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Posted: 12/30/2009 8:10:21 AM EDT
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I wanna build a LR AR-15, i'd like to use this gun for 400yds-800yds max , i'd like to stay with the AR15 and not move up to the AR10. i like the grendel but ammo seems scarce like the beowulf (which i've owned for 4 months and have not shot yet).
which chambering do you think would produce the best balance of accuracy, energy, and ammo availibilty? |
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Quoted:
You didn't say for what. Long range target shooting, hunting, ect. exactly. if you just want to punch paper 5.56 75 gr or 77 gr bullets will do fine. if it's flesh you want to kill the 6.5 grendel is hard to beat. 6.8 is good as well. reload and your in business. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
You didn't say for what. Long range target shooting, hunting, ect. exactly. if you just want to punch paper 5.56 75 gr or 77 gr bullets will do fine. if it's flesh you want to kill the 6.5 grendel is hard to beat. 6.8 is good as well. reload and your in business. it will see paper punching, but it would also be for varmint/hunting, think coyotes, foxes, bobcats, maybe smaller wild pig. i dont reload so though i'd love the grendel i dont wanna be stuck in the same boat as i am with my beowulf. if hornady does join the game, they will prolly be sold out all the time as well. i guess im stuck between the 223 and the 6.8, i was considering the 6.8, does it use any upper receiver or does it have to be a 6.8 upper receiver. |
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I couldnt imagine owning a beowolf for 4 months and not shooting it. i get withdrawls from my 458socom after not shooting it a month. 223 20 in. bbl if your not walking too much. weight can be an issue sometimes. yea, i've had it awhile and have not even shot it once. its sad. i guess after im done building a couple AR's im on now, i'll just spend the money and order 200rnds and wait a few months for it. weight is not a issue, i guess the good thing about a 223 is everything would interchange. |
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You didn't say for what. Long range target shooting, hunting, ect. exactly. if you just want to punch paper 5.56 75 gr or 77 gr bullets will do fine. if it's flesh you want to kill the 6.5 grendel is hard to beat. 6.8 is good as well. reload and your in business. it will see paper punching, but it would also be for varmint/hunting, think coyotes, foxes, bobcats, maybe smaller wild pig. i dont reload so though i'd love the grendel i dont wanna be stuck in the same boat as i am with my beowulf. if hornady does join the game, they will prolly be sold out all the time as well. i guess im stuck between the 223 and the 6.8, i was considering the 6.8, does it use any upper receiver or does it have to be a 6.8 upper receiver. 6.8, 6.5, .204, .50 BW, hell almost any caliber except long action calibers use the standard receiver. just get a barrel, bolt and mags and your shooting. |
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It sounds like you should invest in a reloading setup BEFORE purchasing another expensive-to-shoot rifle. the cost of ammo is not the problem, its obtaining it. i dont want to reload, so im kinda at the mercy of whats available i'll prolly go with a 223 or 6.8 thanks all |
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You are gonna be disappointed in the 6.8 for long range.
I would wait and see about the availability of the 6.5 Grendel Hornady ammo before making your decision. You can bet that there will be a shitstorm of orders when it first becomes available, but it should settle down after that. |
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At what range do most REALLY shoot? I am betting 95% of all shooters dream about shooting 600 but never do it.
The 6.8 will hold it's own to 500yds and do better at closer distances like 300 and under. Both the 6.5 and 6.8 are 300yd cartridges for deer or hogs which takes care of most hunters unless they live out west here or shoot over a bean field. Punching paper is a different story but for most use the 6.5 and 6.8 are much closer in performance than most think they are. 6.5 Grendel using Bill's max loads in a 16" barrel- zeroed at 200yds drops at 300yds. due to energy being less than 1000ft lbs 300 yds is about max for taking deer or hogs. the same temp, pressure line of sight and program used to figure all drops in both calibers. 100 Nosler-2600fps––drop 9.4/801 ft lbs 107 SMK-2545fps––––-drop9.5/878ft lbs––match bullet 123 SMK-2472fps––––drop 9.4/1083ft lbs––match bullet 120TSX-2472fps––––drop9.8/984ft lbs 6.8 SPC SSA factory ammo 16" barrel 100 Nosler-2700fps––drop9.0/809ft lbs 110 Nosler-2630fps––drop9.0/939ft lbs 110TSX-2630fps––-drop 9.5/856ft lbs ––––––added 6.8 handloads max 100 Nosler 2950fps––-drop 7.4/993ftlbs 110 Nosler 2750fps––drop8.2/1040ftlbs Available factory ammo 6.5 Grendel Hornady-123 Amax Wolf -120fmj ––––––-123 soft point AA––––120 Nosler ––––––-123 Lapua ––––––-129 SST ––––––-90gr TNT 6.8 SPC Corbon––––––110 TTSX ––––––––––––––115 SMK ––––––––––––––115 subsonic DoubleTap––110 Vmax ––––––––––––––-115 FMJ ––––––––––––––-110TTSX ––––––––––––––-110 OTM Hornady––––-110 Vmax ––––––––––––––-110 OTM Rem.––––––––-115 FMJ ––––––––––––––-115 HPBT ––––––––––––––115 corelokt ––––––––––––––115SMK Sellier&Bellot-110 TTSX ––––––––––––––––-110 Vmax SSA––––––––––––85 TSX––––––––––––SSAs loads available in Commercial and Tactical velocities ––––––––––––––––90 TNT ––––––––––––––––95 frangable ––––––––––––––––97 AP ––––––––––––––––100 Nosler Accubond ––––––––––––––––110 Nosler Accubond ––––––––––––––––110 Sierra Pro hunter ––––––––––––––––110 TTSX ––––––––––––––––115 SMK I'll try to compare drops and drift using only available factory ammo and get a chart up. |
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Quoted:
At what range do most REALLY shoot? I am betting 95% of all shooters dream about shooting 600 but never do it. The 6.8 will hold it's own to 500yds and do better at closer distances like 300 and under. Both the 6.5 and 6.8 are 300yd cartridges for deer or hogs which takes care of most hunters unless they live out west here or shoot over a bean field. Punching paper is a different story but for most use the 6.5 and 6.8 are much closer in performance than most think they are. 6.5 Grendel using Bill's max loads in a 16" barrel- zeroed at 200yds drops at 300yds. due to energy being less than 1000ft lbs 300 yds is about max for taking deer or hogs. the same temp, pressure line of sight and program used to figure all drops in both calibers. 100 Nosler-2600fps––drop 9.4/801 ft lbs 107 SMK-2545fps––––-drop9.5/878ft lbs––match bullet 123 SMK-2472fps––––drop 9.4/1083ft lbs––match bullet 120TSX-2472fps––––drop9.8/984ft lbs 6.8 SPC SSA factory ammo 16" barrel 100 Nosler-2700fps––drop9.0/809ft lbs 110 Nosler-2630fps––drop9.0/939ft lbs 110TSX-2630fps––-drop 9.5/856ft lbs ––––––added 6.8 handloads max 100 Nosler 2950fps––-drop 7.4/993ftlbs 110 Nosler 2750fps––drop8.2/1040ftlbs wow, thanks for the stats. the 6.8 and 6.5 are pretty close. i have a gun setup for in home defense, another for 0-200yds, another that i like out to 400yds, and i'm getting a 50bmg for when i wanna go to west texas for some LR shooting. i was just wanting something to fill the 400-600 or 800 range. not that i will do it alot, but i got a couple friends with ranches here in texas, so i could use it for coyotes or plinking targets at any distance i want really. |
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This post is a good example of a commonly overlooked factor in long range shooting. Almost always people present elevation trajectory data when comparing different cartridges and ignore the windage data. Elevation is pretty easy to correct for if you know the range. There are many ways to get good range to target information; Fro high tech laser-range finders to using the scope reticle and target size similar to a surveyors stadia rod and transit/theodolite to estimate range.
A more difficult variable to correct for is crosswind (windage). The longer the shot, the more difficult it is to correct for windage. Problems doping out the winds include; Gusting winds, Thermals, and Eddys. There are several way to figure out the windage corrections, but I am not going to get into that here. The point I want to make is that High Ballistic Coefficient (BC) are not as sensitive to crosswinds as bullets with low BC. I did ballistic calculations using the JBM ballistic calculator. As you can see, even at the lower velocities the 6.5mm (0.264") high BC bullets perform a bit better and in some cases a lot better then the 6.8mm (0.277"). With the low BC 6.8mm bullets (100gr Nosler AC) the windage correction is twice the elevation correction. So if you are looking for a long range chambering you want to go for a caliber that can shoot high BC bullets. In AR variants, in factory ammo that means the 6.5 Grendel. If you reload and are not opposed to getting into a whildcat, you have more options. I would consider something in 6x45mm (0.244") or a 6.35mm (0.257") cat. You might also want to look into a standard AR in 5.56x45mm (223Rem) with a 20-24 inch barrel. Here is the link for those of you that want to check your pet loads. JBM Ballistics If you want to move up to an AR10 type platform then you have more options. The 260REM and the 6.5 Creedmoor come to mind but I problably would go with the 260 REM. I hope this helps 320pf Edit: There is an error on the Noser website. The BC and sectional Density are transposed and the incorrect data have been loaded into the preloaded factory bullet in the JBM program. See below for the correction. Range––––––-Drop––––––Drop––––-Windage––––-Windage––––-Velocity––––Mach––––Energy––––––Time––––-Lead––––-Lead (yd)––––––––––-(in)––––––-(MOA)––––(in)––––––––––(MOA)––––––(ft/s)––––––(none)––––(ft•lbs)––––––-(s)––––––-(in)––––––(MOA wind: 10.0 mph Wind Angle: 90.0 deg 6.5 Grendel 100NosBT-2600 300––––––––––––10.2––––––3.2––––-10.5––––––––––3.3––––––-1897.6––––––1.700––––––-799.4––––––0.405––––––-71.2–––––22.7 107SMK2545 300––––––––––––10.1––––––3.2–––-–-9.3––––––––––3.0–––––––1930.2––––––1.729–––––-885.1––––––0.405–––––––71.3–––––22.7 120SMK2472 300––––––––––––10.8––––––3.4–––––9.6––––––––––3.1–––––––1877.4––––––1.682–––––-939.0––––––0.418–––––––73.5–––––23.4 120TSX-2472 300––––––––––––11.0––––––3.5––––-10.3–––––––––3.3––––-––1841.7––––––1.650–––––-903.6––––––0.421–––––––74.2–––––23.6 6.8SPC 100NosAC-2700 300––––9.6––––3.1––-10.9––––3.5––––1926.9––––1.726––––824.3––––0.394––––69.4––––22.1 100NosAC-2950 300––––7.8––––2.5––-9.6––––3.0––––-2133.5––––1.911––-1010.5––-0.358––-63.1––-20.1 100NosAC-2700 300––––––––––––13.4––––––4.3––––-21.6––––––––––6.9––––-––1461.6––––––1.309–––––474.3––––––0.454–––––––79.9––––25.4 100NosAC-2950 300––––––––––––10.8––––––3.4––––-18.9––––––––––6.0––––-––1629.8––––––1.460–––––589.7––––––0.410–––––––72.2––––23.0 110NosAC-2630 300––––––––––-9.7––––––––-3.1––––9.7––––––––––3.1––––-––1957.6––––––1.753–––––935.9––––––0.396–––––––69.72––––2.2 110NosAC-2750 300––––––––––-8.7––––––––-2.8––––-9.1––––––––––2.9––––-––2059.3––––––1.844–––––1035.6––––––0.378–––––––66.5––––21.2 110TSX-2630 300––––––––––-10.2––––––-3.3––––-11.3––––––––––3.6––––-––1869.3––––––1.674–––––853.3––––––0.405–––––––71.4––––22.7 Quoted:
At what range do most REALLY shoot? I am betting 95% of all shooters dream about shooting 600 but never do it. The 6.8 will hold it's own to 500yds and do better at closer distances like 300 and under. Both the 6.5 and 6.8 are 300yd cartridges for deer or hogs which takes care of most hunters unless they live out west here or shoot over a bean field. Punching paper is a different story but for most use the 6.5 and 6.8 are much closer in performance than most think they are. 6.5 Grendel using Bill's max loads in a 16" barrel- zeroed at 200yds drops at 300yds. due to energy being less than 1000ft lbs 300 yds is about max for taking deer or hogs. the same temp, pressure line of sight and program used to figure all drops in both calibers. 100 Nosler-2600fps––drop 9.4/801 ft lbs 107 SMK-2545fps––––-drop9.5/878ft lbs––match bullet 123 SMK-2472fps––––drop 9.4/1083ft lbs––match bullet 120TSX-2472fps––––drop9.8/984ft lbs 6.8 SPC SSA factory ammo 16" barrel 100 Nosler-2700fps––drop9.0/809ft lbs 110 Nosler-2630fps––drop9.0/939ft lbs 110TSX-2630fps––-drop 9.5/856ft lbs ––––––added 6.8 handloads max 100 Nosler 2950fps––-drop 7.4/993ftlbs 110 Nosler 2750fps––drop8.2/1040ftlbs |
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Quoted:
This post is a good example of a commonly overlooked factor in long range shooting. Almost always people present elevation trajectory data when comparing different cartridges and ignore the windage data. Elevation is pretty easy to correct for if you know the range. There are many ways to get good range to target information; Fro high tech laser-range finders to using the scope reticle and target size similar to a surveyors stadia rod and transit/theodolite to estimate range. A more difficult variable to correct for is crosswind (windage). The longer the shot, the more difficult it is to correct for windage. Problems doping out the winds include; Gusting winds, Thermals, and Eddys. There are several way to figure out the windage corrections, but I am not going to get into that here. The point I want to make is that High Ballistic Coefficient (BC) are not as sensitive to crosswinds as bullets with low BC. I did ballistic calculations using the JBM ballistic calculator. As you can see, even at the lower velocities the 6.5mm (0.264") high BC bullets perform a bit better and in some cases a lot better then the 6.8mm (0.277"). With the low BC 6.8mm bullets (100gr Nosler AC) the windage correction is twice the elevation correction. So if you are looking for a long range chambering you want to go for a caliber that can shoot high BC bullets. In AR variants, in factory ammo that means the 6.5 Grendel. If you reload and are not opposed to getting into a whildcat, you have more options. I would consider something in 6x45mm (0.244") or a 6.35mm (0.257") cat. You might also want to look into a standard AR in 5.56x45mm (223Rem) with a 20-24 inch barrel. Here is the link for those of you that want to check your pet loads. JBM Ballistics If you want to move up to an AR10 type platform then you have more options. The 260REM and the 6.5 Creedmoor come to mind but I problably would go with the 260 REM. I hope this helps 320pf Range––––––-Drop––––––Drop––––-Windage––––-Windage––––-Velocity––––Mach––––Energy––––––Time––––-Lead––––-Lead (yd)––––––––––-(in)––––––-(MOA)––––(in)––––––––––(MOA)––––––(ft/s)––––––(none)––––(ft•lbs)––––––-(s)––––––-(in)––––––(MOA wind: 10.0 mph Wind Angle: 90.0 deg 6.5 Grendel 100NosBT-2600 300––––––––––––10.2––––––3.2––––-10.5––––––––––3.3––––––-1897.6––––––1.700––––––-799.4––––––0.405––––––-71.2–––––22.7 107SMK2545 300––––––––––––10.1––––––3.2–––-–-9.3––––––––––3.0–––––––1930.2––––––1.729–––––-885.1––––––0.405–––––––71.3–––––22.7 120SMK2472 300––––––––––––10.8––––––3.4–––––9.6––––––––––3.1–––––––1877.4––––––1.682–––––-939.0––––––0.418–––––––73.5–––––23.4 120TSX-2472 300––––––––––––11.0––––––3.5––––-10.3–––––––––3.3––––-––1841.7––––––1.650–––––-903.6––––––0.421–––––––74.2–––––23.6 6.8SPC 100NosAC-2700 300––––––––––––13.4––––––4.3––––-21.6––––––––––6.9––––-––1461.6––––––1.309–––––474.3––––––0.454–––––––79.9––––25.4 100NosAC-2950 300––––––––––––10.8––––––3.4––––-18.9––––––––––6.0––––-––1629.8––––––1.460–––––589.7––––––0.410–––––––72.2––––23.0 110NosAC-2630 300––––––––––-9.7––––––––-3.1––––9.7––––––––––3.1––––-––1957.6––––––1.753–––––935.9––––––0.396–––––––69.72––––2.2 110NosAC-2750 300––––––––––-8.7––––––––-2.8––––-9.1––––––––––2.9––––-––2059.3––––––1.844–––––1035.6––––––0.378–––––––66.5––––21.2 110TSX-2630 300––––––––––-10.2––––––-3.3––––-11.3––––––––––3.6––––-––1869.3––––––1.674–––––853.3––––––0.405–––––––71.4––––22.7 Quoted:
At what range do most REALLY shoot? I am betting 95% of all shooters dream about shooting 600 but never do it. The 6.8 will hold it's own to 500yds and do better at closer distances like 300 and under. Both the 6.5 and 6.8 are 300yd cartridges for deer or hogs which takes care of most hunters unless they live out west here or shoot over a bean field. Punching paper is a different story but for most use the 6.5 and 6.8 are much closer in performance than most think they are. 6.5 Grendel using Bill's max loads in a 16" barrel- zeroed at 200yds drops at 300yds. due to energy being less than 1000ft lbs 300 yds is about max for taking deer or hogs. the same temp, pressure line of sight and program used to figure all drops in both calibers. 100 Nosler-2600fps––drop 9.4/801 ft lbs 107 SMK-2545fps––––-drop9.5/878ft lbs––match bullet 123 SMK-2472fps––––drop 9.4/1083ft lbs––match bullet 120TSX-2472fps––––drop9.8/984ft lbs 6.8 SPC SSA factory ammo 16" barrel 100 Nosler-2700fps––drop9.0/809ft lbs 110 Nosler-2630fps––drop9.0/939ft lbs 110TSX-2630fps––-drop 9.5/856ft lbs ––––––added 6.8 handloads max 100 Nosler 2950fps––-drop 7.4/993ftlbs 110 Nosler 2750fps––drop8.2/1040ftlbs I believe you have some numbers off especially if you use the reversed numbers on Noslers website the SD and BC numbers are reversed for the 100 Nosler. |
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The JBM site has preloaded data for most of the bullet manufactures. That is the data I used. The JBM site lists a G1 BC for 100gr AcB of 0.186 just like that on the Nosler website. However, I agree that it looks like the Nosler website transposed the BC with the sectional density (which is 0.323 on the Nosler website). All of the other results check out.
Still my comments about doping out the windage are still valid. Here are the corrected data: 100NosAC-2700 300––––9.6––––3.1––-10.9––––3.5––––1926.9––––1.726––––824.3––––0.394––––69.4––––22.1 100NosAC-2950 300––––7.8––––2.5––-9.6––––3.0––––-2133.5––––1.911––-1010.5––-0.358––-63.1––-20.1 |
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