AR Sponsor
Posted: 6/26/2009 10:29:43 PM EDT
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This is not meant to dredge up the old "Is the M16 reliable enough?" debate. But we all know about the teething problems that the M16 encountered shortly after it was adopted, particularly during 1964-67. Many of us are now using USGI uppers that date back to this time period. Most of us probably won't be living with our retro ARs in the swamps & jungles of Southeast Asia anytime soon, so it's unlikely that they'll have to endure the strains imposed by operating in these conditions. But I was just wondering what kind of reliability I can expect from a retro AR built using a USGI upper with a NoDak lower. Have any of you encountered any major FTF or FTE issues with your retro builds? What is the ideal type of lubrication to use to ensure smooth functioning? |
| I've never had a problem either and the only things I use are either CLP or LSA. I think that's one of the biggest problems the M-16 had in the reliability department was the hot, humid climate of Southeast Asia that promoted rust, combined with ammunition that tended to produce more fouling and the troops not keeping their rifle clean was what lead to the reputation of the M-16s lack of reliability. |
Thanks for the replies. And to prevent us from beating a very dead horse, this inquiry is about the reliability of replica "retro" semi-auto AR-15 clones built using a mix of USGI and commercial parts, not the "real deal" select-fire M16 and XM16E1s that were issued 40+ years ago.  |
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The prolems were caused by three factors; none of which should be present in a currently built retro.
1) The original Edgewater buffer did not match up well with the Ball powder that was used in the first mass production of the 5.56 roulnd. When they changed over from the extruded powder used in the early test batxhes to the ball powder to be used in mass production, the difference in the burn rate increased the cyclic rate of the piece dramatically; sometimes to over 1000 rounds a minute. This played hell w/parts durability and trliability. 2) The ball powder that was being used initially was reprocessed WW2 stuff that was full of Calcium Carbonate, used to leach out impurities during powder manufacture. This had caysed no problems during M1/M14 manufacture because the left over, unburned Calcium Carbonate stayrd on the front of the gas piston in the M1, and in the expansion chamber of the M14. It did make them a kind of bitch to get them GI inspection clean, (take my word for it, I was there  ), but caused no functional problem.
The stuff piled up in the M16s gas tube,though, and would close it off to proper gas passage. When they started leaching the Calcium Carbonate out of the powder in new productio, that problem went away.. 3) Finally, the .the jungle environment in much of Viet Nam, combined w/a lack of cleaning supplies for the new piece, led to some really crapped up chambers that got pitted, and wanted to make empty cases stick in the chamber rasther than eject. This problem was solved by first chroming the chamber; then the entire bore, and issuing sufficient cleaning gear. Bottom line, the issues in 'Nam are long since solved and overe with.  My own house gun is a clone of the current Israeli carbine, which is basically the Colt Commando version, and I trust it implicitely.
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But I was just wondering what kind of reliability I can expect from a retro AR built using a USGI upper with a NoDak lower. Have any of you encountered any major FTF or FTE issues with your retro builds? What is the ideal type of lubrication to use to ensure smooth functioning?
1. Equal or better, much better. Now that we know the issues associated with reliability, past gremlins should not be a factor. There's really no difference in NDS products and USGI. Other than the happy switch capability, the NDS lowers shouldn't be any more or less reliable than the USGI pieces. Better QC on the NDS pieces since they're not made by the millions. Today you can choose what parts, ammo, mags, etc. you use, so it's only going to be as reliable as you are. You have the option of tweaking every detail of function. You can also use McFarland gas rings and Wolff springs and other perks to keep your retro running better. 2. Most failures can be attributed to bad ammo, mags, poor maintenance and sometimes out-of-spec parts. Unless you re-load, 3 of the 4 are your responsibility. Check your parts, mags and practice good cleaning hygeine. It's a no-brainer to use quality ammo. All of my non-SHTF failures have been due to one of the above. I keep my mags clean and try to use fresh springs in everything. I like the enhanced extractor springs over the basic USGI setup. Once everything is dialed in and broken in, the occaisonal FTF / stovepipe should be a rare occurance; at least with me it is. I still think pilot error is the cause of most failures. You must know your weapon, and love it. 3. With all the wonder lubes out there, I still rely on CLP/breakfree. Maybe not the best, but it works for me. Lube is only going work properly if I've done my job, which is keeping the parts clean and carbon-free in the first place. Since I'm not shooting FA, and am not in a pressure cooker SHTF situation, and I am a RKI using well maintained parts and eq., my odds of reliability with retro rifles is exponentially higher. If'n the S@*t does hit the fan, I have no qualms using a retro AR. Plus I have an AK 
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| This is sort of off topic but I was recenty re-reading "The Hills Fights" which is about the prelude to the siege at Khe Sanh. It talks about the trouble the Marines had with their initial issue of M16's. The Marines WERE keeping them clean and the guns were jamming all over the place. Lots of guys died with the teething problems. Thankfully, they've been ironed out since then. |
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Quoted:
This is sort of off topic but I was recenty re-reading "The Hills Fights" which is about the prelude to the siege at Khe Sanh. It talks about the trouble the Marines had with their initial issue of M16's. The Marines WERE keeping them clean and the guns were jamming all over the place. Lots of guys died with the teething problems. Thankfully, they've been ironed out since then. Reportably, some XM16E1s had out of spec chambers as well. I will be shooting mine for the first time next weekend in tribute to 4th of July. I sure hope it wasn't one of them!  Worse case, I can have the chamber reamed - I'm really not too worried about it. Out of spec ammo, out of spec parts, no cleaning kits, and a ltwt buffer that further increased the cyclic rate, leading to bolt bounce - All has been fixed. FWIW I agree on the heavy duty extracot sping/Crane O-ring mod for any AR - I've just been too lazy to take a bolt apart.
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Stay out of jungles with tall grass. Keep out of deep water. Use modern powders, lube and clean the beast occasionally. Should be just fine.
BTW, inspection clean. You weapon is only as clean as the gunny feels he needs to dick with you. Our M1's hadn't been fired in decades, cleaned over and over and over and over. He would find dirt and crap in everybody's that was on his shit list. |
| I have 3 A1s and one CAR15 and not only are they very reliable but they even eat Wolf ammo without much problems. I clean them with either brake cleaner for the gas tube or diesel for the rest of the weapon. I believe that the 5.56 chrome chambers account for he good results with crap steel cased ammo. My A1a are definitely good go to guns if the SHTF. |
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I just got done reading the "Black Rifle" Vol 1(version 3) and the little nugget I found was that the case hardness was an issue with the early ammo too. Again, that problem has been long solved. While my SHTF rifle remains a Colt M4 (14.5in with extended FH), once I've had a few hundred rounds through my NDS 604 clone I'm tempted to revist my youth and use the 604 as the SHTF rifle as my civie M4 only lacks the Uncle's NV Ie...it's as portly as my duty M4! Long winded way of saying, "Go Retro and feel confident." For what's it's worth...I've stopped having FTF'd ever since we got issued new green follower mags. That and 5 drops of whatever lube floats your boat.
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Still waiting for my parts to come back from US Anodizing, and once she's finally assembled, there's only one way to find out.| There was a long thread about this a while ago. It can be found here. |
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That's not the point of the OP's question. |
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I have been taking my non-chromed-anything M VP 603-uppered retro out into the mud, grime, and wet of the Pacific Northwest forests since long before I had heard the the therm "retro AR". I regularly spend several days out in the forests and have generally treated the rifle like a cheap whore, I run her hard and fast. It has NEVER missed a beat and I can't recall a single FTE or FTF in thousands upon thousands of rounds (I typically use XM193). The gun was constructed of all 'retro' USGI parts (FCG parts bobbed where required) except the Lower, which until recently was an EA J-15 (Now it's an NDS XM). I religiously use LSA (or equivilant) on all my ARs.
The only other point to disclose is that every night after shooting the thing, even in the back-forty, before turning in the rifle always gets field-stripped, a cursory cleaning, and a lube, just like was pounded into my head back at ol' Ft. Knox. Moral: keep your retro clean and lubed and it will run like a champ for a long time to come. -RH |
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