User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
MD, USA
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Posted: 9/27/2014 11:22:40 PM EDT
[#1]
Needs to be marked as "other" on the paperwork.
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AL, USA
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Posted: 10/2/2014 5:42:42 PM EDT
[#2]
Please, pardon my ignorance, but am I correct in understanding, I can order a new AR lower, ask my FFL to register it with ATF as an AR pistol and it would then not require the $200 ATF stamp? Thanks for you input...
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Posted: 10/2/2014 7:19:51 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MPNamVet: Please, pardon my ignorance, but am I correct in understanding, I can order a new AR lower, ask my FFL to register it with ATF as an AR pistol and it would then not require the $200 ATF stamp? Thanks for you input... |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 11/7/2014 11:03:49 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MPNamVet:
Please, pardon my ignorance, but am I correct in understanding, I can order a new AR lower, ask my FFL to register it with ATF as an AR pistol and it would then not require the $200 ATF stamp? Thanks for you input... You only need to pay the $200 tax stamp if you are making/transferring an SBR. So unless the lower is already registered as an SBR, then you do not have to mess with the NFA stuff. The lower will just transfer to you like any other longarm you would purchase from an ffl. If you are buying a new stripped lower, then your FFL should check off "other" instead of the typical longgun or handgun. Your FFL filling out the paperwork as "other" will allow you to build your stripped lower as a pistol or rifle. |
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Posted: 12/14/2014 2:44:17 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlabamaPaul:
Your FFL should check "Other" on the 4473. You're not registering anything, just picking it up, and no, you don't need a stamp to make an AR pistol... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlabamaPaul:
Originally Posted By MPNamVet:
Please, pardon my ignorance, but am I correct in understanding, I can order a new AR lower, ask my FFL to register it with ATF as an AR pistol and it would then not require the $200 ATF stamp? Thanks for you input... What's this 4473? I only got an invoice saying "stripped lower" when I bought it. |
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Posted: 12/14/2014 2:59:56 AM EDT
[#6]
It's the paperwork you fill out at the ffl when receiving the lower. 4473
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Posted: 12/16/2014 10:52:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: iNuhBaDNayburhood]
[#7]
Dumb question...
I have 7.5" AR pistol, and an acquaintance told me there is some restriction to the overall length of a pistol beyond which it is no longer classified as a pistol... Is there an overall maximum length? Or is a 12.5" 300blk barrel okay? |
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Posted: 12/16/2014 11:01:31 PM EDT
[#8]
Some state laws vary, but under federal law, if it has an overall length greater than 26" and a vertical foregrip it's a Title I firearm, not a pistol. Without the vfg, it's still a pistol.
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Posted: 1/3/2015 4:36:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Sputnik556]
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By iNuhBaDNayburhood:
Dumb question... I have 7.5" AR pistol, and an acquaintance told me there is some restriction to the overall length of a pistol beyond which it is no longer classified as a pistol... Is there an overall maximum length? Or is a 12.5" 300blk barrel okay? You can have a 28" barrel on a pistol if you please, there is no federal law limiting the length of a pistol. As JoshAston said, be sure to check local laws. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 1/14/2015 9:52:36 AM EDT
[#10]
I have a question regarding measuring OAL with the Thordsen customs pistol builders kit. Is the buffer tube cover and cheeck saddle considered fixed and permanent or do I only measure OAL to the end of the reciever extension in this case.
I understand OAL in general and on the muzzle end. I'm just not sure about the reciever end in this case. |
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Posted: 1/14/2015 10:48:13 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dvanbramer:
I have a question regarding measuring OAL with the Thordsen customs pistol builders kit. Is the buffer tube cover and cheeck saddle considered fixed and permanent or do I only measure OAL to the end of the reciever extension in this case. I understand OAL in general and on the muzzle end. I'm just not sure about the reciever end in this case. I would treat the RE cover the same as a muzzle device - measure with it off. That's me being cautious - measure it reduced to its shortest functional length. |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 1/15/2015 11:45:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Friar_Tuck]
[#12]
Thank you to all who have answered the same question over and over in many various forms!
I have spent weeks reading through these threads and BATF documents posted. I just received 2 new stripped lowers, and both were registered "other" receiver on the 4473s If I understand all the documents, it only makes sense to assemble both as pistols first, regardless of what I intend them to be when I am through with them. I haven't seen any suggestions as to how to possibly document that they were assembled as pistols first, such as time stamped photos or something. I suppose it is really a non issue, but was just curious if anyone has come up with an idea. Thanks, Jim |
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Posted: 1/16/2015 3:57:30 PM EDT
[#13]
Just take and post pictures of your initial pistol builds...
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FL, USA
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Posted: 3/13/2015 11:27:34 AM EDT
[#14]
So I am in the same situation as most others.
I have a stripped lower that has never even had so much as a spring put into it. I purchased it about two years ago before everything went crazy with the push to ban ARs AGAIN. I understand that if it's never been build as a rifle, I can build it as a pistol. However, according to the ATF, that needs to have been verified somehow (such as by the manufacturer). So technically even though we build these, we could still be harassed by that anti gun cop that just wants to be an ass. I understand no one here is an ATF agent and no one can define law, but I was just wondering if anyone has ever had issues with a LEO at the range or elsewhere when using their AR pistol that is not specifically marked "pistol"? |
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Posted: 3/13/2015 11:34:34 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rha600:
So I am in the same situation as most others. I have a stripped lower that has never even had so much as a spring put into it. I purchased it about two years ago before everything went crazy with the push to ban ARs AGAIN. I understand that if it's never been build as a rifle, I can build it as a pistol. However, according to the ATF, that needs to have been verified somehow (such as by the manufacturer). So technically even though we build these, we could still be harassed by that anti gun cop that just wants to be an ass. I understand no one here is an ATF agent and no one can define law, but I was just wondering if anyone has ever had issues with a LEO at the range or elsewhere when using their AR pistol that is not specifically marked "pistol"? You'll find that other than people on ARFCom, no one cares. |
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USA
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Posted: 3/13/2015 11:47:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Yelpers]
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JoshAston:
You'll find that other than people on ARFCom, no one cares. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JoshAston:
Originally Posted By rha600:
So I am in the same situation as most others. I have a stripped lower that has never even had so much as a spring put into it. I purchased it about two years ago before everything went crazy with the push to ban ARs AGAIN. I understand that if it's never been build as a rifle, I can build it as a pistol. However, according to the ATF, that needs to have been verified somehow (such as by the manufacturer). So technically even though we build these, we could still be harassed by that anti gun cop that just wants to be an ass. I understand no one here is an ATF agent and no one can define law, but I was just wondering if anyone has ever had issues with a LEO at the range or elsewhere when using their AR pistol that is not specifically marked "pistol"? You'll find that other than people on ARFCom, no one cares. Life is full of probabilities. The chance of that being a singular issue not associated with another charge is probably close to 0%. The burden for criminal proceeding is on the prosecution. And if you bought it as a receiver, any records available would more than likely indicate that, the most obvious one, a receiver leaving the factory without an excise tax being paid. |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 9:39:14 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Yelpers:
Life is full of probabilities. The chance of that being a singular issue not associated with another charge is probably close to 0%. The burden for criminal proceeding is on the prosecution. And if you bought it as a receiver, any records available would more than likely indicate that, the most obvious one, a receiver leaving the factory without an excise tax being paid. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Yelpers:
Originally Posted By JoshAston:
Originally Posted By rha600:
So I am in the same situation as most others. I have a stripped lower that has never even had so much as a spring put into it. I purchased it about two years ago before everything went crazy with the push to ban ARs AGAIN. I understand that if it's never been build as a rifle, I can build it as a pistol. However, according to the ATF, that needs to have been verified somehow (such as by the manufacturer). So technically even though we build these, we could still be harassed by that anti gun cop that just wants to be an ass. I understand no one here is an ATF agent and no one can define law, but I was just wondering if anyone has ever had issues with a LEO at the range or elsewhere when using their AR pistol that is not specifically marked "pistol"? You'll find that other than people on ARFCom, no one cares. Life is full of probabilities. The chance of that being a singular issue not associated with another charge is probably close to 0%. The burden for criminal proceeding is on the prosecution. And if you bought it as a receiver, any records available would more than likely indicate that, the most obvious one, a receiver leaving the factory without an excise tax being paid. At MCSC we have several folks show up with AR pistols, and there are a lot of LEO that utilize our range. I've been there 5 years as RSO and never seen anyone questioned or approached other than to compliment the build. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 3/30/2015 12:18:41 AM EDT
[#18]
Can a pistol be built on a 80% receiver? I just finished a ep lower and i was thinking about building a pistol, just need to know if its ok
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Posted: 3/30/2015 4:30:34 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By stag51:
Can a pistol be built on a 80% receiver? I just finished a ep lower and i was thinking about building a pistol, just need to know if its ok Yes |
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Posted: 4/12/2015 10:43:13 PM EDT
[#20]
 [/URL][/img]
10.5 YHM Fluted Barrel Lower Aero Upper DPMS Troy Alpha Rail Troy Battle Sight Folding Sig Brace KAK Industies Buffer Tube A2 Flash Hidder CMMG Lower Parts Kit Aimpoint PRO Enforce WML Thorn Tail Offset Mount Badger Ordnance Charging Handle MagPul B.A.D YHM Take Down Pins |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 4/15/2015 11:01:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: rha600]
[#21]
N00b question.
Aren't the 4473 forms supposed to be destroyed (maybe just in certain states) after a certain period of time so as the government can not form a gun registry? Of course that is assuming you actually trust them to do so, but that's a whole other discussions. My point being, if I bought a lower two years ago, even if the form wasn't checked as "other", how would anyone even know? edit: and if the above is not true, can you go back to the store you bought the lower from and ask so see the original form to make sure? |
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Posted: 4/15/2015 11:37:52 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rha600:
N00b question. Aren't the 4473 forms supposed to be destroyed (maybe just in certain states) after a certain period of time so as the government can not form a gun registry? Of course that is assuming you actually trust them to do so, but that's a whole other discussions. My point being, if I bought a lower two years ago, even if the form wasn't checked as "other", how would anyone even know? edit: and if the above is not true, can you go back to the store you bought the lower from and ask so see the original form to make sure? They're maintained for several decades, I don't recall the exact length of time, but it's a long time. Yes you can go back to the store and ask to see your form, whether or not they show it to you is up to them. None of this matters as what the 4473 is marked is completely irrelevant. All that matters is that the lower was never built up as a rifle. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 4/15/2015 3:56:26 PM EDT
[#23]
Thanks.
As far as the 2nd part, you can't prove the lower was never built as a rifle. That being said, burden of proof SHOULD be on them to prove that it was, but you know how our government works...hell the ATF can toss you in jail for even having the parts to make a SBR even though you've never done it. Seems a little "Minority Reportish" to me. |
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Posted: 4/15/2015 4:19:53 PM EDT
[#24]
If the FFL that sold / transferred the virgin lower to you marked the form as anything but "OTHER" then they screwed up, not you. If they marked it pistol, it was still a mistake, even if the lower has pistol engraved on it. A stripped , or even a complete lower, that did not come into their shop with a rifle upper attatched is ALWAYS "OTHER" by Federal law. Your state (California?) may have other issues.
All you have to do is take a digital picture of it as a virgin, which had the date, time, and location encoded automatically on most smart phones, and then again as a pistol and you have "proof" that it was a pistol 1st. Of course if you finished it as a rifle 1st and posted pictures of it on Facebook , well that kind of screws things for you. But as one of the other posters said I'm also a NRA RSO and I have never seen or even heard of anyone being hassled for it. If you use it in a bank robbery they might tack on an additional charge for it but that would be the least of your worries at that point. |
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Posted: 4/15/2015 4:29:33 PM EDT
[#25]
"The dealer also records all information from the Form 4473 into a required "bound-book".[3] A dealer must keep this on file at least 20 years, and is required to surrender the log to the ATF upon retirement from the firearms business. The ATF is allowed to inspect, as well as request a copy of, the Form 4473 from the dealer during the course of a criminal investigation"
If the FFL goes out of business the records are turned over to the BATF and may be never destroyed, ever. Of course they may be in the bottom of a salt mine. |
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Posted: 4/18/2015 10:26:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: iNeXile556]
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Friar_Tuck: Thank you to all who have answered the same question over and over in many various forms! I have spent weeks reading through these threads and BATF documents posted. I just received 2 new stripped lowers, and both were registered "other" receiver on the 4473s If I understand all the documents, it only makes sense to assemble both as pistols first, regardless of what I intend them to be when I am through with them. I haven't seen any suggestions as to how to possibly document that they were assembled as pistols first, such as time stamped photos or something. I suppose it is really a non issue, but was just curious if anyone has come up with an idea. Thanks, Jim This can also be applied to the people that build a "pistol" at the time they file a form 1 for a SBR. The intended firearm is a SBR from the start so technically it is not ever truly a pistol. If you build a pistol and then later decide to form 1 it then your ok. But when I read people post about "building it as a pistol while I wait for my stamp", I cringe a bit. They fully intend (and document such on a public forum) to build a SBR from the start, which means they intend the build to be a shoulder fired weapon. I have never heard of anyone being harassed in anyway about doing it, but in my opinion it would be wise practice a little opsec when building just as a precaution. You never know what might bite you in the ass later down the line. As far as documenting goes we are on the honor system. Just like paying your taxes. We are expected to follow the existing rules. Do people cheat on their taxes? Do they all get caught? OPSEC/PERSEC is the key. CYA. |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 5/12/2015 6:15:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: artener]
[#27]
Article to BATF approval of shouldering using the SIG arm brace (apologies if it's been previously posted), since it's only a mis-use of the manufacturer's product/accessory design and not a re-design of the product/accessory.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/04/foghorn/breaking-atf-confirms-firing-ar-15-pistol-shoulder-ok/ |
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Posted: 5/14/2015 6:24:34 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By artener: Article to BATF approval of shouldering using the SIG arm brace (apologies if it's been previously posted), since it's only a mis-use of the manufacturer's product/accessory design and not a re-design of the product/accessory. http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/04/foghorn/breaking-atf-confirms-firing-ar-15-pistol-shoulder-ok/ |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 6/30/2015 1:11:09 PM EDT
[#29]
So by using an arm brace in any way besides strapping it to your arm constitutes "redesign" because that is what it's designed for. Since a pistol buffer tube is not specifically designed to be used a certain way than technically you could shoulder a pistol with a standard buffer tube all day long and it's still considered a pistol?
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Posted: 6/30/2015 4:14:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: JoeJeeps]
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bw77:
So by using an arm brace in any way besides strapping it to your arm constitutes "redesign" because that is what it's designed for. Since a pistol buffer tube is not specifically designed to be used a certain way than technically you could shoulder a pistol with a standard buffer tube all day long and it's still considered a pistol? Not exactly. You can use it pretty much any way other than shouldering it. So you could also use it for a cheekweld for instance. Just make sure you keep at least .0001" between any brace and your shoulder. ETA: The Shockwave Brace doesn't even come with straps and it was approved by the ATF as a brace. |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 7/16/2015 9:43:18 AM EDT
[#31]
If I am following all of this correctly, then the AR pistol I just built on a virgin receiver with a 10.5" barrel and is 26.5" overall, not including the flash hider, is a pistol, unless I add a vertical grip, then it becomes a firearm. I want to keep it as a pistol, so I can carry it legally with my HCP, should I so desire.
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GA, USA
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Posted: 8/17/2015 8:15:33 PM EDT
[#32]
Go to youtube and watch Military Arms Channel's video on mag test of CZ Bren 805 and Sig Brace legality. While it's not a legal opinion, he was at SHOT and heard the ATF's explanation of their latest ruling that makes more sense than a lot of the hype and hysteria.
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IN, USA
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Posted: 8/25/2015 11:25:49 AM EDT
[#33]
thank you rawheadjim, that was exactly what i was looking for. Concise and helpful 14 minutes.
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GA, USA
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Posted: 10/3/2015 12:17:57 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rawheadjim:
Go to youtube and watch Military Arms Channel's video on mag test of CZ Bren 805 and Sig Brace legality. While it's not a legal opinion, he was at SHOT and heard the ATF's explanation of their latest ruling that makes more sense than a lot of the hype and hysteria. very good video. thanks alot for the link |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 10/10/2015 6:56:47 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rawheadjim:
Go to youtube and watch Military Arms Channel's video on mag test of CZ Bren 805 and Sig Brace legality. While it's not a legal opinion, he was at SHOT and heard the ATF's explanation of their latest ruling that makes more sense than a lot of the hype and hysteria. This video should be mentioned in all threads discussing this matter. I can't believe people struggle so badly to understand the whole idea, but this guy explained it well. Don't be stupid and don't rub it in anyone's face guys! |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 10/13/2015 5:07:10 PM EDT
[#36]
I'm new to AR pistols and would like to build one. You can usually pick up a lower receiver at the local gun shows in our area from an individual but how would I know whether it's a pistol or rifle lower?
If the lower says 'Multi' does that cover the requirements? Thanks |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 10/14/2015 8:35:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Timmy2Knives]
[#37]
Personally, I would not buy a lower for a pistol build from an individual at a show. It's too much unknown for certain. Gotta take their word for it.
(Plus, lowers are not hard to find cheap now elsewhere.) |
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USA
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Posted: 12/13/2015 3:29:50 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Timmy2Knives:
This video should be mentioned in all threads discussing this matter. I can't believe people struggle so badly to understand the whole idea, but this guy explained it well. Don't be stupid and don't rub it in anyone's face guys! Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Timmy2Knives:
Originally Posted By rawheadjim:
Go to youtube and watch Military Arms Channel's video on mag test of CZ Bren 805 and Sig Brace legality. While it's not a legal opinion, he was at SHOT and heard the ATF's explanation of their latest ruling that makes more sense than a lot of the hype and hysteria. This video should be mentioned in all threads discussing this matter. I can't believe people struggle so badly to understand the whole idea, but this guy explained it well. Don't be stupid and don't rub it in anyone's face guys! The video in question Interesting he comments that the AFG is still potentially a hazy legality. I thought this was established as A OK |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 1/8/2016 11:15:06 PM EDT
[#39]
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PA, USA
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Posted: 10/27/2016 12:22:19 AM EDT
[#40]
Jason since I am new I thought after reading your posts and replies I'd ask for your assistance. I purchased a striped lower and on the paperwork it is labeled "RECEIVER"...does that mean I can or can not use my new 10.5" upper on that particular lower?
The lower was brand new purchased from a local reputable gun dealer. I also have a new upper I could use to make a rifle, but the pistol is simply more intriguing. Any assistance is appreciated. Jeff |
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IN, USA
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Posted: 10/27/2017 8:48:13 PM EDT
[#41]
Hi,
I might have missed the information, but is an MLOK AFG legal on an AR pistol? I know the picatinny version is, but what about the MLOK version that looks quite different? Never know with the doofus working at the ATF... |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 11/27/2017 1:09:35 AM EDT
[#42]
Anyone have advice on a magpul angled fore grip and legality regarding BATFA? My OAL is 25 inches end of buffer tube to front of barrel without muzzle device. thanks
ATTR |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 11/27/2017 1:16:09 AM EDT
[#43]
Angled foregrips (AFG) are legal on a pistol, and how they attach (rail, m-lok, keymod) doesn't matter.
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FL, USA
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Posted: 1/11/2018 4:35:28 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ztug:
If the FFL that sold / transferred the virgin lower to you marked the form as anything but "OTHER" then they screwed up, not you. If they marked it pistol, it was still a mistake, even if the lower has pistol engraved on it. A stripped , or even a complete lower, that did not come into their shop with a rifle upper attatched is ALWAYS "OTHER" by Federal law. Your state (California?) may have other issues. All you have to do is take a digital picture of it as a virgin, which had the date, time, and location encoded automatically on most smart phones, and then again as a pistol and you have "proof" that it was a pistol 1st. Of course if you finished it as a rifle 1st and posted pictures of it on Facebook , well that kind of screws things for you. But as one of the other posters said I'm also a NRA RSO and I have never seen or even heard of anyone being hassled for it. If you use it in a bank robbery they might tack on an additional charge for it but that would be the least of your worries at that point. |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 11/25/2018 9:25:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: splbass17]
[#45]
I just bought a LMT Defender 2000 lower. It has never been mounted to an upper and but came complete with a rifle buttstock.
I am going to use this LMT lower with my Geissele 10.3-inch URGI upper. The LMT lower will become a pistol. Question is, the rifle buttstock that is on it now, after I remove it, can I keep a rifle buffer tube and just swap the current stock with a brace? Or does a pistol brace require me to use one of those smooth buffer tubes? I thought I heard you have to use a smooth buffer with a brace BUT I have seen adjustable braces lately, so not sure what the law is. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 11/29/2018 1:00:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Tucson]
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Griswald:
I'm new to AR pistols and would like to build one. You can usually pick up a lower receiver at the local gun shows in our area from an individual but how would I know whether it's a pistol or rifle lower? If the lower says 'Multi' does that cover the requirements? Thanks I do know that "Multi" on your lower is an indication of the round that the firearm will shot. "Multi" means it is designed or can be designed to shoot any number of different types of ammunition. You can configure the weapon to fire 9mm or 5.56x45 for example, or have interchangeable upper receivers so that it can switch between 5.56 and 300BO. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 11/29/2018 1:00:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Tucson]
[#47]
Duplicate post, please delete/remove
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LA, USA
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Posted: 12/21/2018 9:41:38 AM EDT
[#48]
Hey guys I'm new here. This is my second AR build (first pistol build), and im just looking for advice/opinions on things that maybe could be done for around $100 or less to help improve looks/functionality. Thanks!
 
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AL, USA
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Posted: 12/26/2018 12:41:01 AM EDT
[#49]
I searched through thread, and will continue.... but to my question....
I bought a Sharps bros warthog stripped lower, pistol lower parts kit from PSA with a brace to build into an AR15 pistol. If I were to remove the 8" .556 barrel that I currently have and replace it with a 16" .450 bushmaster , I would still have an AR15 pistol, correct? If I were to use 16" .450 bushmaster barreled pistol for hunting in areas where rifles were not allowed but pistols of any caliber are, how would I defend that this weapon is a pistol and not a SBR? Would the pistol brace be enough to argue as proof? I am sure I am "skating on thin ice" with this logic, but as long as I follow the "letter of the law" Im ok with that. |
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USA
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Posted: 1/4/2019 10:21:44 PM EDT
[#50]
hey guys,
what's the shortest buffer tube I can get away with on a 9mm/.45acp AR pistol? I've built up an endcapped off .22LR pistol, I know a 9mm/45 will still need some buffer area, but is there a short option out there that isn't QUITE as obscenely priced as the DFA Modified Cycle System?? |
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