AR Sponsor
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - .264 LBC AR (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 1/27/2010 9:42:40 PM EDT
|
Who saw this at SHOT?
I know what it looks like to me and I talked to Black Hills a little about it. I wonder why Les Baer went this route. |
|
Quoted:
Who saw this at SHOT? I know what it looks like to me and I talked to Black Hills a little about it. I wonder why Les Baer went this route. Word is Les Baer also order 700K worth of brass from Hornady, no one else even got close to that and there is of course a re-order of some sort.... says something, don't care who you are. I also heard the reason Les Baer went this route was due to LACK of data (something related to pressure test data of some sort) from AA, despite asking for it, LB never got it. Just what I heard at SHOT, from fairly credible sources too. RCBS and Redding are working on dies now. Usually my info is pretty legit if I am going to post it here. |
|
Quoted:Word is Les Baer. . . .
Les Baer and his cabal are trying to piggy-back on the success of the 6.5 Grendel by creating a copy-cat cartridge. Whatever. . . . Looks like he's stolen a page from the Microsoft playbook, trying to create Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt with Big Promises on a vaporware product. John | 6.5 Grendel: The Tier One AR Cartridge. | www.65grendel.com |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Who saw this at SHOT? I know what it looks like to me and I talked to Black Hills a little about it. I wonder why Les Baer went this route. Word is Les Baer also order 700K worth of brass from Hornady, no one else even got close to that and there is of course a re-order of some sort.... says something, don't care who you are. I also heard the reason Les Baer went this route was due to LACK of data (something related to pressure test data of some sort) from AA, despite asking for it, LB never got it. Just what I heard at SHOT, from fairly credible sources too. RCBS and Redding are working on dies now. Usually my info is pretty legit if I am going to post it here. Redding already has Grendel dies. Are they working on seperate dies for the LBC? |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Who saw this at SHOT? I know what it looks like to me and I talked to Black Hills a little about it. I wonder why Les Baer went this route. Word is Les Baer also order 700K worth of brass from Hornady, no one else even got close to that and there is of course a re-order of some sort.... says something, don't care who you are. I also heard the reason Les Baer went this route was due to LACK of data (something related to pressure test data of some sort) from AA, despite asking for it, LB never got it. Just what I heard at SHOT, from fairly credible sources too. RCBS and Redding are working on dies now. Usually my info is pretty legit if I am going to post it here. Redding already has Grendel dies. Are they working on seperate dies for the LBC? Just what I was told while at SHOT from a few different people. It did not come from Redding or RCBS however. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:Word is Les Baer. . . .
Les Baer and his cabal are trying to piggy-back on the success of the 6.5 Grendel by creating a copy-cat cartridge. Whatever. . . . Looks like he's stolen a page from the Microsoft playbook, trying to create Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt with Big Promises on a vaporware product. John | 6.5 Grendel: The Tier One AR Cartridge. | www.65grendel.com How so? I could understand you saying that if it was just a rumor but if he is releasing a .264 LBC AR its hard to see how that is vaporware. Obviously as a businessman he figures he's got a chance of filling a market that isn't currently being filled, or not filled well. It seems to me that any move which creates more interest in the AR platform or autoloading rifles in general is great for the long term interests of the second ammendment supporters. |
|
It’s a trademark, not a patent! It is originally a 6mmPPC with a 6.5 neck and a different shoulder angle. As long as they don’t use the trademarked name it is all ok. No one stole anything from anybody!
And since Les Bare did a majority of the advertising for the Grendel what benefit did he get from it? SO, In effect, He paid up front for the brass ( We benefit) and had safe loads developed (Again we benefit) tightened up the spec ( anybody?) and had dies made that do not work the shoulder down. His chamber print is on the net! It is a single angle throat for use with the two loads he sells. He has released the print and design to anyone that wants it. I bet it will be a SAAMI cartridge pretty soon. To sum this up! 1.Now you can get brass from more than one manufacturer 2.There will be ammo available from two respected sources. 3.No more long lead times due to whatever issue you want to use. So why are we whining! Even the 6.8 guys are coming around! |
| AND it gives us a viable source of brass to either use for the 264LBC or to neck up or down for various wildcats! 6mmLBC? 30LBC? The 30LBC is a similar concept to the 30BR and is a very viable competition round. Seriously! ANyways, This may be reason to finally build the 18" 6.5mm gunting rig I wanted! I love my 22" 6.5Grendel but it is not a light hunting rig by any means! |
|
Quoted:
AND it gives us a viable source of brass to either use for the 264LBC or to neck up or down for various wildcats! 6mmLBC? 30LBC? The 30LBC is a similar concept to the 30BR and is a very viable competition round. Seriously! ANyways, This may be reason to finally build the 18" 6.5mm gunting rig I wanted! I love my 22" 6.5Grendel but it is not a light hunting rig by any means! Its good for the 6.5 for sure, plus Les Baer has been in the game a lot longer then anyone else making the TM'd 6.5 round. Honestly Id take a LB product anyday over the the majority of people making AA 6.5s. LB dumped some serious money into this project, says something, and again the reasons I heard behind why he did this is another whole story. |
|
Maybe some of those here who understand chamber design can help me out here. On another forum I've read that the 264LBC chamber is designed specifically for the new Hornady 123grn bullet.
1) Is this true, or even possible? 2) How will this impact other loads like 120 SMK's and smaller bullets? 3) What is meant by a compound chamber in the AA barrels and more importantly why that style? I don't have a 6.5 yet, and in fact have not decided between 6.5, 6.8, or.308 at this point and likely won't be able to afford a Les Baer rifle anyway, so I have no dog in this fight. I'm reading about them and doing my homework, so for now my interest is purely intellectual. |
|
Quoted:On another forum I've read that the 264LBC chamber is designed specifically for the new Hornady 123grn bullet.
On the contrary, the new Hornady 123 AMax was specifically designed for the compound throat of the 6.5 Grendel. This is also noted by Hornady project engineer, Joe Thielen, in Hornady's 6.5 Grendel marketing video at about the 1:10 mark: "The 6.5 Grendel required us to add a new bullet to the AMax line." Click HERE for Hornady's YouTube video. 3) What is meant by a compound chamber in the AA barrels and more importantly why that style?
AA's compound throat means the throat has two angles: (1) where normally we'd have freebore at 0 degrees, we have a shallow throat angle, or "ramp" of rifling as the rifling begins, of one-half degree and, then it changes angles to (2) a standard rifling throat angle of 1.5 degrees. This throat is a general-purpose compromise that takes into account the lower velocities of the 6.5 Grendel (as opposed to bigger 6.5s like the .260 Rem, 6.5 Creedmoor, and the 6.5x47 Lapua), and allows the 6.5 Grendel to have very good accuracy with the very wide weight range and ogive styles of 6.5 bullets from 85 to 144 grains. John | 6.5 Grendel: The Tier One AR Cartridge. | www.65grendel.com |
|
Quoted:
AA's compound throat means the throat has two angles: (1) where normally we'd have freebore at 0 degrees, we have a shallow throat angle, or "ramp" of rifling as the rifling begins, of one-half degree and, then it changes angles to (2) a standard rifling throat angle of 1.5 degrees. A throat like that wouldn't last. A lot of people have played with building different leades, including some that match the ogive of a given bullet exactly. They shoot well, for about 100 rounds and then show very little, if any, advantage over a conventional 1.5 degree leade. |
|
Quoted:A throat like that wouldn't last.
Three things to consider. 6.5 Grendel is: (1) Low pressure, which means less wear on throats. (2) Low velocity, which means less wear on throats. (3) The venerable 6.5x55 Swedish Mausers actually had only a very long one-half degree throat, and were generally known as accurate rifles. But, I admit I don't have the data to rigorously address your speculation. Depends on how you quantify "wouldn't last." Guess we'll see. . . . John | 6.5 Grendel: The Tier One AR Cartridge. | www.65grendel.com |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:A throat like that wouldn't last.
Three things to consider. 6.5 Grendel is: (3) The venerable 6.5x55 Swedish Mausers actually had only a very long one-half degree throat, and were generally known as accurate rifles. But, I admit I don't have the data to rigorously address your speculation. I don't know the 6.5 G specs in and out like you profess to, but other then bullet diameter, what else do the 6.5 Swede and 6.5 G have in common? I own a Swedish Mauser, and the 6.5 Swedish Norma ammo I shoot is quite a bit different in physical geometry at a glance than the 6.5G ammo I have. |
|
Quoted:I don't know the 6.5 G specs in and out like you profess to, but other then bullet diameter, what else do the 6.5 Swede and 6.5 G have in common?
They have in common the one-half degree angle throat. The traditional Swedes had it all the way to the full height of the lands (perhaps modern ones don't, I don't know), the 65G has it until the angle of its compound throat changes to 1.5 degrees. The inference being, that over the more than 100-year history of the 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser, I don't believe they're known for quickly shooting out their one-half degree angle throats. I own a Swedish Mauser
Sold mine to raise cash for 65G stuff! 
John | 6.5 Grendel: The Tier One AR Cartridge. | www.65grendel.com |
|
I for one, fail to see how this is a bad thing. Les Baer is a well respected name in the firearms industry. He’s noted for custom stuff that's pricy but WORKS. I doubt very much he’d go this route unless he was convinced his 264 take on the 6.5 was better in some way than others offered. Plus there’s always the possibility LB has some of his rifles sold to someone hence the amount of brass he purchased. Whatever the case, if you had the cash you could buy a Wilson Combat 6.8 and a 264 Les Baer. AR15 world continues to look great….as long as everyone leaves us alone. 
|
|
Quoted:
Lb's aren't really that pricey when you compare them to a Barrett 6.8 or something like that. When you compare it that way, they don't seem so expensive. On the other hand, from where I sit, its like saying an $80,000 Mercedes isn't expensive compared to a $250,000 Ferrari. I'm going to have to be satisfied with my Civic for a while.
|
|
Quoted:
Would both these cartridges be able to be interchanged between each other? Say someone has a 6.5Grendel, could they shoot the LB round? And vice versa. Yes you can shoot the new LBC .264 in your 6.5 Grendel. I haven't seen any rifles yet. Has anybody heard anything about the Les Baer rifles? I wonder if he has a new improved bolt? |
| YES. I asked explicitily that question and the answer is yes. I have a 22" I have had for yrs and I want to build a 18" and I asked that question as I want to load for both not have to get a whole new die set and whatnot. Gotta pay attention reloading of course to make sure it is all good and everything fits and feeds fine, but yes, ammo will work both ways. |
|
Sorry old boy, you were not there when the Grendel just plain did not work for a certain range of bullet weights. Lothar Walther brought this solution to Bill A. and except for the diameters at the change and the exact length at that point, of the two sections, the whole concept came from Lothar Walther. Bill measured the bullets and chose the diameters to use.
This was done solely to fix the 123 bullet while allowing the 108 to still shoot. This design has nothing what so ever to do with velocity at all. It is solely related to the array of bullet weights and ogive diameters/radiuses. Simply put, it was done to allow excellent accuracy from the chamber using the 8 or 9" twists specified using the entire array of bullets in the 6.5 (0.264) diameter. |
|
The 6.5 x 55 Swede has more of a history than you know.
This cartridge was made during the Norwegian-Swedish union (1814-1905) by Norwegian and Swedish engineers, and the correct name is just 6,5x55. Yes I know someone registered this cartridge as “6,5x55 swedish” to CIP, but those who did this did not create the cartridge. This is a direct quote from a european and he is rightfully proud of his history. Much of the details of cartridge development of that day was lost to history and what we are left with is a more mundane version. The popular history is incomplete as the history shows that it was done during an earlier political time of that region. During that time, the bullets being used were of a different type than used today and the considerations of the day were for those bullets. Remember that all this occurred during the transition from black to smokeless powder and from round nose to spitzer bullets. Bill A. wanted something unique and this is what Lothar Walther gave him. Let me emphasize this fully. GAVE. No agreements, contracts or royalties. The double angle throat was specifically set up for the LW 50 stainless steel. The intersection of the two angles would not stand up to firing in 416R stainless due to the sulfer content of the stainless. If 416 R is used, as it has been, then it must be heat treated to hrc 32 to stand up for a reasonable time. If the sulfer content was on the high side and the material heat condition were to the low side, the throat life would be rather short. A target shooter would end up chasing the contact point in the throat for certain bullets after only a few hundred rounds. If cheap high sulfer stainless is used then the contact point (the point where the bullet is loaded to in the throat will move sufficiently so that loading target ammo would be perplexing to the shooter. An overload from published data would accelerate the problem. This was a fix to one of the original problems with the cartridge. The 6.5 x 55 works with the single angle long throat because of the original bullets that were used. The "cheap and cheerful" would be ok, but better if it was chromed. Under the original set up the cheap barrels would have shot reasonably similar to the target barrels. That gave the cartridge an enhansed value to both the high end user and the economy user. It does shorten reamer life and this is another question of concern for what actually got produced as chambers could be all over the place as it concerns the throats now. Now my engineer gets to fight with your engineer! |
|
So because Les Baer released the 264 LB AR chamber prints for free, I assume that means no one has the AA chamber print in question (I cant say I've seen one)? Or the LW chamber print mentioned above?
Be interesting to see the two for sure, and compare it to the 264 LB AR print. |
|
Quoted:
So because Les Baer released the 264 LB AR chamber prints for free, I assume that means no one has the AA chamber print in question (I cant say I've seen one)? Or the LW chamber print mentioned above? Be interesting to see the two for sure, and compare it to the 264 LB AR print. Good luck with that. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
So because Les Baer released the 264 LB AR chamber prints for free, I assume that means no one has the AA chamber print in question (I cant say I've seen one)? Or the LW chamber print mentioned above? Be interesting to see the two for sure, and compare it to the 264 LB AR print. Good luck with that. With what? |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So because Les Baer released the 264 LB AR chamber prints for free, I assume that means no one has the AA chamber print in question (I cant say I've seen one)? Or the LW chamber print mentioned above? Be interesting to see the two for sure, and compare it to the 264 LB AR print. Good luck with that. With what? Getting a chamber print from AA. You might be able to get in touch with Dave Kiff at PTG, but from what I understand that is pretty dear "intellectual property." I don't know that Dave would actually send you a print. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So because Les Baer released the 264 LB AR chamber prints for free, I assume that means no one has the AA chamber print in question (I cant say I've seen one)? Or the LW chamber print mentioned above? Be interesting to see the two for sure, and compare it to the 264 LB AR print. Good luck with that. With what? Getting a chamber print from AA. You might be able to get in touch with Dave Kiff at PTG, but from what I understand that is pretty dear "intellectual property." I don't know that Dave would actually send you a print. Dave's advice to me 2 years ago when I made the 6.5mmAR was to drop the compound throat angle and increase the leade. LBs leade is .020 longer than the one I used, possibly due to work better with Hornadys secant bullet designs. |
|
Alllllllllllllllrighty then....................... do we have another "6.5" AR or what....?
Stop with all the "leade", and half-cut-secular-sooper-slightly-degreed-ober-throat-stuff......... Geez... 
Give the basic run down, so more can come to know the advantages of the 6.5mm bullet. (and this from a 6.8-guy...) |
|
Quoted:
The 6.5 x 55 Swede has more of a history than you know. This cartridge was made during the Norwegian-Swedish union (1814-1905) by Norwegian and Swedish engineers, and the correct name is just 6,5x55. Yes I know someone registered this cartridge as “6,5x55 swedish” to CIP, but those who did this did not create the cartridge. This is a direct quote from a european and he is rightfully proud of his history. Much of the details of cartridge development of that day was lost to history and what we are left with is a more mundane version. The popular history is incomplete as the history shows that it was done during an earlier political time of that region. During that time, the bullets being used were of a different type than used today and the considerations of the day were for those bullets. Remember that all this occurred during the transition from black to smokeless powder and from round nose to spitzer bullets. Bill A. wanted something unique and this is what Lothar Walther gave him. Let me emphasize this fully. GAVE. No agreements, contracts or royalties. The double angle throat was specifically set up for the LW 50 stainless steel. The intersection of the two angles would not stand up to firing in 416R stainless due to the sulfer content of the stainless. If 416 R is used, as it has been, then it must be heat treated to hrc 32 to stand up for a reasonable time. If the sulfer content was on the high side and the material heat condition were to the low side, the throat life would be rather short. A target shooter would end up chasing the contact point in the throat for certain bullets after only a few hundred rounds. If cheap high sulfer stainless is used then the contact point (the point where the bullet is loaded to in the throat will move sufficiently so that loading target ammo would be perplexing to the shooter. An overload from published data would accelerate the problem. This was a fix to one of the original problems with the cartridge. The 6.5 x 55 works with the single angle long throat because of the original bullets that were used. The "cheap and cheerful" would be ok, but better if it was chromed. Under the original set up the cheap barrels would have shot reasonably similar to the target barrels. That gave the cartridge an enhansed value to both the high end user and the economy user. It does shorten reamer life and this is another question of concern for what actually got produced as chambers could be all over the place as it concerns the throats now. Now my engineer gets to fight with your engineer! You are certainly right about the 6.5x55. One of my favorite cartridges. The Norwegians did have much to do with it. Here's a cartridge print before the 1896 Swede came out: 
JFA |
|
Quoted:
Alllllllllllllllrighty then....................... do we have another "6.5" AR or what....? Stop with all the "leade", and half-cut-secular-sooper-slightly-degreed-ober-throat-stuff......... Geez...
Give the basic run down, so more can come to know the advantages of the 6.5mm bullet. (and this from a 6.8-guy...) I am sure someone can if "we" can stop deviating off on the 6.5 Swede 
|
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Alllllllllllllllrighty then....................... do we have another "6.5" AR or what....? Stop with all the "leade", and half-cut-secular-sooper-slightly-degreed-ober-throat-stuff......... Geez...
Give the basic run down, so more can come to know the advantages of the 6.5mm bullet. (and this from a 6.8-guy...) I am sure someone can if "we" can stop deviating off on the 6.5 Swede If you read the entire thread, it has already been summed up. The new 264 LBC is pretty much a 6.5 Grendel with a different (more conventional) leade angle and a longer throat. Otherwise the brass and loaded ammo is interchangeable. Not complicated. Sounds like a winner to me. My next AR will be a 6mm widcat based on the grendel/LBC case. 6mmAR I guess. Good times. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Lb's aren't really that pricey when you compare them to a Barrett 6.8 or something like that. When you compare it that way, they don't seem so expensive. On the other hand, from where I sit, its like saying an $80,000 Mercedes isn't expensive compared to a $250,000 Ferrari. I'm going to have to be satisfied with my Civic for a while. I heard that |
|
SHOT is a exhibition of new products being marketed to the gun retailer industry - a trade show, like the computer and electronics show. Helps to have a new product, and some didn't, so they didn't go either (Noveske?)
Just exactly what is the nomenclature LBC is using on this new cartridge? Something like .(dot = decimal, as in caliber) two six four, space, caps LBC? I'm not being picky, those interested parties have to deal with computer sorting precedences and search algorithms on the net. "lb264" gets zip on Google last night. It's also what cartridge, shoulder angle, and leade - like .223 or 5.56, you know the drill. I think Les Baer's take on the issue is exactly what he's done 1) released prints to the open domain 2) ordered hundreds of thousands of rounds to spread availability 3) established an industry nomenclature any barrel maker can copy - no license fees or trademark hassles inventing a get-around name. It's not a 6.5whatsit, is that compatible? Les just set the VHS standard, the IBM clone pattern, the internal combustion engine as we know it. Not Beta, Mac, or Wankel anymore. Frankly, it puts new energy into the marketing of the caliber. Controversy can and will get attention, more people will discover the caliber, more sales will result, and everyone can benefit. Consistent, short delivery times and plenty of stock on hand can alleviate a known bottleneck in 6.5 sales. As pointed out in other posts elsewhere, now it will be an All American cartridge with suppliers lined up to back it. |
|
Quoted:
I think Les Baer's take on the issue is exactly what he's done 1) released prints to the open domain 2) ordered hundreds of thousands of rounds to spread availability 3) established an industry nomenclature any barrel maker can copy - no license fees or trademark hassles inventing a get-around name. It's not a 6.5whatsit, is that compatible? Les just set the VHS standard, the IBM clone pattern, the internal combustion engine as we know it. Not Beta, Mac, or Wankel anymore. That is exactly what I think is happening here. And the part in red, that number is low, at least as far as brass production is concerned. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - .264 LBC AR (Page 1 of 3)
AR Sponsor