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Posted: 11/18/2008 4:42:42 AM EDT
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I have a new RR lower that I baught over a year and a half ago, which has been one of my safe queens. It has never been built and is still in the wrapper that it came in. I am not sure if it was transfer as a rifle or pistol. Regardless, how would I go about getting it listed as a pistol if it was a not transfered as one.
Thanks in advance for any assistance. Ashton |
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I have a new RR lower that I baught over a year and a half ago, which has been one of my safe queens. It has never been built and is still in the wrapper that it came in. I am not sure if it was transfer as a rifle or pistol. Regardless, how would I go about getting it listed as a pistol if it was a not transfered as one. Thanks in advance for any assistance. Ashton I'll go ahead and bump this because I was about to ask the same question. |
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I got the answer lastnight form a buddy that has his SOT. If the stripped lower is a virgin lower and has never been built as a rifle, then you can build it as a pistol first then you can build it as a rilfe and take it back to a pistol without paying any tax stamp.
He also informed me that it is dam near impossible to get the Manufacturer to give you a letter of the vigin state. HE suggested take pictures of it stripped, then built as a pistol with a time and date stamp and keep the pictures in a safe place if ever need the proof. I am sure one of the "experts" will now chime in and to tell me that the information is wrong and their's is right. Best of luck with your build. |
I am an FFL and called local ATF office to ask this question due to the new 4473 forms. The new forms allow us to transfer the receiver as just that a "receiver", we no longer transfer it as a rifle or pistol. Local agent told me that as long it is built into a legal configuration ie no stock on a pistol which would make it SBR, you were good. I have read posts on here supposedly from manufacturers that say the receiver must be roll marked "pistol" and designated pistol by the manufacturer. Even my local ATF agent admitted this was a "gray" area. Hope this muddies the water for you, 
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I'm by no means an expert but here's what I've come up with.
-Old 4473 (Pre Noveber 2008)...needs to be transfered as a "pistol" to be build as one. -New 4473 (Starting Nov. 15, 2008)...transfered as an "Other" which is a less than technical term for stripped reciever and can be built as either a pistol or a rifle. -IN EITHER CASE...must be logged on the manufacturers books as either a "pistol" or a "stripped receiver" on date of production to legally be built as a pistol. NOTE!!! What I am about to say is my opinion and NOT the law or even a rule of thumb!!! In the case of most manufacturers, unless it is to be built in their factory and shipped to a dealer as a complete rifle, most seem to log them as "receivers" and ship them that way. There may be a few that don't fall into that category but I think if you stick to reputable manfacturers your probably good. To be sure I would call BEFORE you buy and see how they log their stripped receivers. Final note: Having a roll mark that says pistol or something of the sort on the side means ditally squat legally. It's the paperwork and nothing more that decides it's disposition. Think of it this way, if you have ever appliedfor a job that requires a degree, they don't want to see your diploma, they want to see your transcript. -There has been some disussion also as to the so called "Contender Clause." My opinion after much deliberation. No matter what you intend to do, build it as a pistol first; or basically stop short of attaching your stock body. Take a few pics and date them. Then finish your build. Most people agree with this assesment, but again this is my opinion and NOT the law. Hope I have father muddied the waters |
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There's no way to undo the transfer. If it was transferred as a rifle, it's a rifle.
The way I understand it, what ashtondm said above is correct (legal to build if virgin) IF and only if it was transferred as a pistol or as a frame/receiver like the new form allows. Ether way, I would just buy a pistol lower that is marked as such so I didn't need to keep any pictures or paperwork to prove I'm legal. Ask Cavalry Arms if the ATF lets you access your papers that show you are legal. They had a letter from the local ATF agent saying they were perfectly legal in what they were doing. It was taken along with everything else (even the copy at the owner's home). They're still fighting the ATF in court, last I heard, almost a year later. |
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I got the answer lastnight form a buddy that has his SOT. If the stripped lower is a virgin lower and has never been built as a rifle, then you can build it as a pistol first then you can build it as a rilfe and take it back to a pistol without paying any tax stamp. Your friend is wrong. If the receiver is transferred on the old 4473 as a pistol or the new 4473 as receiver, and you first built as a pistol (IE, less than 16" barrel, no stock) and then later built/configured as a rifle (16+" barrel and stock), then you cannot lawfully put a barrel less than 16" back on the gun without SBRing the gun. Those who site the TC Contender case do not understand that the case applies to TC only and is not precedent for converting a pistol->rifle->pistol again. Here are some links to back this up: ATF Letter and a letter (credit goes to Big-Bore): 
He also informed me that it is dam near impossible to get the Manufacturer to give you a letter of the vigin state. I know some manufactures won't provide written verification of virginity (Bushmaster comes to mind) but when I bought my lower from Essential Arms, they wrote on the receipt that the receiver had never been assembled as a firearm. Take care jonblack |
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Here is a thread I started on this issue a few months back:
Advice needed - Register virgin lowers as pistol or rifle jonblack |
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Everyone says you can put a carbine kit on a pistol but doesn't that letter say it is then illegal to convert it back to a pistol? If you did SBR it or register it as a "weapon made from a rifle???" could you still make it into a plain pistol or full rifle? Yes |
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Just like shrikefan says:
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Everyone says you can put a carbine kit on a pistol but doesn't that letter say it is then illegal to convert it back to a pistol? Yes, and... If you did SBR it or register it as a "weapon made from a rifle???" could you still make it into a plain pistol or full rifle? ...yes jonblack |
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Pistol. A weapon originally designed, made,.....
Unless definitions have changed, this is perfectly clear to me. Just as a rifle cannot be un-made from being a rifle, just as a shot gun cannot be un-made from being a shot gun, etc. a pistol cannot be un-made from being a pistol. Can they all be re-assembled in other configurations - yes, some may require taxes though and then they would be considered something different because then they would be Title 2 weapons which are controlled by a different set of laws. Switching back and forth between Title 1 weapons usually does not cause a change in the intrinsic qualities of the "original" weapon. Example: Someone has a TC Encore/contender that was originaly purchased as a 16" rifle. They put on an 18" shotgun barrel. Do they have to get a SBS stamp to put the 16"rifle barrel back on? Rmember, shotgun barrels have to be 18" minimum by law. Letters are just someone's opinion. And when the letter is in direct disagreement with a regulation or law I know which one I would follow. Let me ask this hypothetical question: If someone were to write a letter to batfe and ask if it was currently ok for a regular, non-SOT civilian to make a Machine Gun without paying the tax and the return letter basically said "sure, no problem". Would that letter trump the law or regulations? I doubt it. I think most have heard about or seen the shoe string letters to prove how outlandish some of the batfe "rulings" can be. 
I am not going to suggest that someone (including me) tempt fate so let your conscience/wallet/virginity be your guide. |
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I got the answer lastnight form a buddy that has his SOT. If the stripped lower is a virgin lower and has never been built as a rifle, then you can build it as a pistol first then you can build it as a rilfe and take it back to a pistol without paying any tax stamp. Your friend is wrong. If the receiver is transferred on the old 4473 as a pistol or the new 4473 as receiver, and you first built as a pistol (IE, less than 16" barrel, no stock) and then later built/configured as a rifle (16+" barrel and stock), then you cannot lawfully put a barrel less than 16" back on the gun without SBRing the gun. Those who site the TC Contender case do not understand that the case applies to TC only and is not precedent for converting a pistol->rifle->pistol again. Here are some links to back this up: ATF Letter and a letter (credit goes to Big-Bore): http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v318/BiggBore/untitled.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v318/BiggBore/untitled2.jpg He also informed me that it is dam near impossible to get the Manufacturer to give you a letter of the vigin state. I know some manufactures won't provide written verification of virginity (Bushmaster comes to mind) but when I bought my lower from Essential Arms, they wrote on the receipt that the receiver had never been assembled as a firearm. Take care jonblack Thank you!!! I've been looking for this letter (I thought I saw it once before!!!!) MODS - Please TAC THIS THREAD!!! |
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Thank you!!! I've been looking for this letter (I thought I saw it once before!!!!) MODS - Please TAC THIS THREAD!!! BumpFire You may recognize the letter because you posted two replies in the thread I linked to above. Here it is again: Advice needed - Register virgin lowers as pistol or rifle Take care jonblack |
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This gray area and various interpretations is exactly why I bought 2 "PISTOL" marked lowers for my AR pistols. WA state is a no SBR state. I didn't want to worry about being questioned by anyone about the legality of my pistols, and the "virginity" of my lowers.
The easiest solution is just buy a pistol marked/registered lower and be done with it. Just my 2 cents. 
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