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Posted: 10/24/2015 8:04:04 PM EDT
| I am about to buy one of PSA's PA-10's but need some advice on barrels. Pros and cons on SS 416R and Melonite and what you would buy yourself. I had a SS before and liked it but know nothing about melonite. Thanks. |
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The Melonited barrel with 4140/4150 chromemoly as the base barrel material will last longer than any other barrel material .
BUT it is imperative to clean the barrel very well before shooting and that isn't just one or two swipes with a brush and jag, I spend a minimum of 3 hours on every melonited barrel removing the residual salts left on the surface of the bore. With proper care they are as accurate as any other barrel but with a much longer lifespan. |
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dont quote me but i keep hearing that SS is better for precision? Day in day out that is correct if the barrel maker is good. They will tend to shoot very well for a long time and then die where the non-SS wil shoot well but slowly degrade in accuracy. Meloniting on the CM will last a longtime and not be as demanding in the process specs as the chrome will since it is not really a coating and doesn't take up bore space. I've shot with guy shooting Melonited 243 top end barrels. They found about a 30% barrel life accuracy life on them that being around 0.5 MOA at 500 yards. They had four barrels done and shot them out, it was a whole shooting family, and while it did help they felt the $$ for application on their barrels was not worth the return. Greg |
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What? They're either Chrome Moly or Stainless Steel. Unless you're talking about a SS lining only. Quoted:
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As vs melonite ss vs chromoly ss....chromoly would be most durable imho and prob equally accurate What? They're either Chrome Moly or Stainless Steel. Unless you're talking about a SS lining only. My bag.. Ss vs melonite ss vs chromoly melonite..... |
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dont quote me but i keep hearing that SS is better for precision? Stainless steels used by barrel makers are much softer, which means it's much easier for them to bore a more straight hole through the metal pipe. Chromoly is better, stronger steel, but it is more difficult to cut true through, so this is why you see so many top end barrel makers using stainless. There are varying degrees of stainless steel as well, including hardness. Krieger's and Bartlein's have some of the hardest stainless steel, which is why they last longer. Melonite is a process, just one of the names for ferritic nitrocarburizing, which diffuses nitrogen and carbon in the steel to the surface, creating a much harder surface. |
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Stainless steels used by barrel makers are much softer, which means it's much easier for them to bore a more straight hole through the metal pipe. Chromoly is better, stronger steel, but it is more difficult to cut true through, so this is why you see so many top end barrel makers using stainless. There are varying degrees of stainless steel as well, including hardness. Krieger's and Bartlein's have some of the hardest stainless steel, which is why they last longer. Melonite is a process, just one of the names for ferritic nitrocarburizing, which diffuses nitrogen and carbon in the steel to the surface, creating a much harder surface. Quoted:
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dont quote me but i keep hearing that SS is better for precision? Stainless steels used by barrel makers are much softer, which means it's much easier for them to bore a more straight hole through the metal pipe. Chromoly is better, stronger steel, but it is more difficult to cut true through, so this is why you see so many top end barrel makers using stainless. There are varying degrees of stainless steel as well, including hardness. Krieger's and Bartlein's have some of the hardest stainless steel, which is why they last longer. Melonite is a process, just one of the names for ferritic nitrocarburizing, which diffuses nitrogen and carbon in the steel to the surface, creating a much harder surface. You bring up a point for clarification. If SS is softer than CM barrels then why do SS barrel last longer than unlined Chrome Moly barrels? |
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You bring up a point for clarification. If SS is softer than CM barrels then why do SS barrel last longer than unlined Chrome Moly barrels? Quoted:
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dont quote me but i keep hearing that SS is better for precision? Stainless steels used by barrel makers are much softer, which means it's much easier for them to bore a more straight hole through the metal pipe. Chromoly is better, stronger steel, but it is more difficult to cut true through, so this is why you see so many top end barrel makers using stainless. There are varying degrees of stainless steel as well, including hardness. Krieger's and Bartlein's have some of the hardest stainless steel, which is why they last longer. Melonite is a process, just one of the names for ferritic nitrocarburizing, which diffuses nitrogen and carbon in the steel to the surface, creating a much harder surface. You bring up a point for clarification. If SS is softer than CM barrels then why do SS barrel last longer than unlined Chrome Moly barrels? They don't. When we talk about barrel life in Stainless pipes, we're usually talking about accuracy life. There's a reason why the military uses Chromoly-vanadium barrels with chrome lining in machineguns. Stainless barrels are also usually not rated for full auto fire in several examples I have seen. Nitrocarburized barrels are also usually not rated for full auto, unless they are done using one of the more rare processes like SIG does on the 550 series. |
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How about for precision rifles versus full auto? Any difference in the results? Older MG-rated barrels (M14) had a thicker chrome lining than the "regular" barrels. What results? Accuracy or round count? Minute of X-RING at 1000 yards is far different than minute of torso at that range. If you want to head shoot prairie dogs at 300 yards chances are a non-lined barrel made by a good company will be more successful than a chrome lined mass produced tube. The SS match can go a long time meeting most shooting needs. They don't take kindly to mag dump abuse but can still deliver after judious use. Greg |
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They don't. When we talk about barrel life in Stainless pipes, we're usually talking about accuracy life. There's a reason why the military uses Chromoly-vanadium barrels with chrome lining in machineguns. Stainless barrels are also usually not rated for full auto fire in several examples I have seen. Nitrocarburized barrels are also usually not rated for full auto, unless they are done using one of the more rare processes like SIG does on the 550 series. Quoted:
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dont quote me but i keep hearing that SS is better for precision? Stainless steels used by barrel makers are much softer, which means it's much easier for them to bore a more straight hole through the metal pipe. Chromoly is better, stronger steel, but it is more difficult to cut true through, so this is why you see so many top end barrel makers using stainless. There are varying degrees of stainless steel as well, including hardness. Krieger's and Bartlein's have some of the hardest stainless steel, which is why they last longer. Melonite is a process, just one of the names for ferritic nitrocarburizing, which diffuses nitrogen and carbon in the steel to the surface, creating a much harder surface. You bring up a point for clarification. If SS is softer than CM barrels then why do SS barrel last longer than unlined Chrome Moly barrels? They don't. When we talk about barrel life in Stainless pipes, we're usually talking about accuracy life. There's a reason why the military uses Chromoly-vanadium barrels with chrome lining in machineguns. Stainless barrels are also usually not rated for full auto fire in several examples I have seen. Nitrocarburized barrels are also usually not rated for full auto, unless they are done using one of the more rare processes like SIG does on the 550 series. Perhaps but we're talking civilians with guns more than likely so no full auto. I was reading up on SS vs whatever. I had always thought the SS barrels were rated for longer wear than the unlined equivalent. I guess it depends on what you consider longer wearing. From what I can tell the SS will slowly lose accuracy over time but for a dedicated shooter will still be better, accuracy wise, over time vs the standard chrome lined barrel. Barrel dependent of course. I never realized SS barrels(416, not 416R) had the cold temp issues. |
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Perhaps but we're talking civilians with guns more than likely so no full auto. I was reading up on SS vs whatever. I had always thought the SS barrels were rated for longer wear than the unlined equivalent. I guess it depends on what you consider longer wearing. From what I can tell the SS will slowly lose accuracy over time but for a dedicated shooter will still be better, accuracy wise, over time vs the standard chrome lined barrel. Barrel dependent of course. I never realized SS barrels(416, not 416R) had the cold temp issues. Quoted:
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dont quote me but i keep hearing that SS is better for precision? Stainless steels used by barrel makers are much softer, which means it's much easier for them to bore a more straight hole through the metal pipe. Chromoly is better, stronger steel, but it is more difficult to cut true through, so this is why you see so many top end barrel makers using stainless. There are varying degrees of stainless steel as well, including hardness. Krieger's and Bartlein's have some of the hardest stainless steel, which is why they last longer. Melonite is a process, just one of the names for ferritic nitrocarburizing, which diffuses nitrogen and carbon in the steel to the surface, creating a much harder surface. You bring up a point for clarification. If SS is softer than CM barrels then why do SS barrel last longer than unlined Chrome Moly barrels? They don't. When we talk about barrel life in Stainless pipes, we're usually talking about accuracy life. There's a reason why the military uses Chromoly-vanadium barrels with chrome lining in machineguns. Stainless barrels are also usually not rated for full auto fire in several examples I have seen. Nitrocarburized barrels are also usually not rated for full auto, unless they are done using one of the more rare processes like SIG does on the 550 series. Perhaps but we're talking civilians with guns more than likely so no full auto. I was reading up on SS vs whatever. I had always thought the SS barrels were rated for longer wear than the unlined equivalent. I guess it depends on what you consider longer wearing. From what I can tell the SS will slowly lose accuracy over time but for a dedicated shooter will still be better, accuracy wise, over time vs the standard chrome lined barrel. Barrel dependent of course. I never realized SS barrels(416, not 416R) had the cold temp issues. Quite a difference with that R. Most top barrel makers use 416R in their products. Greg |
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Quite a difference with that R. Most top barrel makers use 416R in their products. Greg _______________________________ WTF... technically, sir. Quoted without permission by Michael Moyer on the same subject: A. To understand this subject, one must understand high-strength steel. For the record, I am a metallurgist by trade, and heat treat Quality Manager so I know enough about these steels. I do not like AISI 416 SS for gun barrels and I will explain why: To achieve the high strength the steel must possess to withstand the forces produced during firing, AISI 416 SS and/or AISI 4140/4150/4340 must be austenitized, quenched and tempered. After quenching, the average 416 SS will be about 40 Hardness Rockwell C (HRC) and 4000 grades about 50 HRC (To benefit those who do not know this scale, a file will be about 60 HRC, and a hammer will be about 30 HRC). In the "as quenched" state, the material is brittle and unstable. Tempering is employed to reduce the hardness to a "tough" state and stabilize the newly formed martensitic structure. In the case of 416 SS, and to get the hardness to about HRC 30 so it is able to be machined, one must temper at about 1075 °F. This is not desirable as 416 SS shows a marked reduction in impact resistance when tempered between 700 °F and 1100 °F (temper embrittlement). It will also show a marked decrease in corrosion resistance. 416 SS does still, however, exhibit better wear characteristics and corrosion resistance than the 4000 series high-strength grades mostly due to the higher chromium content. It is also readily available, inexpensive, and it looks good so manufacturers use it. The big problem though is that it is not as free-machining as the 4000 series grades so generally sulphur is added to alleviate that problem. What you then have is a microstructure with "sulphide stringers" in it that has been tempered in a bad tempering range so the impact resistance of the steel is very poor. Failures happen, and are not really wide-spread, but I will not buy a 416 SS barrel for that reason. The AISI 4140/4150/4340 grades do not have this temper embrittlement problem, and show superior impact resistance when tempered to about 30 HRC. They are cheaper to buy in a production rifle. One who takes good care of a firearm will never have any major corrosion and wear issues with the 4000 grade steel barrels anyway. And if you do use it an awful lot and it begins to wear out, well then you got your money's worth from the product, just buy a new barrel. Nothing lasts forever anyway. As a note, AISI 410 SS is a better alternative to 416 SS as is does not generally have the sulphur issue, however the temper embrittlement issue is still a concern. Here is my opinion: Unless you are competition shooter, buy the non-stainless grade barrels. If you are a professional match shooter find a good AISI 17-4PH barrel as it is a much better choice if one wants corrosion resistance, wear resistance, and impact resistance. For my money and safety, it is a 4000-series material. Respectfully submitted, Mike M. Michael Moyer - Green Lane, Pennsylvania ___________________________________ 1) As for me, I love ARMALITE 20" A4 chrome-lined barrels since 1999. Never had one that couldn't shoot sub-0.5" five shot groups @ 100yds consistently with fodder that it liked. EDITED: Only stating AR-10A4 20' barrels. Their SS barrels ain't shabby, either. 2) Every melonited gas tube that I purchased was a wet noodle POS and I had to go get standard BCM, ARMALITE or Wilson Combat straight tubes to replace with. 3) A few British MEs, that I have an acquaintance with, also having minors in metallurgy hate the melonite process for SS of any kind. And they have stated that anyone using ammoniated solvents down their bores AND have used chlorinated aerosols to flush them out has really ate out the sulphur strings in the bore and weakened the "piss out of the damn pipe". {talking about 416R pipe} 4) McMillan wouldn't make anyone a SS sporter profile barrel because he couldn't control the environment that the barrel would be used. Hint: Montana or Alaskan winters. And he didn't clarify 410, 416 or 416R, just no SS at all. |
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