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Posted: 2/3/2008 8:37:55 PM EDT
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Ok, so right off the bat I have a budget of 600 dollars. That being said I already have optics for my project. So the objective here is to create a reasonably light backup hunting rifle in 6.8 SPC. I'm hoping for a 14.5 inch barrel with a perm. flash hider, but I dont even know if those exist, so I'd be willing to settle for 16". It needs to be flat top. The handguards are NOT to be railed in any way. This is something I'm going to be lugging around with me all day out in the field, possible along with my main bolt action hunting rife, for shooting hogs and other "targets of opportunity" other than long range (in my case 250+ yards) deer shots. So once again I'll reiterate that I'd like it to be light. And I'm not opposed to buying this in pieces and putting it all together myself. I'm kind of pulling my hair out on this because being pretty new to the AR world I have no real idea of even where to start I really would appreciate any help I can get, so let me know what you guys think. Thanks W |
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Look Here Look at either of the bottom two. You get the lite weight you are after plus a barrel that can shoot anything out there. IS accurate well past your 250' stated needs. IT is in the price range of what you are looking for. You are getting a lite 11:1 4 groove SPCII chamber in a 16" barrel. The accuracy on these are from .5"-1.5" moa depending on ammo used so your hunting needs should be good there also. You are also getting from someone that backs up his products. Tim ETA: Here's the description on the grunt lite and carbon lite you just need to add muzzle device and BCG: - KT68 16 inch Grunt Lite KT68 upper for AR-15, 6.8mm SPC lightweight 16" barrel with chrome-lined chamber and bore, four groove rifling with 1:11" twist, forged CMT flat-top upper receiver, M4 feedramps, mid-length gas, mid-length handguards with heat shields, YHM single rail gas block, Cerakote black finish on barrel, 30-day money back guarantee, one-year warranty. Muzzle device must be selected below. Note: needs 6.8mm bolt, carrier and charge handle, orderable seperately. Price: $490.00 KT68 upper for AR-15, 6.8mm SPC lightweight 16" barrel with chrome-lined chamber and bore, four groove rifling with 1:11" twist, forged CMT flat-top upper receiver, HI/PER FORM carbon fiber tube forend, M4 feed ramps, mid-length gas, MI low-profile gas block, Cerakote black finish on barrel, 30-day money-back guarantee, 1-year warranty. Muzzle device must be selected below. Note: needs charge handle, 6.8mm bolt and bolt carrier, orderable separately. Price: $585.00 |
| Unfortunately money for bolt/carrier puts me over budget. I guess I like the way the first one sounds, just I would prefer the standard front sight to a railed gas block so I dont have to buy it later on. You wouldnt happen to know if they offer a broke college student discount, would you? |
I here ya we have all been there. Hell some of are always there. If it were me I would either find the extra cash. Wait or buy the upper without the BCG and look on the EE for it. Give Tim @ Ko-Tonics a call tell him what you have to work with and see what advice he can give you. You an get a complete upper from RRA for your budget but it is a10:1 non cl barrel. It does have the SPCII chamber. For me I would rather make the sacrifices whatever they maybe. Be it time or money and get the Ko-tonics barreled upper. That barrel represents the best features of what is available right now for a hunting 6.8 AR IMHO. There are possibilities that is why I say give Tim a call and see what can be worked out.Tim |
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sounds like very sound advice. i'm still curious if anybody makes a 14.5" in 6.8 though. from what i've heard ko-tonics is top of the line and it sound like maybe i should go that route... that is when I save up the cash. at this rate, going to school full time with just an 80 a month allowance for non-essentials, its gonna be a while. |
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www.lanworldinc.com sells the Stag 6.8 SPC 16" M4 profile flattop upper for $488 including a bolt and carrier as well as one stainless steel magazine. And you can choose if you want a gas block or front sight for no extra charge. That's where I got mine. Chamber is Improved SAAMI. Tell Chris the guy from Albuquerque sent you. Me and two buddies have ordered 5 uppers from him in the last 6 months. Great service, even better prices. -David Edgewood, NM |
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I've got to second (or third) the KT-69 superlight upper. Nobody else makes one of this profile with the 1 in 11" and SAAMI II chamber. The grunt is only $490, and you can get a Bolt, then use a carrier from any other AR you own, and you are right at $600. Or, buy one off the EE, and you are there. |
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The Stag uppers I've seen are all Carbine length, whereas RRA gives you a Mid-Length option. For the kind of rifle you've described check out item number SPC0375X 6.8 SPC Mid-Length A4 Upper Half...$475.00! Seems to meet all your criteria. And later, if you think you need an 1/11" barrel,as you mentioned you can upgrade. Have fun |
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RRA one is a Wilson blank the Stag is a Shaw. If I had to guess I would say the Wilson might be more accurate. Other than that if the chambers are the same and the twist is the same and neither are CL then no. Go with a Kotonics more for the 11:1 4 groove and CL then any other reason. Look at some or the numbers 11:1 barrel put up and how much higher loads they can take then 10:1 spc II chamber or not. ETA: removed stuff that would take this thread in a different direction. tw Tim |
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have any of y'all had any experience with the yhm customizable free float tubes? the ones that you screw the rails on to. ko-tonics has them for a pretty good price, and i'm wondering if i should save a little more and get one with that? i know i said no rails but i'm willing to try new things... plus a summer job would make it somewhat easier to buy accesories. |
Good advice....and I would give KoTonics a call after Shot Show week and get the upper and a bolt without a carrier... You can find a carrier on the EE for good price if you don't already have one...same for handguards... For me it was the Chrome lined barrel and chamber and the in 1 in 11 rate of twist....NO ONE ELSE MAKES THIS at the present time... Also...If it weren't for Ko-Tonics and Silver State armory bringing the 6.8 back up to the speed it was designed for...I wouldn't own one... Shoot me an IM if you need a BC I have a couple extra 'stripped' CMT's I can let you have at a reasonble price if thats all thats keeping you from getting a KT...hate to see a person buy one thing than have to sell it at a loss just to get what they really wanted in the first place...  Edited to add I just found a nice pair of OD (Green) Middie Handguards Rock River (Armalite) I believe I will even throw these in with the deal... Just send the stripped BC into Tim and have him fit a bolt to it for you and complete the BC group... |
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BRAVO 9divdoc! I was actually considering doing this for this young man....until I realized I had just sold that carrier to a friend who himself just bought a grunt KT-68 and needed the carrier "for a song." He bought the upper with no HG, and the bolt (I gave him my old takeoff midlength plastic guards) and then I gave him the extra carrier I had for well....a real steal, since he helps me out a lot at the ranch. I just couldn't stand by and watch him purchase anything other than the KT-68. Plus, Tim is good people and deserves the business. You are a gentleman and a scholar, sir.... 
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I actually bit the bullet this past month and ordered a Ko-Tonics Combat Edition. Yeah I also had to spring for the bolt, (I had a carrier) and a muzzle device. And yeah it was over $600 total, and yeah the wife was pissed. Oh well. I'm happy and thats all that matters.
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Well, it's a little bit of a hassel, cause I can't find any to order.  SS is till out of stock on both ammo and Brass. They've been out so long I expect the first stuff they have back in stock will be gone as fast as it come in. It almost feels like getting the finger, when they sell a huge order to one large customer and make thousands of small customers wait. I know buisness is Buisness but it still feels that way....But I digressTo the OP, Get the Ko-tonics! I have an 18 inch upper on order that was 750$, about 100$ over my original Budget with the BCG, Mag and Flash hider. I had to wait till I was able to do a side job and come up with the extra, but I've learned the hard way the mistake of getting less than what I wanted and then loseing money to sell it and get what I want. With the generous offers from the kind Gentleman above you should be pretty close to getting what you want. Ricky |
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Thank you all so much for the advice and help. This has really helped make up my mind on what to get! As of now I probably should have just enoug to get the upper and carrier from 9divdoc (waiting to hear back from him on the pricing), and then in a few monts that ko-tonics barrel is as good as mine! On a slightly unrelated note, does anyone know how to get the "avatar" or whatever by your name when you post? |
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Art has said he is keeping an inventory of the size and order frequency that this type of thing will never happen again. I see no reason not to take him at his word. He has proved to me to be an honest and straightforward gentleman and business owner. These traits aren't found very much in business these days. We are only talking a little more than a week wait now. Tim |
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Research & destroy I got 2 IMs from you ..one with nothing in the subject line or body...one with something in the subject line nothing in the body I sent you a couple IMs with my personal email in them so you could write me Dont like posting such things but here is my proposal Write me back at my email addy if you are interested This proposal is for Research & destroy only....sorry Also appologize if this is innapropriate to the thread but I didnt how else to reach him.. I got a new never been assembled stripped bolt carrier with key swagged on I think I got a couple extra firing pins and a cam for it...and a pair of like new mid length Armalite/Rock River Arms OD (Green) handguards This all would run retail @ about $80.00 for a CMT stripped bolt carrier with staked key 4.50 for a cam pin 6.00 for a firing pin 20.00 for the handguards How does $50.00 Shipped any place in CONUS (lower 48 states) sound? You send these parts off to Tim and Ko-Tonics let him put it all together for you making sure everything fits together... If it doesn't work out....send it back and I will send you your money back edited to make sure I had all the correct info. |
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I sent an email to the address you gave me in your IM. Sorry, but for some reason all the IM's I sent are messing up, and my inbox keeps showing old messages as new, some seriously wierd stuff. If you didn't get the email that I sent you @ 6:49, then email me at [email protected]. Thank for you very generous offer and sorry about the screw-ups. Walter |
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I hope I'm not too late. Think about it. The RRA sells for less then 450 dollars shipped. That is if you buy from legal transfers. Sure, it’s not Chrome line, and its 1 in 10 twist. But it is still a good barrel, because it has the SPC II chamber. It will shoot all the ammo just fine. RRA says on there website that it shoots 1 MOA. I understand others who tell you to buy the best and be done with it. But even if you wanted to upgrade your RRA to a ko-tonic barrel in the future, the whole price is the same as if you were to buy a complete upper from Ko-tonic now. A 16 inch Ko-tonic barrel sells for 215.00 dollars. 450.00 (RRA upper complete) + 215.00 (16 in. Kotonic barrel) + 18.00 (shipping) = 683.00 dollars You get a RRA, you save money, you get it now. You can have fun with it. Later when you have the money, and you want the very best barrel for the 6.8 spc you can spend 215.00 dollars for a kotonic barrel. And in the end you spent the same as if you bought a complete Ko-tonic upper. Ko-tonic upper would cost, 490.00 (upper and barrel) + 130.00 (BCG) + 18.00 (charging handle) + 26.00 (Flash hider) + 25.00 (shipping) = 689.00 Look above, pretty much the same. It’s up to you. If you want a 6.8 upper that will work very well NOW. RRA is a good choice. And if you want to get the best barrel, you can. And it won’t cost extra. If you want to save the money, and wait longer, then you can get the Ko tonic. Both ways are good ways. You will receive a quality piece of work.  Heck, you should check out Armalites new 6.8 and see when it will be available and what it offers at what price. |
Be sure to calculate what you can sell a 'used' RR for in case buyers remorse sets in and you come to the conclusion that you wished you'd have bought the Ko-Tonics Mid Length Light Wt 'Grunt' model |
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Think about it. The 1 in 11 twist is nice. But how important is it for you to be able to load the absolute hottest loads out there, right now? If your in college, I bet you don't even reload. So the 1 in 11 twist is a mute point right now. Later on if you ever start reloading, and you think you need the absolute best barrel so you can reload the absolute hottest rounds. Buying another barrel is always a choice. And it is not going to cost more either.(as explained above.) As far as chrome lined. I highly doubt your going to use your ar15 in battle, and will not be able to clean the rifle for long periods of times. ALso, todays ammo contain plenty of lube, and actually when fired helps protect the barrel from rust. As always, you can buy a chrome lined barrel in the future. And Armalite has come out with a 6.8 rifle. Maybe you should wait till we know a bit more about it. It could very well be chromelined, 1 in 11 twist, SPC II chambered, and sell at a good price. |
I don't get it. There is NO difference in quality between the RRA and Kotonic, besides the barrel. And the barrel can always be bought later when the money is coming in at a higher rate. And as seen above, even if you buy the barrel later. You are paying the SAME price! I understand Ko tonic is a great company. They helped the 6.8 SPC grow. But enough with this Ko tonic is the only way bullsh*t.   There is other ways, to get the best, at a better or equal price. Please people, use your brain. I understand if we were talking about model 1 sales 6.8 or Kotonics 6.8, But the quality of the Kotonics 6.8 and the RRA 6.8 is the SAME. Besides the barrel. And the RRA's barrel is not a bad barrel too. |
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While I agree with you if money is real tight right now and you want to get into 6.8 going RRA while not the ideal will work very well and from all account be very accurate as well. The only thing I find funny is your statement that they are identical except for the barrel. Thats like saying two cars are the exact same except one has a supercharged 8 and the other is a 4 cylinder. Its only the engine. the engine in a gun is the barrel. The barrel is probably the most important part in a gun and is really what separates most of the ARs out there. Especially when it comes to performance. I just found it funny thats all. You are correct though. He can get an RRA now. Enjoy shooting it, learn a lot and then late,r if he chooses, pick up a KT barrel. This especially makes sense if he isn't reloading as the RRA shoots all ammo including SSA Combat. The difference really shows up with hand loading. This is leaving out the CL but agian that is easily lived with. The only other thing that doesn't apply here is supporting those who supported the 6.8 from the get go. But thats only if you could afford either. In this case I would say RRA is a good option if you can't afford the KT. Tim |
See I actually did use my brain... And have owned more than a few Rock River's ...got some now in fact... But the two barrels are not the same....and buyers remorse does sometimes set in... You have got to get yourself one of KTs light wts ...it is not the same as the Rock River..trust me on this... Never said KT is the ONLY way..did I?.... But you really owe it to yourself to try when...maybe then you'll see :) Chrome Lined -1 in 12 twist- light weight- Sorry If I stepped on any toes... I didn't mean to...... |
I know KT's barrels are supeior to RRA's. All I said was that if you are tight on money. And you want a 6.8 now, and you still want the option to upgrade to the best when you have more money in the future. You can. And it wont cost anymore. You wont have to sell your RRA upper. All you need to do is buy the barrel. As stated above, you can buy a complete rra upper, and a KT barrel for the SAME PRICE as buying a COMPLETE KT upper. So lets say your young. And only have 439 dollars. And you want a 6.8. You buy a RRA complete upper. Quality upper, with a good barrel. (Not the best, but good.) Later on you when you want to upgrade the barrel. You don't have to sell your rra. and buy a KT's upper. All you need to do is buy the KT's barrel. And it will cost the same if you do the above. Or buy a KT's complete upper right away. The rra route, just allows for someone who does not have the money right away to get a 6.8 spc sooner. Both routes are good routes. Both routes, in the end, will give you a upper that has the best barrel. Thats all I was saying.
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| Well, to try and settle this dispute, I am going to piece the entire thing together myself. The entire price including the ko-tonics barrel (with the generous offer from 9divdoc, btw I hope you got my email) ends up at arround 510 dollars including shipping. So this way I'm under budget, and I get the ko-tonics barrel first. Plus its only like 70 more than the RRA upper. I figure this is the best route for me. And the cheapest at the moment, because I am not financially able to drop 450 on something I dont really need (well actually yes I do, but try convincing that to my parentshave |
If you want a brake get the MSTN/PRI break if you want a FS you have a few options. Do some searches and check out the 6.8 shot out in the Uppers forum as they had a few different types used. With the MSTN break it was amazing how little muzzle movement I had. I could call my shoots. Tim Sprag_Clutch, I agreed with you and knew what you were trying to say. Just the way I pictured what you were saying, it was funny. I pictured this guy with a bright shiny perfect barrel on his rifle. Then this other guy with the same gun but with a rusty barrel, twisted like a pretzel, standing their saying "but they only difference is the barrel. What's wrong!?!" Your point though was correct and I agree with it. I was just having some fun at your expense is all. It was very late and I do get punchy in the wee hours   Tim |
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I'm going to be as nice as I can. I've got Merlot in me. 1) Ko-tonics upper and bolt. I don't give a rat's ass if you go 16", 18" or 20". Go Ko-tonics and you won't need that other da-da-damn rifle for the 250yd shots. 2) Use carrier and parts of your choice or go Bravo Company. If you don't do anything close to this you will be sorry later on for a number of reasons. Dave S BTW, did I mention Ko-tonics? Now, go do the right da-da-damn thing. BTWII, if you go 20"... you'ld be considered brilliant by other brilliant people that reload for max. velocity and accuracy... while not dry-humping that not needed second rifle. |
 And DaveS, those 20" IonBond barrels with their "chrome-lined goodness" sure look pretty sitting on my shelf. Do you want me to just send them to you so you can use them as tomato stakes this spring? 
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I will very soon have NINE off-the-shelf muzzle options from which to choose:
- Tim |
No, Tim doesn't ply me with the red stuff. I buy it for my heart since I'm now a legal cantancerous old fart {50}. Parkers Estate is my favorite. Yepper, I drink this guy's kewl-Aid: 
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Sometimes it takes a little merlot to get the straight facts. And college IS fun. Just more work than I thought it would be... But I digress. I think i'm gonna get that money order done this weekend, I'll send an email. I'll also keep you guys posted with my progress. If I have any questions/problems y'all will be the first to know. Thanks for bein' awesome, folks. |
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