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Posted: 12/28/2007 9:49:37 PM EDT
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Unfortunately I was unable to get a definitive answer thus far so I will ask it here. Can an M-16 bolt carrier be interchanged on an Armalite or Bushmaster AR-10? The reason i ask is because I can acquire military components for a VERY reasonable price and yet i want to build an AR-10/308 variant to hunt with. I simply loved my rifle in the military and want one in my personal collection but the 223 doesn't pack the stopping power I truly want. So... does any one know for certain? |
No. Two different sizes. |
Another reason NO is from what I understand you can't use a part that is used in a full auto. This constitutes a machine gun. I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will chime in. |
The bolt carrier is one of many parts that may be needed to make a gun full auto. The carrier in and of itself does not make a full auto gun. Some manufacturer's are shipping brand new ar15's with FA carriers. |
Educate yourself 
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Ok so most feel it's not illegal to use a m16 carrier in a AR15. But, most cops are trained to look for certain things. How well did they pay attention? There is no doubt some of them think it is illegal and will haul your ass to jail. Just because they aren't sure or KNOW wrongly it is illegal. In the end you'll fight it and probably win but, Do you want to get hauled in to start with? Then if the DA agrees with the cop you go to court, hire an attorney bla bla bla. My feeling is I don't want to take the chance or miss a day of shooting because some cop thinks it is illegal and wants to make the big felony bust. Why do I think this way? My first wife was arrested for DUI because she had a insulin reaction and was in the cell for 3 hours before someone noticed the medical braclet(story too long). I was taken in for a class 2 misdemeanor(stolen plates on a vehicle) because the guy punched in the wrong tag number! Then he wouldn't listen because he knew he was right. |
 The vast majority of cops would have NO CLUE how to even spot an m16 carrier. I doubt very many have any training at all in identifying machine guns; the ones that can spot it are most likely 'gun guys.' If they think they have a machine gun, I think it's common practice to have the ATF evaluate it. The ATF determines whether it fires more than one shot with a single movement of the trigger. If it does, it's a machine gun. If it doesn't, it's not a machine gun. I understand your paranoia, and I won't try to talk you out of being extra vigilant. |
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ATF's policy is any lawyer's interpretation. Now I expect they would have a hard time winning in court if you have a couple FA parts in your gun but do you really want to spend that much on a defense attorney to find out? Back to the original question. No. AR-15 Bolts and bolt carriers will not fit in an AR-10. The AR10 bolt and bolt carrier are much larger than the M16/AR15 parts. If you want to build a hunting gun that uses MOSTLY AR components, build a 6.8 SPC. A 6.8 only needs a different barrel, bolt, flashider, and magazine. Everything else is the same as an AR-15/M16. And they are plenty capable of taking down medium to big game at reasonable ranges (about 300 yds or less) with good ammo. Take a look at the www.ko-tonics.com webpage to see some of the critters killed with a 6.8 SPC. Coyotes, Feral Hogs, Whitetails, Mulies, Cow Elk, and Caribou. The round is plenty capable of killing big game if you do your part, even out of a 16 inch barrel. -David Edgewood, NM |
Sounds like you have a gung-ho LEO problem in CO. I have been pulled over three (3) times for not having a front license plate. Two (2) of which the tag was present. One cop almost caused a wreck doing a u-turn on a 55mph road. I seriously doubt that they could see an extra 1 inch of material on a bolt carrier if they can't see a 6"x12" plate on the front of my vehicle. Unless they were a gun enthusiast. |
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Here's some stuff right of the ATF website: Included within the definition of machinegun is any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun. This portion of the machinegun definition addresses what are commonly referred to as conversion kits. The “any part designed and intended solely and exclusively” language refers to a part that was produced for no other reason than to convert a weapon into a machinegun. Illustrated below are examples of such parts. The “combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun” language refers to a group of parts designed and intended to be used in converting a weapon into a machinegun. A typical example is those M2 carbine parts that are only used to permit fully automatic fire in a US Carbine M1 or M2. M2 Carbine The above parts consisting of an M2 selector lever, selector lever spring, disconnector lever assembly, M2 disconnector, disconnector spring, disconnector plunger and M2 hammer are classified as a machinegun. These parts are used specifically for fully automatic fire and have no application in a semiautomatic carbine. While other parts such as an M2 sear, operating slide, trigger housing and stock are used in the fully automatic carbine, these parts are also appropriate for use in semiautomatic M1 carbines.16 Therefore, the M2 sear, operating slide, trigger housing and stock are not a combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun. Other commonly encountered conversion kits include modified trigger housings and or trigger paks for Heckler & Koch (HK) type semiautomatic firearms. As originally manufactured, semiautomatic HK firearms (HK, 41, 43, 91, 93 and SP89) were specifically designed such that they will not accept fully automatic trigger housings or trigger paks for HK selective fire weapons such as the G3 and MP5. If selective fire trigger paks or trigger housings are modified so that they will function with semiautomatic HK firearms, the modified components are classified as parts designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun. These modified parts are also machineguns as defined. In order to avoid violations of the NFA, M16, hammers, triggers, disconnectors, selectors and bolt carriers must not be used in assembly of AR-15 type semiautomatic rifles, unless the M16 parts have been modified to AR-15 Model SP1 configuration. Any AR-15 type rifles which have been assembled with M16 internal components should have those parts removed and replaced with AR-15 Model SP1 type parts which are available commercially. The M16 components also may be modified to AR-15 Model SP1 configuration. Now I'm not calling anyone names, not saying anyone is dumb or stupid or a troll, but to me that means an M16 carrier constitutes a machinegun according to the ATF. |
The idea isn't if it can fire full auto. The idea is the ATF says no parts like that in a semi auto are legal. Of course we know swapping out your semi carrier for a M16 carrier isn't going to make it go full auto. Can you roll a joint out of a marijuana seed and smoke it? NO...but if you have one seed in your car on a drug bust, you're in trouble. Maybe the ATF sees it the same way with any M16 parts. |
BATFEDEA? That's a mouthful. Drugs and guns don't mix. Even when making up the rules. The law is very, very, very clear - 1 trigger function = 1 shot fired = semi auto 1 trigger function > 1 shot fired = full auto The batfe has some ambiguous rulings that contradict this very clear law (and others). And supposedly they have been able to get guns to malfunction with certain FA FCG parts and they ruled that they were then illegal full autos. I guess if they have a squib round malfunction that gets stuck in the barrel and then fire another that blows the gun up then they could also get you for a destructive device.  Remember - people were persecuted (and worse) for going against the rule that the earth was flat. Most of us know the outcome of that one. In these modern times - follow the law. Rules are not enforceable without the law behind them. Yes, it may cost some money to prove it due to some overzealous LEO's. If there could be a doubt, keep a copy of the specific law available should you ever be questioned by any LEO's. |
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Well I agree the BATF is screwed up, but tell you what. Give me your names and addresses, put a M16 part in your AR15, like a carrier for example, and I'll call the BATF in your district telling them and let's see what they do to you....ok? Oh..no huh? I thought so. Hey, anyone want to be a guinea pig? Nothing to fear...one part doesn't constitutes a machine gun. You can't beat them, just like we aren't going to beat them when they push gun control to the limit. This election year coming up is a big big big one for gun owners. |
Colt is shipping it's guns from the factory with FA carriers. FA carriers do not make FA guns. That is a FACT. Do you think they (Colt) are going to ship a "FA" gun (without the proper paperwork) for sale to a regular Joe and risk losing everything if it were illegal? A semi auto carrier could be made to work in a FA gun if the auto sear were reconfigured. If I buy a barrel, FSB, handguard, delta ring, etc., etc., that is surplus from a FA gun does that make my gun a FA. I don't think so either and neither does a M16 carrier. Please read the laws. I am already on the BATFE database. ETA - here is a link to a 20 page (and counting) thread on M16 bolt carriers in ar15's http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=6&t=147440 |
| The BATF says it doesn't matter if the FA part will make the gun FA or not, they don't want any of the FA parts in the gun. There are parts on the gun that we are discussing that HAVE to be changed to make it FA. The parts you mentioned to make your point was silly. Those parts are the same on both FA and SA rifles. |
What you don't seem to realize is that the ATF constantly contradicts itself, and it regularly makes statements that are completely false when it comes to the law. You need to read the letter that the ATF sent to Colt Mfg regarding this; in it they make it clear that so long as the part combination doesn't make a machine gun, you are not in possession of a machine gun. |
Sounds like you already have your mind made up and don't wish to evaluate information with an open mind. We have shown you where the correct information is and a 20 page thread which beat this dead horse already. One closing thought....have you ever heard of anyone being prosecuted for having a FA bolt carrier in their semi auto AR15?? Me either  |
No, I haven't made my mind up and I am willing to evaluate information. With me you won't nobody will turn this into a pissing match or name calling....which we have not done so far. Thing I'm trying to get across is the ATF is the Evil Empire..they can damn well do as they please. You can't beat city hall. Yes, they do contradict themselves a lot..way too lot. Far as have I heard of anyone that had been arrested for a FA carrier in their rifle...No. I'm under the understanding that the ATF goes for the bigger fish in the pond. I'm curious as to why current Colt AR15's would have FA carriers in them? First I'd have to see one to believe it as I don't know anyone that has a very current AR from Colt since they took this new sales stance of theirs. If true, is it to use up FA carrier inventory? Is the gas system tweated some to make up for a lighter carrier or at least the buffer and spring? I have a pre-ban HBAR and I had to put a carrier weight in mine because it's over gassed like many Colt to insure reliable functioning at the expense of beating the brass up. |
What information do you have to prove this? Have you worked with both or is this a presumtion?
You are not properly educated. To constitute a machine gun it MUST FIRE IN FULL AUTO. You can have all parts to make an AR-15 into a full auto and just be missing the auto-sear and it IS NOT ILLEGAL. Now to save hassle most people are advised against having ANY M-16 parts in their firearms due to the fact that ATF, Police and Fish & Game enforcement ignorance. Not to say they don't know how to do their jobs but some aren't entirely up to par on their own laws. Let alone national or state laws. A good way to prevent issues is to carry a valid copy of the law and/or lawbook with your firearms. It may rub the law enforcement wrong but with a copy of the law in front of them they will have to confirm it before they take you to jail. Not to mention that ALL M-16 parts are available and unregulated with the exception of the auto-sear and the burst ratchet assembly. Correct me if i am wrong with any point I have just made but do so with writing. Otherwise your proof against me is weak and unreliable. Now back to the previous topic. Shrikefan... What information or hands on experience do you have to suggest the bolt carriers are different? |
I may be mistaken, but I do not believe the normal autosear is restricted either since you have to drill the receiver to install it, and drilling the receiver is creating a new MG. I've seen plenty of M16 parts kits at gunshows, and seen the sears in the bins w/ the other parts. |
I'm sure he meant the auto sear that is part of the package of parts to make an M16 work full auto. There is another auto sear that's called a drop in auto sear that converts an AR15 to full auto. Now that type of auto sear has to be registered as a machine gun. I don't even know if any of them are for sell anymore. When they first appeared they were really pretty cheap. You bought it, plus pay for the license, and you were on the way to convert your AR15. |
That's exactly what the 93? "red book" says(the last one I had with my FFL)- not 1 m16 part can be installed in a AR15. I know it will not make it fire full auto but that WAS their definition of a machine gun then. |
You are not properly educated. To constitute a machine gun it MUST FIRE IN FULL AUTO. You can have all parts to make an AR-15 into a full auto and just be missing the auto-sear and it IS NOT ILLEGAL. Now to save hassle most people are advised against having ANY M-16 parts in their firearms due to the fact that ATF, Police and Fish & Game enforcement ignorance. Not to say they don't know how to do their jobs but some aren't entirely up to par on their own laws. Let alone national or state laws. A good way to prevent issues is to carry a valid copy of the law and/or lawbook with your firearms. It may rub the law enforcement wrong but with a copy of the law in front of them they will have to confirm it before they take you to jail. Not to mention that ALL M-16 parts are available and unregulated with the exception of the auto-sear and the burst ratchet assembly. Correct me if i am wrong with any point I have just made but do so with writing. Otherwise your proof against me is weak and unreliable. Now back to the previous topic. Shrikefan... What information or hands on experience do you have to suggest the bolt carriers are different? What year BATF regulation book are you pulling your info from? the last year I had my FFL was 93, then the "red book" definition of a machinegun was any one single m16 part was considered a MG. |
constructor Give it up, these guys are the "experts" (that's ten percent X and ninety percent spurt). I pulled what I posted from the ATF website on machineguns couple days ago. I don't care what anyone says...nor do I care whether the ATF is right or wrong or wacky....if they and their book of laws says you can't have one M16 full auto part (pay attention boys, were's not talking about the stock, the barrel, the flash hider, sights, etc...weren't talking about the parts directly responsible for making the M16 full auto) that's good enough for me. I live in a small southern town and let me tell you, whether you're right or wrong with whatever the sheriffs department down here arrests you with, your ass is going to jail. There's been arrestees bodies found in the remote parts of our surrounding mountains. You put two and two together. |
Link from the archive w/ ATF letter regarding M16 carriers Info on Maryland AR15 Shooters Site re: M16 carriers According to one post Colt has been using FA carriers in their rifles since 2005 I don't see where there should be any disagreement here. I've seen a few of the Colt rifles. They had FA carriers. Colt is not going to be stupid enough to ship unregistered "machineguns" to civilians. |
That's interesting stuff. I want to point out something about the letter though. I DID say you could put M16 parts into an AR15, BUT it also said such part must be made into an AR15 or SP1 part. To me that would mean grind that extra section of a M16 carrier out to make it into an AR15 carrier. They also advised again putting any of the parts in there. It's all very contradicting and confusing. I appreciate those sites and items. |
First of all I understand a letter doesn't have any meaning if you're not the person it's written to. Second, if you read between the lines the letter essentially says "We don't recommend installing any FA parts in a M16" on the first page. On the 2nd page it says "But, if it doesn't fire full auto it is legal to run FA parts in a semi gun." That having been said, I don't see *HOW* a FA carrier alone can make a semi fire full auto. I would not possess a FA LPK w/ one, but the carrier alone seems safe. The safe answer is don't install any FA parts. The legal answer seems to be you are safe if the rifle won't fire full auto. The practical answer seems to be you're ok w/ the FA carrier alone, but stay away from the M16 LPK. The FA carrier weighs more & helps w/ shorties. |
thats where you should have stopped
Its funny- all the so called "experts" and I doubt anyone of you own a NFA item. JFA you for one still don't know what your talking about. "license" "dead bodies", please go play somewhere else. Too bad you don't know shit about our govt either- ATF doesn't make "laws". Take your bullshit gunshop stories and go home. You only muddy the waters for new guys because you are not smart enough to observe the facts. Oh and BTW if your PD/sherrif arrest you "right or wrong" you know thats illegal right? Go back and read your BS its mind boggling "arrestees bodies found"  What are you 12? I guess all the new colt owners are going to jail now Thanks for the laughs
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I was always under the impression any M16 part in the BATF eyes constitues a machine gun. granted, how often are your weapons checked and even more so, how often are they checked for a M16 carrier vs. a ar15 carrier. only real difference is the additional weight from the shape of the carrier to trip the auto sear. In my mind, I will keep the ar15 parts in the ar15 and the m16 parts in the m16. Most of the parts are interchangeable, but when the BATF starts making definitions about this part and that, I will leave it the way i bought it. I saw one person had a couple things from the BATF website or similar. take a look at the site and determine for yourself. |
you're fucking kidding right? look at the guns. the 308 is longer/ bigger for the bigger round. 
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www.atf.gov/firearms/nfa/nfa_handbook/chapter2.pdf check this link out and look at PAGE 15. This is from the BATF website and explains that the combination of M16 parts makes a AR15 considered full auto. So, I guess you must have all the parts for them to consider it a full auto and this means you should be able to get a M16 carrier in a Ar15 legally. thats the way i read it at least. But, if you have the combination or parts in your possesion even if they aren't in the AR15, it will still be considered a machine gun and therefor, you are royally screwed. |
Taylor, have you ever had a FFL? The laws may have been changed or clarified since 93 but, I had AR15s on the wall. I had m16 parts (except the sear) for sale in the bin behind the counter. They had never been together, I dont have any use for a full auto anything. They were confiscated and I was charged and did go to court over it. I didn't like spending that much time or money for nothing, you don't get the money you spend on an attorney back wheather the the charge was right or wrong. You guys do what ever you want to, I know what I'll continue to do. |
where do you live at? are you the texas chainsaw massacre guy??? what you do mean bodies of arrestees found? were they eaten or something?? I think you are blowing smoke and I must submit 
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look at my link and you will see. the parts together even if not inside the rifle constitue a machine gun. I am not arguing with you in any way, just trying to show others that the parts in the eyes of the BATF constitue a machine gun. I see the pro-side of installing the M16 carrier and I doubt the cops would even know or you would be targeted, but in the end, it seems like they can screw you either way. I know colt is supplying M-16 carriers in their new AR15 rifles without the machine gun paperwork. But I think the carrier is as far as it can go. If you start adding other parts, or even have them laying around in your house, and the ATF gets wind and checks up on it, you could be screwed. |
What does a FFL have to do with being protected from NFA laws? No shit, you had a parts kit which = constructive intent. , not a BCG!!!! We are talking about a BCG. They are now shipped in semi rifles. Did you get picked up for that? If you had said you got picked up for having just a M-16 BCG might have meant something to this conversation. You're comparing different parts and trying to get the same answer
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If I remember correctly he lives in East Tennessee close to the N. Carolina border, where growing smoke and making shine is still a business. Alot of things happened there back in the 70s. Crooked cops were the norm and if you trespassed on the wrong property you dissapear. Yes I lived there for a while and know a sheriff that went to prison for selling, personally. If you have a FFL you follow the book to the letter. If you're a non class 3 dealer you can't have parts and a rifle even if they come with a kit and you use new AR15 parts to build a rifle and throw the 16 parts in a box to sell. I've had my ass bit once and it won't happen again. EDIT - you can buy M16 kits with everything but the sear straight from M1 parts today, that doesn't make it legal |
Constructor got it right, that's where I live. He's right about the local industry here too. Constructor was right about the trespassing thing too....that is if you're lucky....I've been warned to watch where I venture in the mountains because I won't be charged with trespassing...they'll be picking my booby trapped claymore mine blown body parts off the bushes and trees. |
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http://www.bushmaster.com/catalog_parts_lower_receivers_p3.asp#8448505S Go to Bushmasters sight I gave there on their M16 carriers and read what it says you have to have in order to buy one. Also read it says that "NO" M16 parts are legal in Kalifornia. So why does Bushmaster say you can't legally put them in an AR15 and why are so reluctant to sell them to just anyone? Protect their asses? From what? A lot of you said it's perfectly legal to put a M16 carrier in your AR15. |
So BM's selling policy is now law? You quote a companys policy and use that to back up your claims?Okay since you want to play games, how about the other 99% of the industry that does sell them. Explain that with your twisted logic. 
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I agree. I'll stick with my 15 carriers they work just fine in the 11 uppers I have. |
I'm not playing games and no I don't use that to back up my statements. I used that to ask the question of why Bushmaster took that stand. Would you say because what the ATF says is so confusing and contradicting that they didn't want to get into any trouble? I haven't checked all the other dealers to see what their stand is on selecting M16 carriers. Someone mentioned you could go to a gunshow and see vendors that had all the full auto parts for sale. Yeah, I use to see that too......years ago....I haven't see it recently at any shows I've been too. Who's to say if I do see it at a show and I try to purchase a part and the dealer/vendor asks from my Tax stamp or FFL? Where you located...North United States? har har har |
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Here is the law as passed by congress not rules made up by some government appointees: TITLE 26 - INTERNAL REVENUE CODE Subtitle E - Alcohol, Tobacco, and Certain Other Excise Taxes CHAPTER 53 - MACHINE GUNS, DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AND CERTAIN OTHER FIREARMS Subchapter B - General Provisions and Exemptions PART I - GENERAL PROVISIONS -HEAD- Sec. 5845. Definitions -STATUTE- For the purpose of this chapter - (b) Machinegun The term "machinegun" means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person. This is the LAW you would be charged with breaking if you were ever indicted for violating this LAW. All the rules do is to clarify some of the gaps or vagaries in the law. The law is supposed to supersede any rules that are contradictory. Whether or not the law is taken into consideration by the arresting officer, states attorney, or grand jury is on a case by case basis. However, the judge/well informed jury is held to a higher standard in that they are expected to hear ALL the facts that would pertain to the above case. This is how they are supposed to reach a decision of guilt or innocence. So, if the gun is full auto OR if a person has a significant number of the parts available to make a gun full auto then they could be charged with having an unregistered MG or by constructive intent. Some of the constructive intent stuff doesn't pass the sniff test with me because that IS a very gray area. That is why I stay away from the very gray area issues. As for the availability of full auto parts, I have seen them at local gun shows within the last 6 months. I asked a well known class 3 dealer and manufacturer (title 2?) and he said there were no nfa or legal issues with buying the m16 fcg's except for the constructive intent side. Needless to say I did NOT buy any because this area is too gray for my liking. As for constructor's issues - I don't know all the facts. I do know that if my livelihood was at the whims and desires of a government department such as the BATFE then I would be inclined to follow their rules and procedures - right, wrong or indifferent. Back to the OP question: The AR10 bolt carrier is approx. 7-7/8" long and fits in a bore 1.192" in diameter. The M16 bolt carrier is approx. 6-3/4" long and fits in a bore 1" in diameter. To use these bolt carriers interchangeably would possibly violate the laws of physics. |
Thank you... that was the information I was looking for. |
You are quite welcome TeknoMaeg. I enjoy this community to educate when I can and to learn as much as I can. I do enjoy a civilized debate as this thread turned out. Especially when I am right.  Thank you JFA, constructor and all other posters for your experience and input. Happy New Year!! Shrikefan |
Yeah the AR15 forum is one heck of a good place to learn stuff. We didn't even get the moderators to yell at us so we done good. |
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