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Posted: 12/18/2012 9:26:16 AM EDT
| Anyone have any load data for the 500 Phantom or experience loading for it and willing to share their findings ? I have just started working on some loads for it and I am getting no where near the velocities that quickload show and I remember their being some load data for it on feistyrooster.com but that site seems down. From what I remember on feistyrooster.com 645 gr fmj loaded at 2.8 with h110 was stated at about 1100 fps. Quickload shows 19.5 gr of lil gun should give 1100 fps but I am only seeing 850 fps with the starting signs of flattening primers and 98 % case capacity. Quickload shows the h110 and lil gun loads to give about the same speed and pressure . I don't have any h110 to try right now and doubt that it will give much faster velocities. This is a 16 inch gas gun. Anyone getting anywhere near 1100 fps with 645 fmj loaded at 2.8 oal with any powder? Or recommend the best powders for this round with heavy subs? |
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I think you wrote me about this a week or two ago didn't you? Since you have CAR gas you might want to try the H110/W296 (same powder) and see if it gets you there. At 3.090 inches you can get 1086 fps with 27.5 gr. H110 but of course it has to be single fed. At 2.8 inches you can get close to the velocity but the rifle (at least my midlength) will not function. I took it up to 22.0 gr. H110, primers started to flatten, and I was getting around 970 fps, but the rifle would not eject, would not feed. Going the other direction did not improve anything.
I tried going to a lighter buffer, lighter spring, no change. I tried slowing things down with a HB and heavier springs, hoping the BC was traveling too fast, no change. I think all of my problems are with the midlength gas. H110 is just too fast for the .500 P just as it is with the .458S with midlength gas. I tried 2400 powder and got up to 853 fps (18.4 gr.), but no feeding, no ejecting. Just as with H110, they fired but nothing worked and a rifle that does not eject and feed, what good is that. Since you have CAR gas, you might get it to function and if you do, please let me know. I am not opposed to having it re-gassed if it will run but I'm not going to do it on a guess. Let me know what you find out. The Feisty Rooster data for a 653 gr. API using H110 and 2.8 inch length lists 25.0 gr. at 1120 fps, but he does not stipulate if the rifle ejected and fed with this load OR what gas length he was using. |
| Thanks for the info big-bore, yes I did IM you but never got a response so rather than bug you I figured I'd do a post and see who would chime in. I'll pickup some h110 or w296 and try it. If I can get to 950-1000fps I'll be happy. I can tell you that the 19.6 gr lil gun load does cycle my gun, doesn't lock the bolt back 100% of the time though. May need to break in some and a suppressor will help there too. I have the gas port wide open and one of Thomas's 3 way gas block. I've seen 2 lengths for trimming brass, one is 1.525 and the other is 1.535. Which is the correct trimmed length ? Or Is 1.535 the max length? |
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I did reply to your message so I am not sure why you did not receive it. I did not have anything in it though that I did not post here, probably not as much since I did reply from my iPhone and that is tedious typing at best.
On the length, what I have is MAXIMUM case length of 1.535 inch, trim to length of 1.525 inch. Of course, trimming to 1.530 is not a problem or even shorter than 1.525, just so long as you trim them all to the same length. |
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QL has always been a bit problematic with its predictions with H110 and it seems the larger the bore the more 'off' it is. If the weather clears and I cannot get the 4198 to run with my midlength gas I am ready to pull the barrel and send it to Thomas for re-profiling and cutting the gas block back to the CAR length and re-porting. I'll just block off the port at the midlength position and call it a day. Frankly, if the 4198 does not get the damned thing running I am tossing in the towel with that midlength gas. I've mucked around enough with it and am sick to death of trying to make it run with those M33 ball bullets. However, since that is why I did the thing on the LR platform in the first place I do not want to abandon those bullets, that and the fact I have over 500 of them just sitting there and I am not about to shoot them through my .50 BMG match rifle. Thanks for the input. If next Wednesday finds the rifle still not running then off that barrel goes to Thomas for him to work his magic.
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| Big-Bore what temps were you shooting your h110 loads at and have you seen any big differences with h110 loads at near freezing temps ? I've always read that some guys swear that h110 is temperature sensitive and other who say it is not. I've never used it before this. I loaded up some 21 grn loads and shot them with temps right at freezing. I was shocked at the speeds, from 450 - 550 fps. I was glad I didn't stick a bullet in the barrel. I figured I was getting poor ignition and expected to see a bunch of un-burned powder left in the barrel but it was clean. I shot the same load once it warmed up into the upper 40's and got in the mid 800 fps. I hand measured these with a hornady digital scale so I'm pretty sure my loads were right on. I also loaded some long at 3.040 over 27 grns. of h110 they ran into the mid 1000 fps, temps were in the mid 40's. Primers looked ok on all the loads and gun cycled and locked back every time. Do you use magnum primers ? |
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Quoted:
Big-Bore what temps were you shooting your h110 loads at and have you seen any big differences with h110 loads at near freezing temps ? I've always read that some guys swear that h110 is temperature sensitive and other who say it is not. I've never used it before this. I loaded up some 21 grn loads and shot them with temps right at freezing. I was shocked at the speeds, from 450 - 550 fps. I was glad I didn't stick a bullet in the barrel. I figured I was getting poor ignition and expected to see a bunch of un-burned powder left in the barrel but it was clean. I shot the same load once it warmed up into the upper 40's and got in the mid 800 fps. I hand measured these with a hornady digital scale so I'm pretty sure my loads were right on. I also loaded some long at 3.040 over 27 grns. of h110 they ran into the mid 1000 fps, temps were in the mid 40's. Primers looked ok on all the loads and gun cycled and locked back every time. Do you use magnum primers ? On the H110 at hot and freezing temps I have seen no significant difference. Not in my .458 SOCOM and not in the .500 Phantom. Loads that I worked up a couple of summers ago at the 3.090 inch length (at my crimp groove) with the M33 ball and H110 (27.5 gr.) were 1080.7 fps and when I started testing things again this past fall they were clocking the same speeds even though the temps were in the low 40s. Those locked the bolt back after every shot, but of course, would not fit the magazine and had to be single loaded. Shooting the .458S at the same low temps with H110 also did not record any slower speeds than they did when I worked up them up in the warmer temperatures. I do use magnum primers whenever I am shooting H110 in anything, rifle or pistol. It sounds like you are getting pretty much what I got with long loaded bullets and charges of H110. Just too long to feed through the action and if I wanted a single shot I would not have built it on the LR action. Loading single shot sort of defeats the purpose for me. The powder I am getting 200 to 300 fps with is Re #7 with the M33 ball bullet seated to 2.800 inch with charges in the 19.2-22.2 gr. range, which were supposed to be giving me around 900 fps. Not sure what is going on there but I am seeing a steady increase in velocity as I up the charge so I think QL is just plain wrong with Re #7 also, at least in the .500 Phantom and midlength gas; either that or the pressures are too low. The max pressure QL is giving me with 22 gr. is only 22K psi and I think that is not enough to get the powder to behave correctly. As the charge is going up the velocity is climbing and the ES is going down, however, it still is making no attempt to feed or eject properly at the higher charges, even with tweaking the gas on the gas block. I am working on taking that load up higher as well as working with H4198 and H322 to see if they will get the rifle to function and lock back as well as give me velocities at least 850 fps. If not that barrel is getting re-ported to CAR length and I am going back to H110 which has given me velocities near what I want but not functioning correctly (not feeding or locking back with that blasted midlength gas). |
| When I picked up the h110 last week I tried to get some primers, went to 3 shops, with the current buying frenzy all anyone had were shotgun primers. All I have on hand are Winchester lrp so that's what I've been using. Got a gun show coming to town in a few weeks I'll try to get some magnum primers and give them a try. Every h110 load I tried cycled the gun with no issues so dropping yours back to carbine gas should end your problems. |
| I sure hope so. I have no idea why Marty did mine in Midlength when all the other .500s he was doing in the group buy (on AR platforms) were done in CAR length. I can only guess that since he knew that I was wanting to shoot mainly the M33 ball bullets that he thought the midlength might work better. It is odd though because the shorter 600 gr. PP Woodleighs run like a bat out of hell with Re #7, tossing them out at 1550 fps with a charge of 47.0 gr. Put those obscenely long M33 ball bullets in there though with them eating up all the powder space and it won't run at all. Even a charge of 22 gr. is quite compressed with those bullets. |
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Even a charge of 22 gr. is quite compressed with those bullets. Not only that but qucikload shows a pressure peak of 70,000 psi with that 25 grn m8 api load from the fiestyrooster site which is why I sent you the pm and started this thread. The results I was seeing and the data that quickload showed (be it off as it is) made me believe either I was doing something really wrong or the data online was incorrect.
Have you thought about cutting the tips down on the m33's so they fit the mag when seated to the cannelure ? I made a jig out of a 2x4 to hold the bullet and use a chop saw to take the tip down some, then use a 9mm seating die insert and hammer to close the tip up some. They come out looking pretty good and seem to feed fine. This gets me into the mid 1000 fps, load from the mag and crimped at the cannelure. Kind of a pain to have to do this but with the jig it only takes about 30 seconds to do each bullet and its not like I'll be shooting 1000's of these rounds anyway. If your mid length system cycles the 27.5 load of h110 this may get you working without regassing the barrel. |
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I had thought about doing just that but chickened out. Years ago I was reading about someone doing that with military .30-06 bullets to make expanding bullets out of FMJ. It turned out that the lead core, since it was open on both ends, could be shot out of the bullet leaving the bullet jacket in the barrel. You can imagine what the next shot would do. I read this at least 40 years ago shortly after I started reloading and I have no idea if this is really possible or not, but it must have made an impression on me because while I thought about doing just that, I chickened out. I know that when the .50 Alaskan was developed that they use to take .50 BMG bullets, cut off the tips to make about a 450 gr. bullet, then seat them backwards so the flat base of the bullet was pointing forward. I never read of any of them blowing the core out and sticking the jacket in the barrel so who knows if that is even possible or not. Still, being the coward that I am I just could not bring myself to do it. I like the idea of you using the 9mm seater to 'crimp' the jacket back onto the lead core. That would certainly help prevent the core from shooting out.
I have not checked with Thomas about re-profiling the barrel for me but I don't think it would be that much. Just run the .936 part of the barrel back couple of inches and drill a new gas port. The most expensive part would be buying another gas block to block off the midlength port, about $40. I had considered tapping and plugging the hole but it would be so much simpler to just block it off with a second gas block turned backwards or shifted forwards a bit to block the port. Then if everything goes as planned I can always go back and plug the hole later if I so desire. I know ADCO does that type of work but he still has to leave a slight hole there since he cannot plug it all the way to the inside of the bore. So a hole that can be cleared and cleaned from time to time might not be a bad idea. I still need to try the H4198 and H322 to see if they will make it function but it seems the weather is not going to give me a break this week either. I know Re #7 does not work nor does 2400, H110/296, and one or two more that are faster than #7 so now I am going the other direction. I hope H4198 or H322 will do something and if they do, I am fretting a lot over nothing. If I can get 850 fps and proper functioning I will be as happy as a clam in a mud flat. I am not shooting anything but paper anyway but I insist that the rifle functions properly. |
| I remember reading sometime ago about pushing the lead and leaving the jackets in the barrel too. I just shot a few of the loads I had shortened. Shot them one at a time checking the barrel after each shot. They all shot fine and left nice round holes. They have some pretty thick copper jackets on them and the open tip is pretty small compared to the diameter of the bullet. Not saying this is safe and you can't push the core through the jacket, just that it worked for the loads I tried running in the mid 1000 fps. BTW, thanks for the info you have given me on the Phantom, its hard to find much on it and not everything I do find seems valid. Its good to get first hand experience from someone. |
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I tried three more powders today and all were epic fail with H322 sticking a bullet in the barrel at QL listed max. On all loads I was over 500 fps slower than what QL said I should be getting and it was fairly warm at 42F and the ammo had been kept at 70F. Barrel is off and heading to Thomas in the morning.
I do not know the reason but I am convinced QL is not worth a tinker's damn when it comes to the .500 P. What size did Thomas drill your gas port at the CAR length, .090? Thanks. |
| I had PM'd Marty a while back and asked him what size I should go with and he said .125. I had Thomas set the gas port to .090 figuring Id work my way up if needed. Marty was right on as I opened it up in 3 steps and ended up opening it up to .125 If I remember correctly at .090 the bolt would open some but not travel far enough back to even come close to pickup the next round. I am running one of Thomas's adjustable gas blocks, I am not sure what his port sizes are for the two settings but I've been running the gas block on the larger opening and so far only tried running the heavy subs . I assume its gas tube size but I am not certain. The gun locks back on empty mag every time with 21 gr h110 loads at 2.8 oal and locks back about 90 % of the time with 20 gr lil gun but always cycles. |
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Thanks. I'll just have Thomas open it to .090 and then I'll go the rest of the way. I too went up to .125 on the midlength when I was working it up, trying to make it work in the beginning. The GB I have on there is one that is adjustable for length of the gas tube (long story*) as well as a set screw for adjusting the amount of gas. I have been running it wide open all the way to almost closed but still, nothing works with those M33 ball bullets. I had thought I was over gassed and the BCG was traveling too quickly to pick up a round so I tried the adjustable gas tube, no change.
So, back to Thomas and when it comes back maybe I can get those pills to function. It has something to do with the length of those bullets and the amount of powder space they consume. Using 600 gr. Woodleigh PP bullets they function just fine with heavy charges of Re #7. But when you go just 50 gr. more with those M33 bullets, and all that length, then in the midlength things go to hell in a hand basket. If the .500 works like the .458S, going to a CAR length gas will not affect my other loads that I have worked up but will allow me to use H110 and work with the M33 bullets. This thing has been a royal PITA with the M33 bullets. With norma bullets it ran fine, just those blasted M33 bullets but they were the reason I went with the LR platform in the first place. If I had wanted to use normal bullets I could have had it done on the AR platform. However, the LR platform lets me push the loads a hell of a lot harder than one can on the AR platform so I do not regret that decision, only the position of the gas block. * when the midlength gas port was cut it was cut long for some reason. There was not the normal amount of gas tube sticking into the upper so we went with the Armalite midlength tube which is longer than standard. It seemed like it worked better but the gas tube still was not as far into the upper as on my other LRs. So, Marty/Thomas made me an adjustable length gas block and we took a rifle length tube, cut it down so the the gas tube went all the way into the key with only about 1/16 inch clearance from being bottomed out and it did seem like it worked better, but still not good enough to make the M33 bullets work. |
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* when the midlength gas port was cut it was cut long for some reason. There was not the normal amount of gas tube sticking into the upper so we went with the Armalite midlength tube which is longer than standard. It seemed like it worked better but the gas tube still was not as far into the upper as on my other LRs. So, Marty/Thomas made me an adjustable length gas block and we took a rifle length tube, cut it down so the the gas tube went all the way into the key with only about 1/16 inch clearance from being bottomed out and it did seem like it worked better, but still not good enough to make the M33 bullets work. I understand what you are saying here. I have a few "oddball uppers" that I play with. Things like a subsonic .223 upper that cycles with standard milspec components and a real short 300 Whisper that cycles with subsonic loads with bullets as light as 90 gr. They all have super short gas systems, To get them to run the best I've found to setup the end of the gas tube to bottom out in the bolt carrier key when closed and then only back it out a few thousands. This allows maximum use of the little pressure that is available to me with these setups. Let me know how that thing works when you get it back. |
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