AR Sponsor
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 6.5 Grendel Questions (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 9/11/2014 7:31:25 AM EDT
|
I'm interested in getting into 6.5 Grendel build. I read up on it a bit but many information was from various sources, some contradicting each other, so I was hoping to get some clarification and consolidation. Is it true that 6.5 Grendel is best long range cartridge compatible with standard AR 15 lower? How is the JT 6.5 Grendel SS barrel and bolt? I read a thread on some forum that 6.5 Grendel fare better in windy conditions compared to 308 Win. Is this true? How well does it perform in hunting situation? Compared to 6.8 SPC and 308 Win? |
|
Well there is a lot to your question but also a lot of variables.
Best is hard to determine and will vary greatly on what your goal is. The grendel is a fantastic round that will remain supersonic well past 1000 yards. The speed and ballistic coefficient of the 6.5 projectile does limit wind drift but like any projectile is not immune to it. The lighter weight of the grendel is going to be the limit when comparing it to the 308 as well as the prohibitive cost to non reloaders. If you think about the slightly higher velocities of the grendel it may seem to make up the ftlbs lost due to weight however this doesn't stand true when comparing the 123grain hornday to a 168 grain 30 until a distance that would be well beyond most's comfortable point of taking a shot on an animal. I am a big fan of the grendel, due to using the lighter weight ar15 as opposed to ar10. The wide variety of projectiles available as well as use of common powders. It performs very well in both short barrel and 20"+ benchrest rifles. If your goal is shots within 200 yards on medium sized game than any of the three you mentioned are perfectly well suited. The difference is going to be cost and availability. |
|
There will be a couple guys come in here shortly and crap all over this thread, but here is my real world data on paper.
I have yet to shoot an animal with the Grendel. I am shooting a TBAC 30 BA on both rifles. I haven't hand loaded for the Grendel yet. I shot these groups to verify zero after taking the Rem apart to install a Timney, and taking the adjustable gas block off of the Grendel and installing a none adjustable block. I also removed and reinstalled the scope on the Grendel to shoot a group with a 223. Was very happy to see the zero hold true (Larue mount). I adjusted the 308 1/4 minute right for the second group. Wind was from the 6 and was shifting from 5-7. I shot both rifles in an Accuracy first class out to almost 1200 yards. Both got there and were hitting 12" gongs. The Grendel drops to subsonic before the 308. At 2500 DA and 89 degrees, the 308 is subsonic at 1059 yrds and the 6.5 at 984 yrds. I am in love with both rifles.... 308 is Rem 700 PSS 26" factory barrel 175 SMK 2674 fps hand loads 6.5 Grendel is a home build 20" Krieger barrel SAAMI 6.5 Grendel chamber with Maxim bolt 123 SST 2438 fps factory Hornady Comparison 
Grendel group 1 
Grendel group 2 
308 
|
|
Is it true that 6.5 Grendel is best long range cartridge compatible with standard AR 15 lower?
This is subjective. Without knowing all of the parameters under which one is making comparisons, this is impossible to answer. I have had 3 Grendels, and now I have none (because I bought them without determining my shooting parameters before purchasing). How is the JT 6.5 Grendel SS barrel and bolt? JT makes good stuff. I wouldn't be worried about using their equipment. I read a thread on some forum that 6.5 Grendel fare better in windy conditions compared to 308 Win. Is this true? Yes. However, if you do not compensate for a 10mph cross wind, you will still miss your target at 500 yards. You will miss by less than a .308, but how much does that matter? How well does it perform in hunting situation? Compared to 6.8 SPC and 308 Win? Hunting what, where, at what range and in what conditions? Again this is subjective and open for too much debate until all of the variables are accounted for. |
|
Quoted:
Is their factory brass available? Quoted:
Quoted:
Nice groups , but I would assume that they have more to do with you then the grendel , step up and pick up H's 270ar as it spanks the grendel Is their factory brass available? Nope , but to a reloader that's not a big deal |
|
The best long distance cartridge on an AR15 lower is the .270AR by ARPerformance.
It is a wildcat and you have to reload for it. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_121/617424_270AR_SPR__New_AR_15_cartridge_coming_this_fall_.html Compared to a .308 a 6.5G as well as the 6.8 SPC cant compete past 375 to 400 yards for hunting. Either the 6.5G or the 6.8 SPC are target guns only past 400 yards. The 6.5G and 6.8 SPC are really a Chevy vs Ford debate. The 6.8 is more available. According to a poll recently done here for deer hunting. 1. .308 2. 6.8 3. other Also worth looking at is the NextGen from ARPerformance. .308 with AR15 weight. If you decide to go with the 6.5G it will do fine hunting to 375 to 400 yards on medium game, and targets beyond that. |
|
Quoted:
Is it true that 6.5 Grendel is best long range cartridge compatible with standard AR 15 lower? Yes. How well does it perform in hunting situation? Compared to 6.8 SPC...? Judging by anecdotal reports on 68forums and the 65grendel forum, both rounds perform about the same on game, to about the same distance. |
|
Quoted:
Compared to a .308 a 6.5G as well as the 6.8 SPC cant compete past 375 to 400 yards for hunting. Agreed Either the 6.5G or the 6.8 SPC are target guns only past 400 yards. I disagree. Shot placement makes a big difference. Explain what your perimeters are for a hunting round. Refer to the real world chart I have posted above and look at the ft lbs The 6.5G and 6.8 SPC are really a Chevy vs Ford debate. The 6.8 is more available. Three of the local Academys have Grendel and 6.8 on the shelf. I think there currently are more choices for 6.8 though. If you decide to go with the 6.5G it will do fine hunting to 375 to 400 yards on medium game, and targets beyond that. Agreed, but refer to the above post. Not sure what your parameters are for a hunting round. I am interested to read more about this 270 AR.... ETA: I should also Remind you that I have yet to put a 6.5 round into an animal. I have however shot smaller calibers (223 & 22.250) into larger animals successfully when others say it cannot be done. |
|
Quoted:
There will be a couple guys come in here shortly and crap all over this thread, but here is my real world data on paper. The Grendel drops to subsonic before the 308. At 2500 DA and 89 degrees, the 308 is subsonic at 1059 yrds and the 6.5 at 984 yrds. 308 is Rem 700 PSS 26" factory barrel 175 SMK 2674 fps hand loads 6.5 Grendel is a home build 20" Krieger barrel SAAMI 6.5 Grendel chamber with Maxim bolt 123 SST 2438 fps factory Hornady Jeez. Different barrel lengths. Different bullet types. Hand load vs factory ammo. You're comparing oranges to watermelons. 
Try comparing your .308 SMK hand load to the 123gr SMK in Grendel hand loads fired from a 26" barrel, then see which goes subsonic first... |
|
Quoted:
Jeez. Different barrel lengths. Different bullet types. Hand load vs factory ammo. You're comparing oranges to watermelons.
Try comparing your .308 SMK hand load to the 123gr SMK in Grendel hand loads fired from a 26" barrel, then see which goes subsonic first... Quoted:
Quoted:
There will be a couple guys come in here shortly and crap all over this thread, but here is my real world data on paper. The Grendel drops to subsonic before the 308. At 2500 DA and 89 degrees, the 308 is subsonic at 1059 yrds and the 6.5 at 984 yrds. 308 is Rem 700 PSS 26" factory barrel 175 SMK 2674 fps hand loads 6.5 Grendel is a home build 20" Krieger barrel SAAMI 6.5 Grendel chamber with Maxim bolt 123 SST 2438 fps factory Hornady Jeez. Different barrel lengths. Different bullet types. Hand load vs factory ammo. You're comparing oranges to watermelons.
Try comparing your .308 SMK hand load to the 123gr SMK in Grendel hand loads fired from a 26" barrel, then see which goes subsonic first... If I had a Grendel bolt action I can pretty much guarantee it will be going faster than 2438 fps... |
|
Quoted:
I am interested to read more about this 270 AR.... ETA: I should also Remind you that I have yet to put a 6.5 round into an animal. I have however shot smaller calibers (223 & 22.250) into larger animals successfully when others say it cannot be done. Quoted:
Quoted:
Compared to a .308 a 6.5G as well as the 6.8 SPC cant compete past 375 to 400 yards for hunting. Agreed Either the 6.5G or the 6.8 SPC are target guns only past 400 yards. I disagree. Shot placement makes a big difference. Explain what your perimeters are for a hunting round. Refer to the real world chart I have posted above and look at the ft lbs The 6.5G and 6.8 SPC are really a Chevy vs Ford debate. The 6.8 is more available. Three of the local Academys have Grendel and 6.8 on the shelf. I think there currently are more choices for 6.8 though. If you decide to go with the 6.5G it will do fine hunting to 375 to 400 yards on medium game, and targets beyond that. Agreed, but refer to the above post. Not sure what your parameters are for a hunting round. I am interested to read more about this 270 AR.... ETA: I should also Remind you that I have yet to put a 6.5 round into an animal. I have however shot smaller calibers (223 & 22.250) into larger animals successfully when others say it cannot be done. Clean ethical kill is the parameters I consider. Not saying either couldn't kill farther, but neither has the energy past 400 for a quick clean kill IMHO. |
|
Quoted:
If I had a Grendel bolt action I can pretty much guarantee it will be going faster than 2438 fps... Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
There will be a couple guys come in here shortly and crap all over this thread, but here is my real world data on paper. The Grendel drops to subsonic before the 308. At 2500 DA and 89 degrees, the 308 is subsonic at 1059 yrds and the 6.5 at 984 yrds. 308 is Rem 700 PSS 26" factory barrel 175 SMK 2674 fps hand loads 6.5 Grendel is a home build 20" Krieger barrel SAAMI 6.5 Grendel chamber with Maxim bolt 123 SST 2438 fps factory Hornady Jeez. Different barrel lengths. Different bullet types. Hand load vs factory ammo. You're comparing oranges to watermelons.
Try comparing your .308 SMK hand load to the 123gr SMK in Grendel hand loads fired from a 26" barrel, then see which goes subsonic first... If I had a Grendel bolt action I can pretty much guarantee it will be going faster than 2438 fps... The OP is talking about an AR build, lets not derail this with fanboi stuff again please. I am an admitted 6.8 SPC fan, but I'm not going to beat my 6.8 drum here. |
|
Quoted:
Jeez. Different barrel lengths. Different bullet types. Hand load vs factory ammo. You're comparing oranges to watermelons.
Try comparing your .308 SMK hand load to the 123gr SMK in Grendel hand loads fired from a 26" barrel, then see which goes subsonic first... Quoted:
Jeez. Different barrel lengths. Different bullet types. Hand load vs factory ammo. You're comparing oranges to watermelons.
Try comparing your .308 SMK hand load to the 123gr SMK in Grendel hand loads fired from a 26" barrel, then see which goes subsonic first... Yes. You are very correct. Different rifles. BUT, 26" AR? Come on. REAL WORLD COMPARISON shows a slight advantage to the longer, larger 308. That should be a positive for the Grendel. Quoted:
The OP is talking about an AR build, lets not derail this with fanboi stuff again please. I am an admitted 6.8 SPC fan, but I'm not going to beat my 6.8 drum here. My point exactly. I am trying to show how even with 6" more barrel the 308 doesn't have that much more over the 6.5. I like shooting both rifles equally. |
|
Quoted:
I'm interested in getting into 6.5 Grendel build. I read up on it a bit but many information was from various sources, some contradicting each other, so I was hoping to get some clarification and consolidation. Is it true that 6.5 Grendel is best long range cartridge compatible with standard AR 15 lower? "STANDARD CALIBER" and COMMONLY AVAILABLE THEN YES. How is the JT 6.5 Grendel SS barrel and bolt? THAT WOULD BE A BASELINE BARREL, NOT THE BEST. I read a thread on some forum that 6.5 Grendel fare better in windy conditions compared to 308 Win. Is this true? NO. VELOCITY FROM A GRENDEL PLACES IT AT A DISADVANTAGE. THE BULLETS ARE BETTER THAN .308 IF DRIVEN FROM A LARGER CASE WHICH CAN TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THEIR HIGHER B.C. How well does it perform in hunting situation? Compared to 6.8 SPC and 308 Win? WITH PREMUIN HUNTING BULLETS 6.8 SPC AND 6.5 GRENDEL WILL WORK FINE. THEY ARE NOT .308"s. There are other AR-15 friendly wildcats (which is what the Grendel was considered to be ten years ago) that have better performance than the Grendel. Robert Whitley's 6mmAR, the 6mm WOA and the 6mm Hagar all push 107 grain match bullets around 2750 fps or a little faster from 26" barreled AR's. Ballistic coefficient is similar to Grendel 6.5 123 grain bullet at 250/300 fps faster. 5.56mm loaded with 77 grain SMK's is a very capable round out 800 or so yards. People like the sound of "1000 yards", but even .308's struggle there unless custom built with longer barrels and loaded with specialty 175 grain to 210 grain match bullets driven as fast as safety allows. Purpose built rifles and ammo are needed to do well past 900 yards. |
|
Quoted:
Yes. You are very correct. Different rifles. BUT, 26" AR? Come on. REAL WORLD COMPARISON shows a slight advantage to the longer, larger 308. That should be a positive for the Grendel. My point exactly. I am trying to show how even with 6" more barrel the 308 doesn't have that much more over the 6.5. I like shooting both rifles equally. Quoted:
Quoted:
Jeez. Different barrel lengths. Different bullet types. Hand load vs factory ammo. You're comparing oranges to watermelons.
Try comparing your .308 SMK hand load to the 123gr SMK in Grendel hand loads fired from a 26" barrel, then see which goes subsonic first... Yes. You are very correct. Different rifles. BUT, 26" AR? Come on. REAL WORLD COMPARISON shows a slight advantage to the longer, larger 308. That should be a positive for the Grendel. Quoted:
The OP is talking about an AR build, lets not derail this with fanboi stuff again please. I am an admitted 6.8 SPC fan, but I'm not going to beat my 6.8 drum here. My point exactly. I am trying to show how even with 6" more barrel the 308 doesn't have that much more over the 6.5. I like shooting both rifles equally. I find it interesting that you compare a 123 grain projectile to 175 grain projectile and say its comparing equally. I love my 6.8 and the Grendel is comparable to it. But the .308 smokes them both honestly. |
|
Quoted:
I'm interested in getting into 6.5 Grendel build. I read up on it a bit but many information was from various sources, some contradicting each other, so I was hoping to get some clarification and consolidation. Is it true that 6.5 Grendel is best long range cartridge compatible with standard AR 15 lower? How is the JT 6.5 Grendel SS barrel and bolt? I read a thread on some forum that 6.5 Grendel fare better in windy conditions compared to 308 Win. Is this true? How well does it perform in hunting situation? Compared to 6.8 SPC and 308 Win? You need to clarify what you'd be hunting and what would be the expected range(s) for your shot. In my neck of the woods, if I were hunting for whitetails with all my shots inside of 150 yards (and probably within a 50 to 100 yd window) I'd say that with a decent hunting bullet a 6.5, 6.8 or .308 would all do the job equally well. Obviously this cacluclus is very much dependent on the parameters. I would hazard a guess that for most hunting situations on most North American medium sized game that any of the three would work just fine. I've been researching variant calibers for a while, and at this point I'm down to either 6.5 or 6.8. Once I have the funds saved up to buy, I think for me, as a Southeastern Whitetail hunter, the decision is going to be made on price and availibility of parts and ammunition, not performance. ETA: "not performance" meaning I think either round will do everything I need it to do, both for punching paper and hunting game. |
|
Quoted:
I find it interesting that you compare a 123 grain projectile to 175 grain projectile and say its comparing equally. I love my 6.8 and the Grendel is comparable to it. But the .308 smokes them both honestly. I never said that it was an equal comparison. I never said one was better than the other. It is the two rifles that I own, that I have shot. The 175 and 123 bullets are what would be commonly used and where the two calibers shine. The 20" and 26" barrels would be common barrels... Why does anyone have to beat up the information I provided with the two rifles I own? I'm not going to build a 26" AR and I'm not going to build a 20" Bolt to prove the point. I was showing my data. If you don't like that then post your data to prove your point. I have nothing to argue as my data is true real life info proved on the range. |
|
You can also try your questions at the 6.5 Grendel Forum.
BTW, bigbear_98, I see what you were trying to do and appreciate it. Don't know why you got jumped for it. You're right, BOTH those guns are shooting really well! |
|
Here is the best comparison of 6.5 Grendel AR and 308 AR that I can provide.
Both rifles were sporting 18" Mid-gas Black Hole Weaponry barrels, SWFA 3-9x42 Mil-Quad scopes on high rings, and YHM suppressors, and both were shot on the same day in the same environments. The following are averages. 308 AR Factory loaded Federal Gold Metal Match 175 Sierra Match King 2494 FPS at muzzle 1582 ft lbs at muzzle .496 BC 100Y 2456 fps 2345 ft lbs 0.08" drift per mph full value cross wind 500Y 1879 fps 1372 ft lbs 56.5" drop 1.9" drift per mph .68 sec flight time 1000Y 1288 fps (speed of sound 1161) 645 ft lbs 369" drop 8.8" drift per mph 1.7 sec flight time 1200Y 1090 fps (speed of sound 1161) 462 ft lbs 623" drop 13.5" drift per mph 2.2 sec flight time 6.5 Grendel Factory loaded Hornady 123gr A-Max 2616 FPS at muzzle 2527 ft lbs at muzzle .510 BC (G1) 100Y 2343 fps 1500 ft lbs 0.08" drift per mph full value cross wind 500Y 1798 fps 882 ft lbs 63" drop 1.9" drift per mph .71 sec flight time 1000Y 1238 fps (speed of sound 1161) 419 ft lbs 406" drop 9" drift per mph 1.72 sec flight time 1200Y 1050 fps (speed of sound 1161) 301 ft lbs 683" drop 14" drift per mph 2.25 sec flight time Basically, the 6.5 bullet is a great starter (especially considering that 6.5 Creedmor bolt guns are winning a ton of matches), but in order to reach its true effectiveness, it needs to be driven faster than what I could drive it out of an 18" barrel with factory loads. The Creed guys are running 26" barrels and velocities around 3k fps. |
|
Nice group, wow. Looks like you shot it with a bolt gun. Now I really want one. I feel like I'm getting spoiled by you guys on AR15.com with these detailed answers. I'm sorry I wasn't more specific with my questions. When will I learn... I shouldn't have use the word "best" in such vague question. I'v never heard of 0.270AR, but perhaps I'll build one when I start reloading in the future. I was hoping jumping into 6.5 Grendel will help me grow interest in reloading. I asked about the wind drift comparison because just I couldn't understand how a smaller bullet could be affected less. But I guess it really does fare better in the wind? That's interesting. So up to 400 yards is okay with 6.5 Grendel? I assume for both deer and hog? Most game animals are around this size, right? I read shot placement is everything in hunting, and I don't think I'll ever attempt a shot past 400 yards. Not until I get better, anyways. I've never been hunting before, so I didn't know exactly what to ask specifically. An acquaintance taught me about approaching hog hunting season and my curiosity just sparked. I'm derailing from original question a bit, but where does 6.8 SPC shine over 6.5 Grendel? Other than availability of parts and ammo. I feel like this might open a can of worms, but wouldn't 6.5 Grendel work better as range increase compared to 6.8 SPC for hunting? 6.8 SPC seem to lose velocity much faster than 6.5 Grendel down range. Or does larger bullet compensate for this loss? I'm asking because I looked into 6.8 SPC first, and learned about 6.5 Grendel along the way as a viable alternative. Basically, I want to know if there would be any reason to build a 6.8 SPC setup once I have my 6.5 Grendel build. I understand .308 Win is better cartridge for longer range, but I figured 6.5 Grendel would be a sufficient replacement considering the extra cost to buy and accurize a whole new rifle. .308 Win ammo is cheaper, but I figured I'll never shoot enough ammo to compensate for the extra cost. |
| I'm not saying it can't be done, but I'd be hesitant about shooting a hog at 400 yards with a 6.5. Also, I'd scale that range back a little bit for your first hunt or two. Animals move a lot more than a target does, and you have to do more than just punch a hole to get the job done. 400 yards isn't unrealistic by any means, but try to keep things a little closer until you've dropped an animal or two. It's a great sport to get into, enjoy yourself & be safe. |
|
I recently chronod 6.5grendel, 123 Nosler CC over XBR
2600 fps, 23.5" AR, plugging those numbers into Strelok 2438 fps at 1000 yards 43.16 MOA (451") Retained velocity 1165, 370 ft.lbs. 2600 fps at 1000 yards 37.11 MOA (388") Retained velocity 1267, 438 ft.lbs. |
|
Quoted:I asked about the wind drift comparison because just I couldn't understand how a smaller bullet could be affected less. It has to do not with the size of the bullet but its length and shape. You know how Olympic boat races have these long, thin racing sculls instead of a regular row boat? If you think of air as being a little bit like water, a sleeker, more streamlined bullet will "cut" through the air better than a blunter bullet, and thus will be slowed down less by the air. Because it's slowed down less, it keeps up its speed longer, which means it hits the target harder than a shorter, blunter bullet that's been slowed down by the air. |
|
[b]
I'm derailing from original question a bit, but where does 6.8 SPC shine over 6.5 Grendel? Other than availability of parts and ammo. I feel like this might open a can of worms, but wouldn't 6.5 Grendel work better as range increase compared to 6.8 SPC for hunting? 6.8 SPC seem to lose velocity much faster than 6.5 Grendel down range. Or does larger bullet compensate for this loss? I'm asking because I looked into 6.8 SPC first, and learned about 6.5 Grendel along the way as a viable alternative. Basically, I want to know if there would be any reason to build a 6.8 SPC setup once I have my 6.5 Grendel build. The 6.5G is no better for hunting over a 6.8. Its a matter of energy not retained at over 375 yards for either cartridge. Also what gets left out is was the bullet designed for the speeds its traveling, whats its lowest effective speed, this is also where the 6.8 shines because of the better industry support from bullet manufactures. Contrary to what some here would have you believe the 6.8 does not drop like a rock at 300 yards. If hunting is your primary usage the 6.8 is the better choice over the 6.5G. Just as the recent poll in this forum suggests. For deer and hogs the 6.8 is the way to go. If you prefer the 6.5G then no, there is no reason to build a 6.8 once you have the 6.5G. They are so close to each other. As well the 6.5G is a fine cartridge. 2 years ago I also looked at both, but for me the one with the best industry support won out. |
|
Quoted:
Nice group, wow. Looks like you shot it with a bolt gun. Now I really want one. I feel like I'm getting spoiled by you guys on AR15.com with these detailed answers. I'm sorry I wasn't more specific with my questions. When will I learn... I shouldn't have use the word "best" in such vague question. I'v never heard of 0.270AR, but perhaps I'll build one when I start reloading in the future. I was hoping jumping into 6.5 Grendel will help me grow interest in reloading. I asked about the wind drift comparison because just I couldn't understand how a smaller bullet could be affected less. But I guess it really does fare better in the wind? That's interesting. So up to 400 yards is okay with 6.5 Grendel? I assume for both deer and hog? Most game animals are around this size, right? I read shot placement is everything in hunting, and I don't think I'll ever attempt a shot past 400 yards. Not until I get better, anyways. I've never been hunting before, so I didn't know exactly what to ask specifically. An acquaintance taught me about approaching hog hunting season and my curiosity just sparked. I'm derailing from original question a bit, but where does 6.8 SPC shine over 6.5 Grendel? Other than availability of parts and ammo. I feel like this might open a can of worms, but wouldn't 6.5 Grendel work better as range increase compared to 6.8 SPC for hunting? 6.8 SPC seem to lose velocity much faster than 6.5 Grendel down range. Or does larger bullet compensate for this loss? I'm asking because I looked into 6.8 SPC first, and learned about 6.5 Grendel along the way as a viable alternative. Basically, I want to know if there would be any reason to build a 6.8 SPC setup once I have my 6.5 Grendel build. I understand .308 Win is better cartridge for longer range, but I figured 6.5 Grendel would be a sufficient replacement considering the extra cost to buy and accurize a whole new rifle. .308 Win ammo is cheaper, but I figured I'll never shoot enough ammo to compensate for the extra cost. There is no need to reload for 6.5 Grendel with all the factory ammo options that have been around for years now. There are currently at least 31 different factory loads, ranging from $7.99/box on up. Reloading for it provides some more options to fine-tune loads for your rifle, or shoot any of the 140+ 6.5mm bullets out there, but the factory loads cover down on pretty much any application you can think of, short of tracers and API. I got out of .308 entirely after years of trying to get it to work well from gas guns. The 6.5 Grendel was a huge factor in making that decision. You basically get 85% of the energy of some of the better .308 target and hunting loads, with 50% less recoil, fits in an AR15, and all the ammo is meant to work in the AR15 from the start. Some of the data above doesn't make sense for 308 vs. Grendel, since you have better BC's for much less weight with 6.5mm. In practice, I have had a rare 1118yd 1st-round hit with 175gr SMK out of a DTA SRS 22" .308, whereas the factory Hornady 123gr A-MAX 6.5 Grendel from my 16" can do it at 1200yds in the same terrain, elevation, temp. The .308 was a $6000 bolt gun before optics, weighing a lot. The AR15 Grendel cost me maybe $1200 at the most, with me doing all the work on it. Ballistics wise, there isn't anything the 6.8 can do that the Grendel can't, and there are things the common factory Grendel ammo does that you would have to hand load for in the 6.8 just to nip its heels, at almost twice the cost in components, still with no solid pressure-tested load data for the SPC II chamber from the big industry names like Hodgdon's, Hornady, Speer, Nosler, Barnes, Sierra, etc. When it comes to hunting, 6.5 Grendel has commonly been used to take antelope, pigs, deer, mule deer, caribou, moose, bison, dall sheep, etc. Some of the large game has been cleanly taken at 400yds. If you are more interested in hog hunting, people typically shoot hogs near feeders within 100yds, from a stand/tower blind. There are several factory hunting loads for 6.5 Grendel that DRT them for that task, including 5 Barnes TSX and TTSX loads, Hornady 123gr SST which has blown through shoulders and exited on hogs with DRT results from 14.5" barrels, as well as loads using Nosler, Swift, and other hunting bullets from economy to premium price points. |
|
Quoted:
Yes. You are very correct. Different rifles. BUT, 26" AR? Come on. Quoted:
Quoted:
Jeez. Different barrel lengths. Different bullet types. Hand load vs factory ammo. You're comparing oranges to watermelons.
Try comparing your .308 SMK hand load to the 123gr SMK in Grendel hand loads fired from a 26" barrel, then see which goes subsonic first... Yes. You are very correct. Different rifles. BUT, 26" AR? Come on. "Come on," what? There's one member of the 65grendel forum who has a 26" barrel Grendel AR, and another with a 28" barrel AR. But, if you insist on a 20" tube on a Grendel AR, then at least use the same length for a .308 rifle. REAL WORLD COMPARISON shows a slight advantage to the longer, larger 308. That should be a positive for the Grendel. I suppose it can be viewed that way. However, my point is that if a "REAL WORLD COMPARISON" is done in apples vs apples fashion, using the same barrel length and bullet type for each caliber, the result would be much more positive. Instead of the Grendel showing "only" slightly worse ballistics than .308, it might have the same (or even slightly better) trajectory and drift. |
|
Quoted:
Why does anyone have to beat up the information I provided with the two rifles I own? Quoted:
Why does anyone have to beat up the information I provided with the two rifles I own? Because it doesn't give a like-versus-like comparison to permit a useful evaluation of the two cartridges. I'm not going to build a 26" AR and I'm not going to build a 20" Bolt to prove the point. If you're not going to use the same barrel length and bullet type for each caliber, then I question that you are proving any point. |
|
Quoted:
Because it doesn't give a like-versus-like comparison to permit a useful evaluation of the two cartridges. If you're not going to use the same barrel length and bullet type for each caliber, then I question that you are proving any point. Quoted:
Quoted:
Why does anyone have to beat up the information I provided with the two rifles I own? Because it doesn't give a like-versus-like comparison to permit a useful evaluation of the two cartridges. I'm not going to build a 26" AR and I'm not going to build a 20" Bolt to prove the point. If you're not going to use the same barrel length and bullet type for each caliber, then I question that you are proving any point. It was better data than anything you've given in this thread, or were you just coming in here to piss & moan? |
|
Quoted:
Contrary to what some here would have you believe the 6.8 does not drop like a rock at 300 yards. Quoted:
Contrary to what some here would have you believe the 6.8 does not drop like a rock at 300 yards. Of course it doesn't. Everybody knows that 6.8 bullets actually fall out of the sky at 400 yards. 
If hunting is your primary usage the 6.8 is the better choice over the 6.5G.
Just as the recent poll in this forum suggests. For deer and hogs the 6.8 is the way to go. <chuckle> So much for, "I'm not going to beat my 6.8 drum here." 
BTW, that poll only tells us which caliber is preferred by the respondents. It does not suggest that 6.8 is the "better" choice for hunting. I know of no objective data which shows that 6.8 SPC is actually any better at killing game than 6.5 Grendel. |
|
Quoted:
Of course it doesn't. Everybody knows that 6.8 bullets actually fall out of the sky at 400 yards.
<chuckle> So much for, "I'm not going to beat my 6.8 drum here."
BTW, that poll only tells us which caliber is preferred by the respondents. It does not suggest that 6.8 is the "better" choice for hunting. I know of no objective data which shows that 6.8 SPC is actually any better at killing game than 6.5 Grendel. Quoted:
Quoted:
Contrary to what some here would have you believe the 6.8 does not drop like a rock at 300 yards. Of course it doesn't. Everybody knows that 6.8 bullets actually fall out of the sky at 400 yards.
If hunting is your primary usage the 6.8 is the better choice over the 6.5G.
Just as the recent poll in this forum suggests. For deer and hogs the 6.8 is the way to go. <chuckle> So much for, "I'm not going to beat my 6.8 drum here."
BTW, that poll only tells us which caliber is preferred by the respondents. It does not suggest that 6.8 is the "better" choice for hunting. I know of no objective data which shows that 6.8 SPC is actually any better at killing game than 6.5 Grendel. I didnt comment on the 6.8's ability until after the OP asked about it, as well that was after I said I wouldnt beat the drum. I also commented kindly towards the 6.5G, out of respect for the OP's interest in it. There is nothing the 6.5G can kill that the 6.8 cant kill at the same yardage. As well vice versa. But the .308 can kill better than them both, that's just a fact. At least I didn't state that the 6.5G is commonly used to kill Bison, Moose.... bahaha now that's just damn funny. I hear NASA is looking to the 6.5G to launch the new series of smaller high BC shuttle's. 
No Stan, the poll just shows that more people prefer the 6.8 to anything but a .308 |
|
Quoted:
There is no need to reload for 6.5 Grendel with all the factory ammo options that have been around for years now. There are currently at least 31 different factory loads, ranging from $7.99/box on up. Reloading for it provides some more options to fine-tune loads for your rifle, or shoot any of the 140+ 6.5mm bullets out there, but the factory loads cover down on pretty much any application you can think of, short of tracers and API. I got out of .308 entirely after years of trying to get it to work well from gas guns. The 6.5 Grendel was a huge factor in making that decision. You basically get 85% of the energy of some of the better .308 target and hunting loads, with 50% less recoil, fits in an AR15, and all the ammo is meant to work in the AR15 from the start. Some of the data above doesn't make sense for 308 vs. Grendel, since you have better BC's for much less weight with 6.5mm. In practice, I have had a rare 1118yd 1st-round hit with 175gr SMK out of a DTA SRS 22" .308, whereas the factory Hornady 123gr A-MAX 6.5 Grendel from my 16" can do it at 1200yds in the same terrain, elevation, temp. The .308 was a $6000 bolt gun before optics, weighing a lot. The AR15 Grendel cost me maybe $1200 at the most, with me doing all the work on it. Ballistics wise, there isn't anything the 6.8 can do that the Grendel can't, and there are things the common factory Grendel ammo does that you would have to hand load for in the 6.8 just to nip its heels, at almost twice the cost in components, still with no solid pressure-tested load data for the SPC II chamber from the big industry names like Hodgdon's, Hornady, Speer, Nosler, Barnes, Sierra, etc. When it comes to hunting, 6.5 Grendel has commonly been used to take antelope, pigs, deer, mule deer, caribou, moose, bison, dall sheep, etc. Some of the large game has been cleanly taken at 400yds. If you are more interested in hog hunting, people typically shoot hogs near feeders within 100yds, from a stand/tower blind. There are several factory hunting loads for 6.5 Grendel that DRT them for that task, including 5 Barnes TSX and TTSX loads, Hornady 123gr SST which has blown through shoulders and exited on hogs with DRT results from 14.5" barrels, as well as loads using Nosler, Swift, and other hunting bullets from economy to premium price points. Quoted:
Quoted:
Nice group, wow. Looks like you shot it with a bolt gun. Now I really want one. I feel like I'm getting spoiled by you guys on AR15.com with these detailed answers. I'm sorry I wasn't more specific with my questions. When will I learn... I shouldn't have use the word "best" in such vague question. I'v never heard of 0.270AR, but perhaps I'll build one when I start reloading in the future. I was hoping jumping into 6.5 Grendel will help me grow interest in reloading. I asked about the wind drift comparison because just I couldn't understand how a smaller bullet could be affected less. But I guess it really does fare better in the wind? That's interesting. So up to 400 yards is okay with 6.5 Grendel? I assume for both deer and hog? Most game animals are around this size, right? I read shot placement is everything in hunting, and I don't think I'll ever attempt a shot past 400 yards. Not until I get better, anyways. I've never been hunting before, so I didn't know exactly what to ask specifically. An acquaintance taught me about approaching hog hunting season and my curiosity just sparked. I'm derailing from original question a bit, but where does 6.8 SPC shine over 6.5 Grendel? Other than availability of parts and ammo. I feel like this might open a can of worms, but wouldn't 6.5 Grendel work better as range increase compared to 6.8 SPC for hunting? 6.8 SPC seem to lose velocity much faster than 6.5 Grendel down range. Or does larger bullet compensate for this loss? I'm asking because I looked into 6.8 SPC first, and learned about 6.5 Grendel along the way as a viable alternative. Basically, I want to know if there would be any reason to build a 6.8 SPC setup once I have my 6.5 Grendel build. I understand .308 Win is better cartridge for longer range, but I figured 6.5 Grendel would be a sufficient replacement considering the extra cost to buy and accurize a whole new rifle. .308 Win ammo is cheaper, but I figured I'll never shoot enough ammo to compensate for the extra cost. There is no need to reload for 6.5 Grendel with all the factory ammo options that have been around for years now. There are currently at least 31 different factory loads, ranging from $7.99/box on up. Reloading for it provides some more options to fine-tune loads for your rifle, or shoot any of the 140+ 6.5mm bullets out there, but the factory loads cover down on pretty much any application you can think of, short of tracers and API. I got out of .308 entirely after years of trying to get it to work well from gas guns. The 6.5 Grendel was a huge factor in making that decision. You basically get 85% of the energy of some of the better .308 target and hunting loads, with 50% less recoil, fits in an AR15, and all the ammo is meant to work in the AR15 from the start. Some of the data above doesn't make sense for 308 vs. Grendel, since you have better BC's for much less weight with 6.5mm. In practice, I have had a rare 1118yd 1st-round hit with 175gr SMK out of a DTA SRS 22" .308, whereas the factory Hornady 123gr A-MAX 6.5 Grendel from my 16" can do it at 1200yds in the same terrain, elevation, temp. The .308 was a $6000 bolt gun before optics, weighing a lot. The AR15 Grendel cost me maybe $1200 at the most, with me doing all the work on it. Ballistics wise, there isn't anything the 6.8 can do that the Grendel can't, and there are things the common factory Grendel ammo does that you would have to hand load for in the 6.8 just to nip its heels, at almost twice the cost in components, still with no solid pressure-tested load data for the SPC II chamber from the big industry names like Hodgdon's, Hornady, Speer, Nosler, Barnes, Sierra, etc. When it comes to hunting, 6.5 Grendel has commonly been used to take antelope, pigs, deer, mule deer, caribou, moose, bison, dall sheep, etc. Some of the large game has been cleanly taken at 400yds. If you are more interested in hog hunting, people typically shoot hogs near feeders within 100yds, from a stand/tower blind. There are several factory hunting loads for 6.5 Grendel that DRT them for that task, including 5 Barnes TSX and TTSX loads, Hornady 123gr SST which has blown through shoulders and exited on hogs with DRT results from 14.5" barrels, as well as loads using Nosler, Swift, and other hunting bullets from economy to premium price points. A quick check of Midway , Graf & Son , Mid South Shooters shows IIRC, 1 choice from each for the grendel . |
|
Quoted:
I recently chronod 6.5grendel, 123 Nosler CC over XBR 2600 fps, 23.5" AR, plugging those numbers into Strelok 2438 fps at 1000 yards 43.16 MOA (451") Retained velocity 1165, 370 ft.lbs. 2600 fps at 1000 yards 37.11 MOA (388") Retained velocity 1267, 438 ft.lbs. Some one mind showing what a .277 130gr at 2890 fps out of a 20" stacks up to those numbers, iirc the 130 Berger is a .496 bc |
|
Quoted:
Some one mind showing what a .277 130gr at 2890 fps out of a 20" stacks up to those numbers, iirc the 130 Berger is a .496 bc Quoted:
Quoted:
I recently chronod 6.5grendel, 123 Nosler CC over XBR 2600 fps, 23.5" AR, plugging those numbers into Strelok 2438 fps at 1000 yards 43.16 MOA (451") Retained velocity 1165, 370 ft.lbs. 2600 fps at 1000 yards 37.11 MOA (388") Retained velocity 1267, 438 ft.lbs. Some one mind showing what a .277 130gr at 2890 fps out of a 20" stacks up to those numbers, iirc the 130 Berger is a .496 bc .277-2890 fps at 1000 yards 29.46 MOA (308") Retained velocity 1422, 584 ft.lbs. BTW I was showing the difference between 2438 and 2600 So you are getting those numbers from a gas gun? If so, impressive |
|
Quoted:
I recently chronod 6.5grendel, 123 Nosler CC over XBR 2600 fps, 23.5" AR, plugging those numbers into Strelok 2438 fps at 1000 yards 43.16 MOA (451") Retained velocity 1165, 370 ft.lbs. 2600 fps at 1000 yards 37.11 MOA (388") Retained velocity 1267, 438 ft.lbs. You're not entering something right. When I trued the data to the rifle, the DA was 3000 temp was 87.3. We shot to 1000 yrds and adjusted the calculator to real world elevation adjustments. 41.58moa at 1000yards. I ran with 41.5 2438fps muzzle. 100 yrd zero. I sat my chrono up at 200 yard line and was at 2138fps. I entered that data into my calculations as chrono at 599 ft. I bet I get pounced on for that one.... 
|
|
Quoted:
If you're not going to use the same barrel length and bullet type for each caliber, then I question that you are proving any point. It is hard for me to tell whether you are for or against the round.... If for than your logic is jacked. Send me whatever bullets and barrels you want tested and I'll gladly do it. To OP. I love my Grendel and it shoots well. ETA: I did a lot of research on the round before I built mine. There are so many people that will tear it down and get in fights on the internet about who's is better. There are both sides. People will tell x is better than y. The problem is not many people are posting the real data they have gotten. Embellishing facts to make their case either way. I figured I would post what I have proven. It is a great round. It has a history and some drama, but a great round. |
|
Hoping I didn't start something here... And if it's okay, I had some question about factory ammo availability for 6.5 Grendel. I can't seem to find them at a price point LRRPF52 had mentioned earlier. I did find some at Alexanderarms.com, but they were Wolf made combloc ammo for $0.36/rd. Whether combloc ammo would damage the barrel or not seems irrelevant, since I'm looking for match grade ammo. I found couple match grade ones at Gunbot.com for about $1.00/rd but it seems a bit much. While I was looking around in 65grendel.com I read a thread discussing how many times a 6.5 Grendel brass can be reloaded, and it seemed like those brasses could take a quite bit of mileage. General consensus was that 10~15 reloads were quite normal, up to 20 reloads for some people. While searching for cost of components I found some match bullets for $0.30/each, and some brass at $0.65/each. I don't know how much it'll cost in the end because I have no idea what primer/powder to use or how much they cost, but it can't the that much I assume? Taking a wild guess here, but about $0.50/rd? Give or take $0.05? And wow, those ballistics data are confusing. I understood some of it, but it is definitely going to take some time and lots of more reading to get used to.
|
|
I bought Hornady from Academy for $1.25 a round. It shot so well I bought the entire lot with that number. I have all of the components to duplicate the round, with xbr8208, using the hornady brass, for $.42.
I don't know where the $.40 a round factory ammo is. Ballistic calculators are great, but if you don't put in the real data, you will get some wonky results. When I first started shooting I put in G1 coefficient numbers, but told the calculator to run it as G7. The chart was amazing. I could shoot faaaaaar on paper. That was wrong info. Your sight height makes a pretty big difference too. Truing your calculator to the rifle makes a world of difference. Once it's done and your rifle data is set up right, you just have to enter your atmospherics correctly and you are good to go for as long a shot as you can take. That is as long as your rifle is stabilizing your bullet. |
|
Quoted:
Hoping I didn't start something here... And if it's okay, I had some question about factory ammo availability for 6.5 Grendel. I can't seem to find them at a price point LRRPF52 had mentioned earlier. I did find some at Alexanderarms.com, but they were Wolf made combloc ammo for $0.36/rd. Whether combloc ammo would damage the barrel or not seems irrelevant, since I'm looking for match grade ammo. I found couple match grade ones at Gunbot.com for about $1.00/rd but it seems a bit much. Quoted:
Hoping I didn't start something here... And if it's okay, I had some question about factory ammo availability for 6.5 Grendel. I can't seem to find them at a price point LRRPF52 had mentioned earlier. I did find some at Alexanderarms.com, but they were Wolf made combloc ammo for $0.36/rd. Whether combloc ammo would damage the barrel or not seems irrelevant, since I'm looking for match grade ammo. I found couple match grade ones at Gunbot.com for about $1.00/rd but it seems a bit much. That is common, its harder to find than .308 or 6.8 and as spendy or more so. 6.5G ammo is some of the hardest to find on store shelves. Take a look around in your area to see availability of it until you reload. While I was looking around in 65grendel.com I read a thread discussing how many times a 6.5 Grendel brass can be reloaded, and it seemed like those brasses could take a quite bit of mileage. General consensus was that 10~15 reloads were quite normal, up to 20 reloads for some people. While searching for cost of components I found some match bullets for $0.30/each, and some brass at $0.65/each. I don't know how much it'll cost in the end because I have no idea what primer/powder to use or how much they cost, but it can't the that much I assume? Taking a wild guess here, but about $0.50/rd? Give or take $0.05? Figure .04 for primers an .10 for powder just for an average, bullets .30 to .60 like you figure. And wow, those ballistics data are confusing. I understood some of it, but it is definitely going to take some time and lots of more reading to get used to. Go to Hornady and input your own ballistic calculations for the projectiles. Or use Strelok free calculator. Take most of what you see here with a grain of salt that people have posted. There are so many variables guys can put in to get results they want. Despite what gets put up here the Grendel is no more capable then the 6.8 and less 350 yards and in. Is less capable than the .308, both are. If you ever go SBR or pistol the 6.8 can go as short as 8.5 inches, no one builds anything that short for the 6.5G. With a 6.8 barrels go 8.5 to 20 inches effectively, longer you dont gain worth the different. With the 6.5G barrels go 12.5 to 24 inches effectively, it takes a bit longer barrel with the 6.5G than the 6.8, dispite what they will say here. In 2008 the 6.5G had an advantage over the 6.8, in 2014 its reversed. All that said it sounds like you have decided on the 6.5G, so dive in and get your feet wet, there is no other way. Welcome to the diease friend. |
|
Quoted:
Some one mind showing what a .277 130gr at 2890 fps out of a 20" stacks up to those numbers, iirc the 130 Berger is a .496 bc Quoted:
Quoted:
I recently chronod 6.5grendel, 123 Nosler CC over XBR 2600 fps, 23.5" AR, plugging those numbers into Strelok 2438 fps at 1000 yards 43.16 MOA (451") Retained velocity 1165, 370 ft.lbs. 2600 fps at 1000 yards 37.11 MOA (388") Retained velocity 1267, 438 ft.lbs. Some one mind showing what a .277 130gr at 2890 fps out of a 20" stacks up to those numbers, iirc the 130 Berger is a .496 bc What pressure is that at? A 130gr .277" at 2890fps from a 24" barrel is a mid-range load with some of the powders in the .270 Winchester, which has much more case volume. The .270 Winchester is rated to 65,000psi for SAAMI MAP. To get a 130gr .277 going 2890fps from a 20" barrel, you're going to need some really interesting things going on from inside of an AR15. I use H4831 in the .270 Winchester, and it's been a go-to powder that allows good load density and great accuracy, with top speeds. With a 135gr SMK, I stopped in the 2850fps region doing pressure ladders with my Featherweight Model 70. Who knew I could get the same performance or better from an AR15 with a .7385" relief cut in the barrel tennon area... Tell me when you start to get case head separations if you're lucky enough to before the kaboom. You guys are going to find out the hard way what hoop stress means, and I hope someone is there to document it with a camera so the other "me" generation types have a chance to learn from your example. |
|
Yes it is a disease. I started with a 5.56 and then added a 450 Bushmaster thinking I have the spread covered. Hmmm, that's a big gap. Lets add a 6.8, cool, and the 300 blk subsonic, neato. Well I've heard good things about that 6x45 might as well try it. You know that 6mmBR sure would be nice in a AR. AUUUGGGHHH, it never stops. PS, What do you think , a .20 cal or one of the mid .30 cal. It's happening again......................................................................
|
|
Quoted:
Yes it is a disease. I started with a 5.56 and then added a 450 Bushmaster thinking I have the spread covered.Hmmm, that's a big gap. Lets add a 6.8, cool, and the 300 blk subsonic, neato. Well I've heard good things about that 6x45 might as well try it. You know that 6mmBR sure would be nice in a AR. AUUUGGGHHH, it never stops. PS, What do you think , a .20 cal or one of the mid .30 cal. It's happening again...................................................................... I keep looking at the 20x6.8 |
|
On the topic of cost
I never planned on buying a single round of factory ammo Buy the components and roll your own It costs what it costs, gotta pay to play I got interested in the 6.5grendel after reading about it in Glen Zedikers book- The Competitive AR15, it interested me Still learning the round. So far I've learned it packs a lot more punch than a 5.56 with a bit more recoil, way less than a 308 It's more fun to shoot than a 308 and uses less powder So far it's impressive compared to 5.56/.223. If there is a better round to be had that fits in a regular AR15 lower get it, you are the only one that cares. |
|
Quoted: I keep looking at the 20x6.8 Quoted: Quoted: Yes it is a disease. I started with a 5.56 and then added a 450 Bushmaster thinking I have the spread covered.Hmmm, that's a big gap. Lets add a 6.8, cool, and the 300 blk subsonic, neato. Well I've heard good things about that 6x45 might as well try it. You know that 6mmBR sure would be nice in a AR. AUUUGGGHHH, it never stops. PS, What do you think , a .20 cal or one of the mid .30 cal. It's happening again...................................................................... I keep looking at the 20x6.8  |
|
Wow. I just came back from reading a bunch of threads titled 6.5 vs 6.8 from both 68forums.com and 65grendel.com. I'm sorry I even brought it up. This thing is worse than AR vs AK, 9mm vs 45 ACP, mommy vs daddy, combined. I think I'm just going to take the middle ground and think that they are equal. So exhausted from reading all the bashing and number dumping  |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 6.5 Grendel Questions (Page 1 of 2)
AR Sponsor