AR Sponsor
Posted: 10/7/2010 1:50:26 AM EDT
|
I need some help and advice. I am in the market for a new hunting rifle. I'm thinkin that I really want Remington's R-25 chambered in .308. I just bought, last October to be exact, my first AR which is a RRA Entry Tactical and I absolutely love everything about it. Which is the exact reason why I would love a hunting rifle built on an AR platform. I would like to know if anyone has owned/shot one and what they think
I am up to other options such as RRA's LAR-308 predator hp or Remington's R-15 chambered in 30 AR, etc. My only problem comming into this is that I wasn't planning on spending more than a grand or so for a rifle w/optics. I was originally looking at T/C's Venture, Remington 700 SPS Tactical, and Howa bolt action rifles in .308. All of which would be around that price range. Would you recommend holding out to get the R-25 or get one of these excellent alternatives? Also I would like a nice scope with a ballistic reticle/elevation adjustments of some sort like the Leupold VX-3 CDS and Nikon's M223. Any recommendations on a scope that wont break the bank would also be very appreciated. Sorry for the novel but thanx for any feedback. |
|
Quoted:
I need some help and advice. I am in the market for a new hunting rifle. I'm thinkin that I really want Remington's R-25 chambered in .308. I just bought, last October to be exact, my first AR which is a RRA Entry Tactical and I absolutely love everything about it. Which is the exact reason why I would love a hunting rifle built on an AR platform. I would like to know if anyone has owned/shot one and what they think I am up to other options such as RRA's LAR-308 predator hp or Remington's R-15 chambered in 30 AR, etc. My only problem comming into this is that I wasn't planning on spending more than a grand or so for a rifle w/optics. I was originally looking at T/C's Venture, Remington 700 SPS Tactical, and Howa bolt action rifles in .308. All of which would be around that price range. Would you recommend holding out to get the R-25 or get one of these excellent alternatives? Also I would like a nice scope with a ballistic reticle/elevation adjustments of some sort like the Leupold VX-3 CDS and Nikon's M223. Any recommendations on a scope that wont break the bank would also be very appreciated. Sorry for the novel but thanx for any feedback. I don't have the R-25 but I do have a DPMS in .308. The R-25 is made for Remington by DPMS so they are pretty similar. The R-25 in .308 would be a good choice for a hunting rig provided you are not going to be carrying it all day. All of the AR type .308s (or 308 based) rifles are going to be fairly heavy. Be hard to get the R-25 and any Leupold for a grand though. |
| I used my LR-308AP4 for elk hunting this year. The only rifle that was heavier in the group I was with was a 300Mag. I think the AR style rifle is great for hunting, just take the measures to lighten it up. I swapped out my 12" rail for a 9", and will be getting my barrel re-profiled down some more to save weight. |
|
Well first what and where are you hunting?
The .308 or .338 AR10 style rifles will kill about anything in North America. But you are going to have to lug around a 10-11 lb rifle loaded with optics. Your location says KY. I've never hunted there, but I did do some hiking around Ft. Knox with a ruck sack and an M60. I'm in no where near the shape I was in back then so I would like a much lighter rifle when I hunt for pleasure. Have you considered one of the AR15 based calibers like a 6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel, 7.62x39 or even the Olympics in .243 and .25 WSSM? All would make great eastern deer rifles and save you a bunch of weight. And depending upon which brand and what options could save you a lot of money too. |
| I don't know if the weight will be 10-11lbs, the R-25 rifles run around 7-8lbs without optics. I built a 338 Federal DPMS rifle (although I had issues with the barrel) the rifle with its Burris Timberline 4x-20mm scope doesn't feel like its 10-11lbs even with a 20 round fully loaded magazine, which you most likely wouldn't have hunting because of mag restrictions. I haven't weighed it so I may be way off base but its pretty manageable and built it for under $1k. The R-25 were built for hunting, that means more than just the camo dip they have, they're light, accurate and reliable. Best suggestion would be to handle one to see what you think of the weight. I love bolt action rifles but haven't touched mine since I started building/buying AR style rifles. Besides isn't an M60 20 some odd pounds? |
|
IF you are hunting eastern deer and hogs build a 6.8 spc with a Bison 16" lightweight barrel and put it on a CAVII lower if you can find one and handload for it.
That will weigh less than 7# with a light scope and rings and is a great all around hunting rifle. If you want a 30cal heavy hitter in AR15 then a 300 OSM would be my choice. It has the ballistics of a 30-06. You can build a 308 bolt action for pretty cheap on a Savage action that will shoot 1/4" - 1/2" As far as scopes, I like the Leupold 2-7x with LR reticle. Got about 4 of them I think. They are fairly cheap at $220 and very light and tough. 2x or under on the bottom end is manditory for me in the woods. If all you do is hunt in stands anything 4x-__ whatever will work for me. The leupold reticle can be a bit limiting. Zeroed at 100 with decent bullet speed and or BC it usually lines up out to 400 yards which is the top of the bar. There is a Weaver 2-10X with a ballistic reticle but I have never tried one. Has more dots and I think it will line up out to 500 yards. The Sightron S1 3-9X mildot is decend and cheap. If you need a 1-4X I like the leupolds again. The 1-4X shotgun scope is $200 and the parallax is set at 75 yards. I have one on a 458 winmag. The 1-4X VXII rifle scope parallax is set at 100 yards and is $300 I think. All of the Nikon scopes I have used are good. All of them range at 12X unless the top power is under 12 then they range at the highest power. |
|
I am not very concerned with weight due to the fact that I gun hunt on a private farm, bout 140 acres, for whitetail and most of the time I spend sitting somewhere.
I realize that the r-25 w/ optics will be much more than the grand I originally wanted to spend, I just wanted to learn more about the gun from people with first hand experience with it and to try to figure out if I want to wait to get it instead of going a cheaper bolt action route. I highly doubt that I will shoot at an animal past 200 yards so the distance the scopes are good for aren't a priority but it would be nice to be able to shoot at some extreme distances, for me at least, just for fun. I have considered other calibers but I don't know much about them. I've been brought up in a family shooting bows, handguns, and shotguns, so I am fairly ignorant when it comes to rifles. All I want out of what ever caliber I get is a proven round that is accurate, capable of long distance shooting, and that will give what ever deer I shoot with it a permanent dirt nap! I also want the ammo to not be outragously priced, and easliy found, like at walmart, bass pro, dicks, knob creek gun range, etc. |
|
The large frame AR in .308 is a good choice for still hunting.
Unless you just must have the camo pattern, I would go with something else besides Remington. The DPMS and Bushmaster .308s are nicer with more choices. I think the R-25 does not have a threaded barrel. If you want flash suppressor or muzzle break, then you'd be out of luck with the R-25. The most popular choices for you might be a 6.8SPC in AR-15 platform or DPMS/Bushmaster in .308. The difference is that the large frame AR will be about 50% heavier......but will have extended reach. |
| I will say this . you can find 308 ammo at any wally world, farm and fleet, and some gas stations . I have a rra lar-8 with a 20 inch barrel and have no problems dragging it around the woods , but I have not installed a bunch of after market tacticool stuff . standard ar furniture and a 3x9 scope thats it. |
|
+1 to above and one reason I have a 308.
You can find ammo anywhere. Have you tried finding 30 RAR ammo ?? I would imagine it will be a hard find. I recently ran out of 6.8 ammo on a trip and found some in Columbus Ga, but that was the only place within 100 miles and it was crappy Remington match ammo. Still I took out a few pigs with it. You can order good 6.8 ammo from SSA and its reasonable. To me for under 300 yards the 6.8 SPC is the best thing going on an AR15 platform. Little recoil and if you load barnes bullets hits hogs like the hammer of thor. Really devastating. There are other good rounds too, like the 6.5G, 458 socom, 50 beowulf, but those 3 can be hard to find ammo and brass for. At least harder to find IMO that a 6.8 SPC. If you want to find Ammo anywhere you better stick to the standards. 308, 243 in an AR10. 223, 7.62x39 in AR15. That said 223 is just not a big enough round for me and 7.62x39 can have feeding problems in ar15 if you dont have the right mag, but you can find 7.62x39 ammo anywhere in the world. Still inside 200-300 yards I prefer the 6.8 spc. Just order 100 rounds at a time or learn to reload. They also make a 7.62x39 and a 6.8 spc in Ruger mini 14. My 89 YO dad has a 6.8 spc mini and loves it. HE has killed quite a few hogs and deer with it. As far as a scope, anything would do for a stand at 200 years, but for 6.8 spc or a 6.5 grendel probably a Sightron 3-9X mildot then you could use the 5 mils for holdover on longer shots. The sightron 3-9x mildot cost about $140. For a 458 socom or a 50 beowulf, I would set it up with a Leupold VXI 2-7x or a 1-4x.. Either one of those will bowl over a deer. |
|
Thanx, you guys are really helpful.
If I end up getting the r-25 or something similar, I don't plan on adding anything but a scope, rings and a sling so I don't really forsee weight being a problem. I'm kinda leaning towards this but am still keeping my options open. I am actually considering, after yalls responses, getting an upper chambered in 6.8 and slappin it on my rra lower. RRA has one called the coyote carbine that says it shoots 3/4 moa. The only thing I'm concerned with is that through researching that caliber, people say that if you go that route that you want to get it chambered in 6.8 spec II with a 1:11 twist so it can shoot the hotter rounds and be more accurate. The rra upper is 6.8 spc with a 1:10 twist. Any thoughts? |
|
i picked up the cheapest savage 10FP i could find in 308 brand new. ordered a boyds thumbhole stock (had to mod to fit) beded the works and slapped on a scope i had here at the house
its at least a 1/2 inch at 100yd when ido my part (im good but i know im not maxing this one out yet ) i had been eyeing a AR10 for some time but here in PA you cant use a semi auto to hunt so instead of a range toy i have a deer gun (think i want a ar in 45acp now tho :) ) 
|
|
so far as the what if hunting semi was ok well i might have held out a bit longer and saved a few more bucks to get the AR 10 in 308 or 260 match grade mind you
what i have in to it is a bit of a trick i won a gun at a fire hall drawing (traded in for 350$ on the savage ) so the 10fp cost me 300 + the 60 bucks of tickets i got that week the stock was 97$ or so shipped devcon bedding steel was 35 and i have lots left over mounts were 6 and the rings and scope i ahd here at te house the bi pod i took off my savage 17HMR heavy barrel sling was wally world sale i milled the stock in a week on spare time with my knife making tools but if you shopped around you could get this for around 1k or so. Even with my gunshop friend the AR10 would have run me 12-1300 no scope |
|
Since hunting with semi autos is legal here in kentucky, I think Im gonna hold out for a ar-10 type rifle or buy RRA's coyote carbine upper in 6.8 spc and just slap it on my lower off my entry tactical.
Does anyone know where I could find that upper cheaper than what is on the rra website? |
| There are better choices in 6.8 SPC than the RRA. It has the SPC2 chamber, which is good, but they still use 1:10 6 groove rifling, which is not. The mid length is also the better choice for a 16" barrel. You might want to consider a Bison |
| I love my AR style rifles but I would probably never hunt anything bigger than a hog with them. I am a bolt action man at hart so I must recommend a Howa 1500 (even stainless if you want and you'll still be way under your budget) which will leave you with enough funds left over to purchase a Vortex Viper and still be under $1k. Heck you could even get something like the Winchester Super X semiauto and a Nikon Buckmasters for under $1k, if you had to have a semi for hunting. |
|
Quoted:
I love my AR style rifles but I would probably never hunt anything bigger than a hog with them. I am a bolt action man at hart so I must recommend a Howa 1500 (even stainless if you want and you'll still be way under your budget) which will leave you with enough funds left over to purchase a Vortex Viper and still be under $1k. Heck you could even get something like the Winchester Super X semiauto and a Nikon Buckmasters for under $1k, if you had to have a semi for hunting. Does that include .308 pattern AR's? If so, I don't see why you wouldn't as the caliber is more important than the rifle when it comes to taking game provoded the rifle is accurate enough Also,. what is "larger than a hog"? I think hogs are harder to kill than deer, though I have to admit I've never shot a hog. |
|
Quoted:
The only thing I'm concerned with is that through researching that caliber, people say that if you go that route that you want to get it chambered in 6.8 spec II with a 1:11 twist so it can shoot the hotter rounds and be more accurate. The rra upper is 6.8 spc with a 1:10 twist. Any thoughts? Buy a Bison upper. http://bisonarmory.com/ |
|
Quoted:
i picked up the cheapest savage 10FP i could find in 308 brand new. ordered a boyds thumbhole stock (had to mod to fit) beded the works and slapped on a scope i had here at the house its at least a 1/2 inch at 100yd when ido my part (im good but i know im not maxing this one out yet ) i had been eyeing a AR10 for some time but here in PA you cant use a semi auto to hunt so instead of a range toy i have a deer gun (think i want a ar in 45acp now tho :) ) http://www.harnerknives.com/wp-content/gallery/holding/dsc02175sm.jpg I am a Savage nut too. Basically the cheapest way to get into an accurate rifle. Buy a sub $300 stevens or a used Savage upper, swap out the trigger to a SSS trigger, put a machined recoil lug on it, free float the tang and barrel and bed it and you will have a shooter. It takes about 5 minutes to change a barrel, and midwayusa carries adams and bennet barrels for $140 including 338 fed and 338-06 and also Shilen match barrel. That is really the big plus. My most accurate savage to date was an ordinary action, set up as above, but in a non bedded choate ultimate varmint stock with a midwayusa Shilen 6mmBR barrel. With just minor load work up it shot 3/4" at 300 yards with an occasional 2 through the same hole. They are great versitile rifles. I have a short action set up as a 308 and a long action control feed set up as a 458 winmag. I can switch either to anything from a 223 to a 458, WSM, etc if I have a barrel and a go-nogo gage. |
|
I'm pretty sure here in Kentucky you can use any centerfire caliber to hunt deer with, so with the fact that our military and police forces use 5.56 to take down people, I wouldn't have a problem trying my AR the way it sits now. I would just like to have a little more knock down power with a bigger bullet so if the deer runs off I'll have a better chance of getting a better blood trail.
I think I'm down to the 6.8 upper or a bolt gun prolly in .308 for now. I really do want a ar-10 of some sort down the road, and chances are that if I get a bolt gun in .308 then once I get the ar-10 i doubt Id shoot the bolt gun much any more, lol. Decisions decisions. Since we are talking about Savage, does anybody know anything about the new Savage Edge and how it shoots? |
|
Here is a reply on the savage forum.
Its different, IE no recoil lug, crappy stock, not sure but I doubt any aftermarket stock would fit and edge and I dont think a SSS trigger will fit. It does have the same floating bolt head and that is part of the accuracy. Quote: So I was looking into buying the oldest boy a Stevens in .223 today.<they had none>.So I bought one of the new Edge series rifles instead. Hers what I found. 1. trigger is non-adjustable though it breaks cleanly at 3 lbs. 2. There is no recoil lug on the action. It is held in place by a slot in the stock and a notch in the reciever. 3. The stock is terrible. 4.There is only one option for scope mounts right now. Luckily they are included. 5. But it cost $319.00 with scope so you can't complain to much. 6. But most importantly the damn thing will shoot!!!! 3 shot groups of .8" @100 meters with off the shelf PPU serbian ammo with only a bipod shooting prone. I will let you all know more once I have worked up a few good loads and spend some seat time at the range. End The factory savage scopes and rings are junk IMO. If it were me I would look for a used savage 308 or get a new stevens off gunbroker. Its easier to find stocks for the staggerfeed, but I like the centerfeed rifles because they feed better. Here is a stevens on Gunbroker for $329. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=195079757 If you join the savage forum for $12 you have access to the buy and sell section and there are tons of savage stuff sold and traded there. A really good bunch of guys. I flip flop around barrels every now and then. I bought a 308 sporter barrel there not too long ago for $60. You could also probably find a good deal on an action on the savage forum and build exactly what you want, or even find an entire rifle. Also very easy to sell savage rifles and parts there. Very active site. |
|
A savage bolt action is almost like a kit gun.
I have one short action rifle, and I have a super light factory tupperware stock, a Duromax with a great recoil pad, and a Choate ultimate varmint stock. I can switch or swap stocks around in about 2 mintues. Once you get used to them you can change a trigger in a few minutes. You can change a bolt head in a few minutes too. Very easy to go from 223 to 308 to a WSM magnum bolt heads. Barrel change also takes about 5 minutes. All in all if you swap out a barrel, bolt head and mag it takes about 10 minutes once you get used to it. I have had this one Short action set up as a 7mm-08 twice, a 338 fed, 223, 22-250, 308 and a couple of others. My next barrel for the short action will be a 338 RCM barrel and maybe a 7mm WSM later. I also have a long action control feed I bought a while back. Have a light tupperware factory stock for it and a Duromax for the heavy loads. Duromax stocks have a great recoil pad. I have had the long action set up as a 30-06, 338-06, 375 Ruger and it now lives as a 458 winmag. I think I am eventually going to switch from the 458 winmag to a 416 Ruger, but I got the 458 winmag barrel for cheap. When I get old and tired of recoil (or maybe before) I am going to set up the short action as a 6.8 SPC. Have any savage action timed and trued and send it to Kreiger for a new barrel, change triggers, change to a machined recoil lug, bed the stock, Top scope and mount and you will have a super tight shooting rifle. 1/4" at 100 yards or less with the right loads. |
| Besides the savage forum you were talking about, what other websites do you know of that I can use to learn about all that stuff, or even books? As I said earlier in this post, I've never been around rifles much, so I don't know much. I honestly didnt know that bolt guns can be as interchangable as an AR. Any website that offers good parts, advice, etc. would be very helpful. |
| I checked out that bison armory link and I really like what I saw. Since you basically build your own rifle, what do you recommend me getting or what is not necessary for a hunting/target shooting rifle? Ex. chrome bolt carrier, muzzle brake/flash hider. stainless barrel or coated, things along those lines. |
|
Just the savage forum mostly.
Just join, hang around and ask questions and read. A lot of good people there. If you dont have a lot of experience with guns I would just buy a savage or stevens 308 complete rather than jump in and try to build one. As far as Bison, as I mentioned above, I would get a 16" lightweight barreled upper. Skip the muzzle brake. Just get a regular bolt carrier. Basically just get a basic 16" lightweight barreled flat top upper. They also sell 18-20" barrels and you get a little more FPS but not a ton or anything. I personally like the 16" barrel better but some guy prefer 18s or 20s. Cant go wrong with any really but a 16" upper is really handy IMO for hunting because its so short. If you want to ever run iron sites then you might want to get normal AR front site or a picatinny gas block for a flip up site later. Figure out what sort of handguard you want. I had a clark carbon fiber on mine, but I was trying to cut weight and I wanted a free float handguard. The rail hand guards are nice for mounting flashlights etc.. |
|
Quoted:
I honestly didnt know that bolt guns can be as interchangable as an AR. Any website that offers good parts, advice, etc. would be very helpful. most rifles are not nearly this easy (and would need tuned before the range after the swap anyhow) savage are made alittle different to help with there time ssaving at the factory and this is the help for you to easy swap parts BTW the crappy cheap stock is from what i hear part way filled with epoxy by the new owner to stiffen it up a great deal till then can fund the $ for a good stock (not needed on the accustock from what i understand) now that i have my bolt gun i hav ot think hard about the ar15vs ar10 in what i wantt o build next |
|
Quoted:
Cool, what about the gas system. Does the length make any difference for what I'm using it for? I had a carbine length gas system on my 16" upper. Never had any issues.. That was before Bison bought out cardinal, IE I bought a cardinal 16" barrel and put it on my receiver. Also had a 20" at one time. This is what I would get, but I am not sure of the benefits of a mid length gas system on a carbine. Look up HTR here or on the 6.8 spc forum and ask him. He is one of the 6.8 gurus. BTW, I just had a thread protector cap on my 6.8 barrel. That is what I preferred, but I did not see that Bison sells one. BA_CAR_16_UPPER Complete 16" Uppers with CAR Length Gas System 16 Recon Barrel Carbine Gas Bare Stainless Finish (you may want it black for hunting, bead blast is nice too for a mat finish) YHM Forged Upper YHM Light Quad CAR YHM Single Rail Basic (or a site block if you ever intend to use iron sites) YHM Phantom FH Stag Bolt (or if you ever want to shoot super hot reloads you might want an enhanced bolt) YM Phosphate Carrier Standard Charging Handle |
|
Gotchs, thats kind of what I threw together when I went to the bison's website. The only difference I think was the forarm, I think I had a free float tube basically. I don't think I have a need for rails on a hunting gun, besides mabey a bipod.
Thanx again, you have been really helpful |
|
I had a 7.62x39 with a quad rail on it and I did not really care for it.
I prefer a 4 rail gas block so you can still attach things to it like a laser or a flip up site and a Clark free float carbon fiber tube. Also like the tapered original style forearm grip. They are nice because they are easy to remove whereas with a free float tube like the clark the barrel nut is integral. |
|
Quoted:
Since hunting with semi autos is legal here in kentucky, I think Im gonna hold out for a ar-10 type rifle or buy RRA's coyote carbine upper in 6.8 spc and just slap it on my lower off my entry tactical. Does anyone know where I could find that upper cheaper than what is on the rra website? http://www.ar15performance.com/ The owner posts almost daily at 68forums and takes the time to answer questions. His uppers have all the correct specs in order to shoot the hottest ammo out there for hunting. Order ammo from SSA and you will not have to worry about buying ammo in a gas station. Not to mention that if you don't reload and pick up your 6.8 brass, you can easily sell it to a reloader for anywhere from .25 to .30 cents each for once fired. That will bring the cost of the rounds down to managable levels for most not reloaders. If you take SSA factory loads, which can be had at times down to .80 cents each + shipping (just watch for deals), you are talking about .60 cents each per round for hunting ammo. Most 308, 30-06, ect hunting loads are going to run $1 a shot (or more) and the brass will sell for less then what the 6.8 does. I shot my first whitetail with my 6.8 the other day and I really couldn't tell much difference between the wounds of the 6.8 and my 308 handloads with 165 gr interbonds. I was using 110 gr accubonds in the 6.8. I have a 6.8 rifle that is lighter by several pounds to my 308, has a 16 inch barrel, has less recoil, is more accurate then my 308, and preforms about the same on deer as my 308. No brainer for me. I rarely ever hunt past 300 yards as you can't normally see farther then that around here because of the woods so the 6.8 fits nicely into what works well. If I was going to hunt game that I thought that I would be taking shots out to 400 or greater, I would choose another round but I really can't see shooting much more then 400 yards at an animal, unless it is already wounded by a misplaced shot or something. |
AR Sponsor