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Posted: 9/27/2009 7:34:41 AM EDT
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Okay, I just bought a complete upper set here. It was advertised as being all Colt, and the barrel is, but I don't think that anything else is. The bolt is unmarked. I've found some indication that the PM forging mark means that it was made either for or by the Phillipines. This was advertised in the auction as being Colt.
Is it? Or is it from Elisco with a Colt barrel on it? And what's the deal with the large FA button that has no cut out of the side of it? Here's a quick-and-dirty few pictures. Sorry about the clarity ... this was from my phone. http://img85.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=m16a1005.jpg |
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PM= Capco/Martin Marietta. Just got one myself. Its also got the large FA button. Don't know the story on those. can't remember if uppers/rifles were made with the large button or not, but they were a replacement part in the mid 80's, early 90's, (they predate the smaller buttons) |
I had one also.I was told by a few members that it is in fact Capco / Martin Marietta..They were original Colt replacement contract and also Colt made for a Phillipine contract.. So technically you ARE good to go as Colt.And just to ease your mind,,I traded my PM to 45bravo as he need a PM one for one of his builds,,I got an upper with NO forge code that had the proof marks..So you know a PM one is good if 45bravo wanted one..
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PM marked receiver are GTG, quality receivers. I would not worry about the authenticity of it unless you paid a premium for it, or are planning a accurate M16A1 build.
The big button forward assist w/o the flat side was used as a replacement on rifles w/A1 lowers, while a big button forward assist w/the flat side was used as a replacement on rifles w/A2 lowers. They had to cut the FA flat on the one side to make it clear the reinforcements on the A2s. I don't know the exact time period they were used, but I'd imagine mid 80's to early 90's. |
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We went through the origins of the PM code on A1 receivers many moons ago. But I’ll recap as there is erroneous info that keeps getting passed off as fact.
The PM forge code should only be attributed to CAPCO in regards to A2 upper receivers that were produced under contract with the Air Force and used during the conversions of earlier rifles. PM coded A1 receivers can be attributed to both Colt and Elisco of the Philippines. Elisco produced M16A1’s for the Philippine Government under license from Colt. As part of the license agreement, in addition to the TDP Colt provided technical assistance to establish the manufacturing line. Initially Colt may have procured and provided the raw materials such as forgings produced in the US as part of the license agreement. There is evidence to support this as early examples of Elisco production can be found with PM forge codes. Many late Elisco produced A1’s are devoid of the PM forge code. This may be attributed to Elisco having the forgings produced locally in the Philippines indicating their need of forge codes was irrelevant. During the same time frame, Colt utilized PM coded uppers as part of the spare parts contract to the U.S. Govt. I have personally encountered PM marked uppers as spare parts during the early 80’s. There is also evidence that Colt may have utilized PM coded uppers to meet production schedules as PM coded uppers have been encountered with Colt proof marks. While the M in the code may well represent Martin Marietta or a subsidiary thereof, the evidence points to the P designating Colt/Philippine contract and/or Parts (Colt) concurrently depending on the end user. So to make this easy, PM coded A1 = Colt/Elisco PM coded A2 = Capco If it has the usual Colt proofs above the ejection port (C in square / VP in a triangle) the barrel/receiver combo are original to each other and came off of a complete rifle. Otherwise it is most likely a new (spare part) upper mated to a new/used barrel. The presence of the large round FA would lead me to believe this is the case as that part was only used during rebuilds or as field spares. As for Philippine/Elisco manufactured A1’s, components of early examples (usually those procured under contract) will have markings and later examples manufactured by Elisco will be unmarked. Though absolutes are hard to tie down to specific serial number ranges due to limited access to original rifles in which to draw an accurate database from. In addition to the PM uppers in question, here are some of the other marked variations encountered; Barrels: P MP Bolts: MPP Carriers: P FA produced by Elisco are round but, are unique in that the face is noticeably convex or domed. Wpns Man |
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Okay, thanks. I guess that makes me feel a little better. Now I need to run a bore light through this thing and see how it looks inside.
The barrel is a C MP CHROME BORE, so I assume it's a 1/12. The FSB appears very rough-cast, marked with the C and bell. The upper looks brand new, black anodized. There's a couple scratches on the left side of it, although nothing that detracts from function, and really not even that bad cosmetically. The only thing - functionally - that I'm concerned about is the rear sight. It's extremely tight, you can't flip the sight over. I'll mess with the screw a little bit tomorrow when I build the whole thing up, see how that goes. Now, my lower is a new production Double Star, so it's presumably the A2 style. (This is my first AR, so I'm still learning!) Will I need to replace the FA button with a flat-side one in order to clear the receiver? thanks again! (Oh, and sorry if this is a question that gets asked too often - the search function would only let me search back 30 days, and I didn't see anything about Elisco in the past 30 days.) |
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The only thing - functionally - that I'm concerned about is the rear sight. It's extremely tight, you can't flip the sight over. I'll mess with the screw a little bit tomorrow when I build the whole thing up, see how that goes. The screw is pinned through the windage drum, so it won't loosen. There is a piece of spring steel under the rear sight that bears upward against the base of the sight applying tension. About the only thing you could do to ease tension on the sight would be to remove it and bend the spring a little. Probably better just to lube it a little. |
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The only thing - functionally - that I'm concerned about is the rear sight. It's extremely tight, you can't flip the sight over. I'll mess with the screw a little bit tomorrow when I build the whole thing up, see how that goes. The screw is pinned through the windage drum, so it won't loosen. There is a piece of spring steel under the rear sight that bears upward against the base of the sight applying tension. About the only thing you could do to ease tension on the sight would be to remove it and bend the spring a little. Probably better just to lube it a little. I've had this problem also...I took the sight apart and found the flat spring was too long...It hit each end of the slot...and it wouldn't compress...I had a spare which wasn't as long, and now it works fine... 
Note: I wouldn't try to force the sight through its arc until you check it out... 
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One of my uppers is a PM ––- the fellas cleared up its lineage for me in this thread ––- one poster even mentioned building a correct 613P or 653P i think ––- who knows - i havent gotten to it yet though, but the black finish matches the generic A2 lowers i have pretty well
what the heck is this? |
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You won't have a problem with the round FA button. If it is a full round 'large button' forward assist, you are actaully incorrect. There are two variations on the 'large button' forward assist, one with a flat machined on the receiver side and one that is competlely round. The comlpetely round large button will work fine on an A1 lower, but the additional reinforcement on the A2 lower at the rear will prevent the full round large button forward assist from being derpressed fully- the button head literally runs into the A2 lower receiver reinforcemnet ridge. I can verify this as a certainty- ask me how I know. 
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The "D" shaped forward assists were for the A2 type lowers. They had to be modified to clear the extra material on the receiver extension interface. They went to the small head next. We have A1 rebuild rifles from ANAD in Vasic Training at Ft. Benning in 1980. Some of them had teardrop FA's and some had the large round FA's.
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