air rifle upper. Guy building it sounded just like most here in the beginning of our AR habit! Back when we could try before we buy! Go$ &amn the Pusher! |
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I've fired an awful lot of .22LR over the years (back when a box of a hundred CCI Mini Mags was 49 cents, my brother and I would shoot up a couple of bricks in a session...and do two session a day for the weekend), most of it in semi autos, and never had a slam fire in any of them.
I did have one in a chinese SKS though |
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I have CMMG set that I have used in Blondies 605 build and never had an issue. Also have the Armi Jager that she has probably put 500+ rounds through and also never had an issue with it. Yes, but the Armi Jager doesn't have the standard Bolt catch.  Thanks for the responses guys- I'd still like to hear experiences with .22 conversions - good, bad or otherwise, CMMG in particular.
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As stated I haven't shot the first .22 conversion AR in lots of .22 shooting. I do own and shoot on occasion a few boys rifles and .22 rifles that are over 100 yrs old. Some of the semi autos mag tube springs weakened over time and caused feed issues but Numrich was able to supply quite a few factory replacement parts. Some I've repaired, some I just have the parts to repair not installed and some will probably never be repaired. All have sentimental value. I have over 30 .22's and can tell the real story about each ( how much they cost originally, who bought them new, mostly from mail order catalogs and how much I paid for them).
Not saying most anything isn't possible but some of my Boy's rifles from the early 1900's are pretty cheaply made and if anything would slam fire I would think it would be one of those when you closed the bolt or breech but depends on how they were made (with safety/without, etc.). Never seen or heard of one personally doing it in my loop of collecting and that was a hobby dealing with a lot of oldsters who shot a lot of .22's. I have read of some models being guilty of this also but have only read about it. The quality of some of the early Stevens and Winchesters is pretty remarkable for their actual inital cost. As with lots of things manufactured of high quality many of those manufacturers didn't survive for various reasons. Mostly economical. Depression killed an era after WWI where most every American boy had a .22. Some of the boy's rifles were $2-3 and mostly made of sheet metal with a brass tube for a barrel. What is unique is they pretty much figured out 1-14 to 1-16 twist and powder loads and lead bullet weights that have remained pretty constant for getting close to 125 years. Have there been improvements sure but for the most part the basics haven't changed. It wasn't mine but buddies Russian SKS slam fired on a private range one day or lets say it discharged all by it's lonesome. To this day I make sure mine are empty when not in my hands because of this event. Apologies for jacking thread as I know OP is only interested in AR conversions. Just the thoughts of .22's bring a ton of fond memories and yes it kills me not to shoot the Ruger 10/22s' but they were hand selected and have what I consider better than average wood on them. I do have a few BX-25 mags and various other hi-caps also. If anyone has a bolt for a Page-Lewis D model or Stevens Model 50 Jr for parts from a trashed .22 I would consider paying more than it's worth! There are a few other models with same bolt but fitment would be required in my opinion or trying it but I am definately good for coins.. .This particular 22 was local farming community hog killing gun passed around every winter and bolt was lost on one occasion. Would like to put it back in working order before all who used it are gone. For some reason it appears a lot of these were sold in the southwest. .Again apologies Morg. |
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I have never had a slam fire with an AR conversion.
I have had some with an H&R .22 mag semiauto. Caught some shrapnel from that one. There have been some with the 10/22 because of the asymmetrical design of the bolt travel. There is a guide rib in the top of the receiver that controls the location of the bolt in relationship to the chamber. If the guide rib or the dimensions of the bolt are off, the bolt face can crush the rim on a round that been SINGLE LOADED into the chamber (not fed from the mag) There was guy recently that had one with a NIB Ruger. I would think you might have more with a worn out one as the rib wears it will allow the bolt to drift over, and out of alignment. |
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"...it was mentioned that the bolt release is a dummy due to the increased chance of a .22 rimfire round igniting when dropping the bolt as opposed to a centerfire round."
Gonna have to call B.S. on that claim, since the bolt slams shut faster when the rifle is cycling on semi-auto than it does when you hit the bolt release. The real reason for the bolt catch delete would most likely be cost-cutting to increase profit margins. |
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I just got another M261 kit today for my soon to be prototype 22lr built to make weight for the NRA Light Rifle rules.
I figured I'd keep the red furniture for the NDS proto unit and I'd use the black for the match rifle, I might try to wrap the yellow HG in black carbon fiber. If someone was looking for a nice M261 kit and mag for a hundred shipped I'd recommend Recoc Ordnance reconord.com. 
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I just got another M261 kit today for my soon to be prototype 22lr built to make weight for the NRA Light Rifle rules. I figured I'd keep the red furniture for the NDS proto unit and I'd use the black for the match rifle, I might try to wrap the yellow HG in black carbon fiber. If someone was looking for a nice M261 kit and mag for a hundred shipped I'd recommend Recoc Ordnance reconord.com. http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/m/dmshannon/proto-22lr.jpg Thanks for the info on who still has the M261 conversions. I've used them for years in different rifles and you can lock the bolt back with the bolt catch. It's handy at the local range that likes to see the all the bolts open and mags clear of the gun when the line went cold. When the line went hot I'd insert a mag and hit the blt release and drive a fresh round home and never had one go off doing this. |
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So I've been planning a retro .22 project for some time - but lately have been looking at 'Tactical .22's' and while watching a review of the HK (Umarex) 416D, it was mentioned that the bolt release is a dummy due to the increased chance of a .22 rimfire round igniting when dropping the bolt as opposed to a centerfire round. While it makes a certain amount of sense to me, millions of .22 AR conversions are out there and I've never heard of anything like this before. Anyone have a slamfire incident or heard of one? No slamfires, I use a CMMG kit in my 603 clone all the time, it functions flawlessly and is just as accurate with the .22lr as it is with the 5.56. |
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Carbinekid thanks for the link but I kinda wanted to spend the c note on my vacation. Guess I won't be going after the MP 12. Think I have some 261 parts stashed I was given and by the way super sweet rifle. I really like it! Would be a nice addition to my .22 collection. Who's barrel if you don't mind me asking? AR-10/22 way cool. I'm impressed.
Since slam fire question seems answered would those in the know think the M261 for $100 would be better than CMMG for $120-130. Pretty sure CMMG mag holds more. Not into conversions yet but can see it happening if that's all they cost. Would a C MP chrome bore work fine and is there anything else I would need to do? Stupid me! Thanks! Apologies on jack but it relates kinda. I have some pretty accurate .22 rifles and wife has three Brownings. Should I just save the coins? RBRD! |
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Well, the CMMG kit has advantages - for example, I'm seriously looking at picking up a SIG 522 when things pick back up, which takes the same magazines. The M261 is more 'retro' of course, but screw that unless you're building a correct AF 604 with training kit or similiar. BD mags get a bad rap in some circles, but I think personally it's the weapon/mag fit that's the issue. Just my opinion.
I haven't heard much about the reliability of .22 comversions - anyone want to comment on their experiences compared to say, a 10/22 or Marlin? Thanks for all the great responses guys. This is really useful info. As usual, the retro crowd comes through.
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Well I kinda had one in mind for a 604! My retro AR platform rifle of choice. Didn't even know they were for the AF. Sounds like it would definately work! Is the 10 rd insert all that's available for M-261 or will others work? Wife's Browning is 10 rd through the stock and one should watch her feed that baby. She can burn some ammo without hitting much. Still pretty cool to watch. Bet I've got .live 22 LR all over our shooting field she probably dropped.
Dang Morg, just pulled out my 60W Safety*Ethics*Sportmanship brass plate in stock gold trigger version. Think it holds 15 in the tube. Bought it the first day Walmart opened up in my town on sale for $59.99. Should have bought 10 but was living week to week and eating Banquet with egg noodles or minute rice. My Stevens 87-C is pretty accurate for a semi. Dad bought it from his brother who bought it from the Sears catalog local country store for $17 after WWII. Lot of parts in that baby for $17. I really like .22's just not a whole lot of noise or rump but lots of fun. |
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Carbinekid thanks for the link. Think I have some 261 parts stashed I was given and super sweet rifle. I really like it! Would be a nice addition to my .22 collection. Who's barrel if you don't mind me asking? AR 10/22 way cool. I'm impressed. I bought a 22" barrel off the 22lr only sale page, I think it went to a 10/22. I turned a barrel extension like sleeve that I pressed on the end and will cut it like the compass lake M261 dedicared units.The extension is profiled like the end of the M261's mini barrel. The mounting point portion is recessed on the extension and a spacer is the money part that takes up the slack and holds everything in place file photo  ,
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I turned a barrel extension like sleeve that I pressed on the end and will cut it like the compass lake M261 dedicared units.The extension is profiled like the end of the M261's mini barrel. The mounting point portion is recessed on the extension and a spacer is the money part that takes up the slack and holds everything in place
Think I got it. A little more than I was planning on doing but yours is right on time. Rome took a while to reach it's peak. |
| Cle will cut you one 1/14 in the A1 profile parked w/the spacer for $375ish plus the hundred for the bolt is not too bad. CLE gets $900 for their complete NM upper. I'm just cheap. A hundred for the blank, a hundred for he bolt group and copy the rest. And its not a conversion and it is retro. I was going to hard chrome the bolt as one of my first home plating projects. |
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Well, the CMMG kit has advantages - for example, I'm seriously looking at picking up a SIG 522 when things pick back up, which takes the same magazines. The M261 is more 'retro' of course, but screw that unless you're building a correct AF 604 with training kit or similiar. BD mags get a bad rap in some circles, but I think personally it's the weapon/mag fit that's the issue. Just my opinion. I haven't heard much about the reliability of .22 comversions - anyone want to comment on their experiences compared to say, a 10/22 or Marlin? Thanks for all the great responses guys. This is really useful info. As usual, the retro crowd comes through. Oh boy - bear with me on this one. My first dedicated upper was/is a Kuehl Precision M-4 clone. Very reliable - Mr. Kuehl basically hand built and adjusted these uppers. I then obtained - in not particular order - Several Ciener drop-ins, a DPMS, Colt (used), Colt - in the blister pack, a couple of AF conversions, a couple of 261s, a Spike's drop-in (which is now a dedicated bolt in a mid-length I put together with a NOS Spike's barrel. Edited to add: Forgot one - I have a Military Armament Corp. Atchisson conversion, RPB industries Atlanta, GA - this is the original Atchisson from which John Ciener developed his conversion and the rest, as the say, is history. Does not look like a Ciener or any other conversion. Along the way I also picked up a CZ V-22 upper and a Kurt Wala KKF upper - this last is profiled like a A1 and built on a 604 receiver. The KKF takes any drop-in conversion - my favorite is the AF as it holds back on the last shot. KKF barrel is 1 in 16" with a 5.56 chamber and no locking lug cut outs in the barrel extension to prevent a 5.56 bolt and carrier being dropped in. Shoots well with good ammo. As for reliability - good ammo and a little tweaking goes a long way. I use Ciener steel, BDMs, CMMGs, Colts, DPMS, 261 and AF mags with their respective units. Never had any real problems. I have the most trouble with the 261s but as another poster pointed out: Compass Lake builds their NM and spacegun .22LR uppers on the 261s - they claim they are the most reliable and robust. Hi-Power gas gunners love them for practice but the $$$$ price tag keeps me from jumping in. The KKF upper wears red Cav Arms furniture but for our Vietnam shoots - I pull the gaudy stuff off and throw on triangle HGs, A1 pistol grip and a D or E stock. Let the kids and some of women shoot it - they literally have a blast with it. BDM makes a 26(?) round mag for the 261. I've never tried it as we have some strange laws in this state. My first AF unit would not fire when I first tried it - the rims did not even have a mark on them. After puzzling over for a day - I pulled the FP out and replaced the spring with a piece of Ciener recoil spring - that did it - totally reliable ignition. I think the AF mag is the best designed in terms of feeding but not sure how long the nylon will hold up. Some of mine are developing tiny cracks in the nylon. OT - my friend retired from the ANG - he once described the AF .22 mag to one of his buddies who was still in. The guy said: "So that 's what those things are - we found a case or two, couldn't figure out what they were and threw them out." 
To sum up - I've never had a conversion that did not run - some required very specific ammo, others a little bit of work. The main problem I see is the .22 mags have to be at just the right height in the receiver - some mag catches/receiver combos are just a skoosh off for the .22 mags. Sometimes requires fiddling with the height of the feed lips or even the length so as to not interfere with ejection. YMMV Here's a pic of the KKF in VN retro dress with the AF conversion.: 
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Way too elaborate for my needs but they are very nice. Tweaking mags is one thing. $900 is what I have in my homebrewed all BM and Colt DCM. Can I just drop in the CMMG or M-261 and have some cheap fun without many hicups? Not planning on competition shooting with it and would be using a 1-12 .223 barrel that's pretty darn good (low mileage) on a 604 receiver. Got plenty of lowers so whatever I felt like using unless modifying bolt catch is necessary. Are there fouling issues or just clean as normal?
Wife's Browning semi's prefer CCI but will run on anything if cleaned regularly. Seems to get a little dirty faster than most of mine and can be finicky. Got plenty of ammo. Guess I'm really thinking of a budget .22 LR retro plinker and I have everything but conversion kit or so I thought, just for a change, that I could possibly sell and not lose too much at a later date. Two buddies have S&W and Colt M-4 dedicated copies but they were $400-500 when purchased and I recommended at the time not buying them but building a nice AR lower and a .22 upper assembly but my thrifty self was thinking drop in conversion for personal plinking pleasure. Even re-loading .556 isn't cheap anymore. As stated previously I already have quite a few .22's to shoot. Just not AR platform .22's. Morg brought it up and I'm a retroholic! Looks like I'll be researching the M-261. Kinda liked the looks of the CMMG kit in the package. Could a pretty decent 604 upper hang with a dedicated .22 upper to 100 yds in an experts opinion? I usually shoot about 75-85 max with the .22 and can hit cans and crows pretty regularly. Don't usually waste my targets shooting .22. |
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