AR Sponsor
Posted: 2/23/2011 11:48:01 AM EDT
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I will be moving forward with the purchase of an AR in 308 this year, and I am trying to digest all of the information available.
All other things being equal, can someone describe the factors that determine accuracy in any given rifle, and why some brands are considered significantly more accurate? For example, POF is thought of as being the most accurate (except maybe for KAC), but what about it makes it so? Is it just the Barrell? Overall fit and finish? How much of it brings the law of diminishing returns into play? Does it start with a DPMS in the $1K range, and then for an additional $1K you spend you get an additional 1/8" MOA of accuracy? Then the next 1/8" MOA costs $2K? If it will be used for primarily hunting (hog and deer), with occasional runs to the local 100 yard range, will the accuracy be that much of a factor? Any thoughts will be appreciated. Thanks |
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I will be moving forward with the purchase of an AR in 308 this year, and I am trying to digest all of the information available. All other things being equal, can someone describe the factors that determine accuracy in any given rifle, and why some brands are considered significantly more accurate? For example, POF is thought of as being the most accurate (except maybe for KAC), but what about it makes it so? Is it just the Barrell? Overall fit and finish? How much of it brings the law of diminishing returns into play? Does it start with a DPMS in the $1K range, and then for an additional $1K you spend you get an additional 1/8" MOA of accuracy? Then the next 1/8" MOA costs $2K? If it will be used for primarily hunting (hog and deer), with occasional runs to the local 100 yard range, will the accuracy be that much of a factor? Any thoughts will be appreciated. Thanks Real and primary reason for accuracy differences between .308 = nut behind the trigger! |
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Personally I would spend money on a good barrel and especially a good trigger.
Most factory triggers are garbage. Budget for a replacement from day one. Many factory barrels are iffy. The chamber on my DPMS was awfully rough and it took a lot of tinkering to get the DPMS to run right. Accuracy wise the rifle isn't bad. It has been a while but I recall my rig will do about 1.5 MOA with factory rounds it likes. It won't hold MOA for more than 3 rounds. The barrel profile may have something to do with that or it could be the loose nut behind the stock. Consider what kind of hunting you are going to do with your rifle. DPMS was one of the few games in town when I got the hankering for a .308 AR. I wanted to make it a no-frills hunting rifle that was as light as possible. I don't spend a lot of time in a tree stand- I prefer to get down and move about. Probably the reason I am a mediocre hunter. 
I had ADCO turn down the barrel and they did great work. Weight dropped off in pounds quickly! I put in a good Geissele trigger unit which made the rifle a lot easier to shoot. I put a scope I had on it and didn't bother with iron sights at all. I replaced the stock with a Magpul for comfort and the grip with a Tangodown (just preference). End product is short and good for brush hunting. It weighs less than 8.75 pounds loaded (five rounds) and scoped. I found my DPMS mags were causing feeding problems so I went with some Magpul magazines. I suggest you do the same if you buying mags. All in all I would have started from scratch these days. Perhaps with an MA-TEN receiver set and a quality barrel. I would go with a mid-length gas system and an 18" barrel. The one thing I know I did right was to go with a quality trigger. It wasn't cheap but it really does make a significant difference. |
| I was looking for a good long range hunting rifle that was good for long range target as well. When i was looking, DPMS didnt have a great reputation with .308, i found a company in Colorado called 'Accuacy Systems' (sorry I dont know how to hyperlink) they make all sorts of different caliber AR platform rifles. I was impressed with the feedback they got, so i had them customize an Armalite I picked up. Absolutely great job!!! Rifle is a pure tackdriver! Not bad on he bank either and they stand behind their products. Just my opinion. |
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The barrel determines accuracy. More specifically, the bore, the chamber, the throat and the crown being cut to proper dimensions and orientation. DPMS big stainless barrels are very accurate. So are Armalite AR10(T) and NM barrels. So are LMT chrome-lined barrels. Personally I cant see spending more than what an LMT costs for anything else, nothing is going to be significantly "more accurate" or have much more features than any of these three. Pick one that fits your budget.
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Real and primary reason for accuracy differences between .308 = nut behind the trigger! X2 I have seen guys do things with ragged out Piece-O-Crap that would make you green with envy and a 5K rifle that I want to take from someone that could barely load it but went on-and-on about how it would group .0001" at 1500 yards. That said. .001" tighter tolerances during manufacturing is expensive and creates a better machine at the end. It is all about repeatable peformance by reducing variables during construction. |
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I will be moving forward with the purchase of an AR in 308 this year, and I am trying to digest all of the information available. All other things being equal, can someone describe the factors that determine accuracy in any given rifle, and why some brands are considered significantly more accurate? For example, POF is thought of as being the most accurate (except maybe for KAC), but what about it makes it so? Is it just the Barrell? Overall fit and finish? How much of it brings the law of diminishing returns into play? Does it start with a DPMS in the $1K range, and then for an additional $1K you spend you get an additional 1/8" MOA of accuracy? Then the next 1/8" MOA costs $2K? If it will be used for primarily hunting (hog and deer), with occasional runs to the local 100 yard range, will the accuracy be that much of a factor? Any thoughts will be appreciated. Thanks At 100 yards on a range it wont matter much which one you get. There will be those that choose one over another and swear that you "need" to get this or that. I have been pleased with my DPMS and since it is still more accurate than I am I dont see a need to upgrade. For hunting purposes you will want to look at a shorter barrel with a lighter contour. That's going to take away from the bench rest shooting but I'd hate to have to carry my 24" bull barreled DPMS very long. The .308 models are heavy. |
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"Personally I would spend money on a good barrel and especially a good trigger. " this right there , spend 450 to 600 on a barrel and get a nice timney or other match trigger , the rest is Legos. Good trigger first, then a quality barrel after you get used to the gun..... |
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"Personally I would spend money on a good barrel and especially a good trigger. " this right there , spend 450 to 600 on a barrel and get a nice timney or other match trigger , the rest is Legos. Good trigger first, then a quality barrel after you get used to the gun..... From my personal experience, I can do better with a good barrel but a shitty trigger than I can with a shitty barrel and a great trigger. |
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Barrels are the heart of a Gun and most important factor in accuracy.
A good trigger has the most effect on acheiving a rifles accuracy potential. Barrel first. If you have a bad barrel it doesn't matter what else you do it's not going to shoot..................................................DJ |
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I bought a DPMS 24 inch LR308 with as much accuracy and tactical accessories as I could think of installed as a factory built rifle. I started with a slick sided LR308 and additional items included:
24 inch fluted heavy barrel black teflon coating on barrel Miculek muzzle brake tactical charging handle JP trigger group tactical bolt release After receiving the rifle, rounds would stick in the chamber. If I didn't fire the round, when I extracted them, the bullets had the rifling engraved onto the bullet...clearly engraved, not just a bit. Primers would be flattened on firing, often fired cases would stick in the chamber, and the bolt would rip a chunk off the extractor groove of the fired case. I had to use a brass rod to knock out the stuck cases. These are all clear indications of a short throat. These issues were witnessed by two other fellows I shoot with, and by a local gunsmith. All agreed with my assessment about the short throat. I contacted DPMS and they said to return the rifle along with a magazine. Bear in mind that I had never had, nor did I report any difficulty with feeding or magazines..the issues were with rounds that made it into the chamber already. The rifle was returned, and after DPMS had the rifle for a short time, they returned the rifle saying the only problem they could find was with the magazine, and they had replaced the magazine. I asked about the short throat, and they said the didn't find anything wrong with the throat. However, after receiving the rifle back, the rifle operated as I would expect it to. The rounds no longer stuck in the chamber, there was no more engraving of the rifling onto unfired cartridge bullets. Rounds chambered, extracted, and ejected normally. In short, the rifle no longer had a short throat. I was very disappointed that DPMS was not willing to admit that there was an issue with the short throat. That sort of denial causes me to loose trust in a company. With handmade rifles, I would not expect a short throat. However, with a company that makes a large quantity of rifles, it only stands to reason that occasionally a reamer will wear out prematurely. I don't see that as a big deal as long as the issue is taken care of. But when the issue is witnessed by a number of people, and the company denies that there was anything wrong, I loose faith in that company. The rifle works normally now, but because of how this issue was handled, I would not purchase another factory built rifle from DPMS. However, I would buy parts from them, and have the rifle assembled elsewhere, as that would give greater quality control to the overall build. |
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Five easy factors that can be changed to increase or decrease accuracy...
1. Ammo (reloads or off the shelf) 2. Trigger (to suite your style) 3. Optics and mount (should be two separate items, but for the sake of simplicities, it's one) 4. Barrel 5. Rifle stock/ergonomics The most expensive "pieces" are going to be optics and mount (duh). That will be followed by the barrel, then stock and trigger/ammo. Put good optics on the gun with a good trigger and a good barrel, and even crappy ammo will be decently accurate (the definition of accuracy can be defined differently based on your goals as a shooter - ie small groups, hitting exactly where you are aiming that one time you need to, etc etc etc)... |
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From what I've seen (and this does NOT apply to all people) most people would do well to spend $100 for a 2 stage, match trigger. Then get a barrel from a reputable company. Or buy the gun from a company that already includes a match trigger and has an accuracy guarantee (Rock River Arms comes to mind).
Then spend a whole bunch of money on ammo, and a whole bunch of time on practice away from the bench. The weak link in the accuracy equation is almost always the shooter. |
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In the AR platform, barrel and trigger are tops.
I have a LR-308 that I built from scratch pin-by-pin, spring-by-spring with a Krieger Criterion 20" barrel, and it will put ten rounds of anything decent into an inch or less, and not just a random group here or there. It will do it on demand, which is about what I expected. With AR type guns, the fundamentals are super important, even more so than with bolt guns. There are three recoil impulses with an AR, and only one with a bolt gun, so they can be more challenging to shoot. Finding or making consistent ammo is key. |
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There are three recoil impulses with an AR, and only one with a bolt gun, so they can be more challenging to shoot. . If you don't mind, would you please elaborate on this and explain some of how you compensate for it?........................................DJ |
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There are three recoil impulses with an AR, and only one with a bolt gun, so they can be more challenging to shoot. . If you don't mind, would you please elaborate on this and explain some of how you compensate for it?........................................DJ On a semi: recoil impulse 1: round fires recoil impulse 2: bolt ejects case recoil impulse 3: bolt chambers next round. On a bolt gun all you have to is the first impulse. Not sure what one could really do to compensate.. |
| What is most often more influential than recoil impulses, since the bullet has left the bore prior to the second two, is the increased lock time of an AR compared to pretty much any bolt gun. Makes follow through incredibly important to accurately firing an AR. |
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What is most often more influential than recoil impulses, since the bullet has left the bore prior to the second two, is the increased lock time of an AR compared to pretty much any bolt gun. Makes follow through incredibly important to accurately firing an AR. Good point. One of the advantages of a Geisselle trigger is it's decreased locktime - brings to back to the triggers importance especially on an AR........................dj |
| I will put my two cents in with everyone else. The most important aspect of the AR regarding accuracy, is the barrel first, then the trigger. Because any nut can tighten themself to shoot straight, regardless of the trigger. But if the barrel is tweaked, not good to begin with, or worn out, it will be very difficult to consistently hit the target where you want. the trigger is all technique and can be dealt with by adjusting your shooting hand, or familiarizing yourself as much as possible with that trigger. But like many have said before, its much easier to get a new trigger. I use an Iron Ridge Arms trigger. I wouldnt recommend them now because of their inability to complete orders, but they did great jobs when I got mine. It breaks around 4lbs, going by feel, single stage, no take up. Just a clean, solid break. Much like a bolt gun. Triggers are all personal preference, what may work great for group A, wont do shit for you. But barrels, you have quite a few options. You can get 26" barrels for Armalites. most likely will be Krieger or Lothar. |
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Thanks for all of the great responses.
I have a stock Bushy AR-15, and the trigger has never bothered me. It could be that you just don't know how well a Porsche can drive if you've only ever driven an AMC Gremlin. 
Assuming I go with an off the shelf setup, are there any brands out there that would have problems with swapping in an upgraded barrel in the future? Does the answer change if it is a piston vs. DI system? |
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"Personally I would spend money on a good barrel and especially a good trigger. " this right there , spend 450 to 600 on a barrel and get a nice timney or other match trigger , the rest is Legos. This is the required investment, followed closely by purchasing premium ammo. FMJ's will not shoot anywhere near as well as match hollow points no matter how good the barrel is. Buy better ammo = shooting smaller groups. |
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