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Posted: 12/11/2007 9:16:46 AM EDT
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Does anyone have any experience with the 25/223 or 25x45 round in an AR15? I know that 6x45 gives slightly higher velocities then 223 with the same bullet weight and was wondering if that continued with the quarterbore. I know COL will probably be an issue here. The main use would be deer hunting and plinking, since I don't varmint hunt at this time 25 makes more sense to me then 6mm if it will work. I am aware of 25 WSSM and 6.8/6.5 rounds but I like the idea of staying with the standard AR bolt, magazines and .223 brass. I guess I would also be willing to look at a 6.5/223 wildcat. I have already put out "feelers" on the Quarterbore.net forums but haven't gotten an answer there. Thanks in advance. |
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You should contact Mike at Dedicated Technologies as he offers the 25/223 or 25x45mm chambering. Here is a link to the different chambers he can do. Chambers Mike's Email : [email protected] |
I first saw this caliber on his website actually! I have posted a message for him on the oa2.org forums where he posts but he hasn't answered yet. I'm going to email him after posting this, I was just hoping to find some feedback from users. Thanks! |
gdblair, Just to clarify, are you looking at a 25/243 or a 243/222? If the former I would think that is similar to the 25 Souper which by all accounts is a great round. Maybe I'll build one on that extra Yugo Mauser action I have... Mike at Dedicated Technologies did get back to me very quickly and said that he personally hasn't played with the 25/223 but thinks there might be some COL issues with the heavier bullets. I am still looking around for folks with experience with the 25/223 in an AR15 but I am leaning toward my original choice of 6x45. |
| I should have said 6mm/222 I guess.With a shorter neck you would have way more options with your bullets than the 6x45.It is a bit of a compromise but you don't lose alot because you get more efficient combustion in the cartridge and more efficient bullets going down range.You could say it is a hybrid between a whisper round(all bullet) and your full length x45(all case). |
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personaly, i would stick with the 6x45 if you were thinking that way anyways. the brass is more acssesable, and the dies are alos readaly availible. i say go 6x45, and dont look back. theres more bullet chioces as well. BUT... if you realy want the 25x45, and you dont mind spending a little extra cash, i say go for it. if you do, let us know ow it turns out. |
I am really leaning toward 6x45 right now but a guy on another board apparently has a 25x45 and is going to send me some dummy rounds with different bullet weights. He says his works great but doesn't have access to a chrono, he says he has used 75 grain bullets (not sure which ones) just fine on deer from his AR. Depending on the bullet choices that fit in a AR mag I may rethink the 25x45. I would need to be able to load some of the 85-87 grain deer bullets to feel comfortable with this choice. Worse case scenario is I have a unique upper or I swap the barrel out for a 6x45 barrel down the road. The idea of a 25/222 (25 Copperhead?) is tempting but I would like to be able to use 223 brass in this project. |
| i thi nk that the 25x45 should work wonders on deer. i just dont thin kthat there is a big fallowing on 25 caliber cartridges. just like the 8 mm. theres nothing wrong with them, they just dont get the hype that the others do. i also thin that 75 grn bullets will get the job done on deer. as long as your not trying to drop one at 300 yards away. some guys use the 6mm 80 grn bullets for deer with there 6x45's. i dont think that 5 grns is going ot make any differenace. especially since the technology of bullet macking is so much more better now. you dont have to have a sledgehammer to pound one to the ground. i would look into nosler ballistic tips. they were created for deer hunting. |
| My big concern is finding 75 grain bullets designed for deer and not varmints, there are a lot more 85 and 87 grain 25 caliber bullets set up for deer. I don't see them being discontinued but the lighter ones set up for deer may get harder to find as less and less people shoot the quarterbores. |
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well, have you thought of doing a 25/221? case is a little smaller, so you could stuff the bigger bullet in it. would give you enough room for 100 or 115 grn bullets. and the 300/221 gets 125 grn to 2100 fps. i think that you could get the 87 grn bullts going pretty fast with that 221 cartridge. then you could load the 115 also, for more force when needed. i think that you could getthis cartridge to perform pretty fast. i dont have a ballistics program, but maybe someone here does, and could run the numbers. what do you think? |
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There is no problem using 223 0r 556 for making 222 or 25 copperhead. If you do an image search on .25/222 you'll see a beautiful picture on hunter's life 3rd from right.Just to the left of it is a 25 ppc if you want to extend a line across to see what it looks like with a shorter neck.With the short neck you could easily handle 75 up to 115 grs. |
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do you really want this in an AR, because if not, why bother with the 25/223? the 250 savage has killed probably a million deer, it works pretty well. if you want something for the AR, might as well just go with the 6.8 spc for a standard round. wildcat cartridges are highly overrated nowadays. mostly. |
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| Get you a 25/222 chamber cut and do the neck & throat separate so you can cut them short .If you don't like the bullet selection you can always cut it longer.If you dont like the 222 then you can cut it to 223.For the short neck 25/222 cut the 223 brass down form it in your 25/222 dies then trim the neck down and ream.You've got plenty of time till the next season. |
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Using the standard 25-222 dimensions with the exception altering neck length to .270" and trimming cases to 1.635" that will handle 95% of .257" bullets loaded to standard magazine length. This combo was some potential. I'll be back in the morning with some quickload numbers. David |
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Thanks for all the feedback so far! I found a fellow with an AR in 25/223 that is supposed to be sending me some dummy rounds and I am now researching the 25 Copperhead, it sounds like the way to go with a quarterbore. I am looking at deer hunting in VA and NC so BC isn't that important. I wonder if I might as well go with a 300 Whisper for this. I would keep the standard bolt, magazines, could use .223 brass, and with 150 gr bullets still get plenty of velocity for the 150 to 200 yard shots I would be looking at. Heck most will be under 100 yard shots. Keep the feedback up and I'll keep you posted as I progress after the holidays! |
.25/222 Copperhead done in 1969 by John Wootters. He got ~2450 fps using a Speer 100gr Spitzer bullet with a Sako rifle w/ a 18.375" barrel. Should be good out to 150 yards or so on light deer. |
Only in your daydreams... 100 grainers going 2300 is pretty realistic from a 14.5" barrel. I doubt you would get to 2400 from an 18" barrel. Even so, that gives you a 150 yard combination for light deer. With 85-87 grain bullets you could extend that to 200 yards. The more I look at this, the more I see a carbine for my little girl. David |
I was looking at it from the standpoint that the bullet wouldn't be seated any deeper even after i trimmed the neck back and an Ackley improved chamber might get me another 100-150 fps over Wooten's 2450fps.No? |
A .223 AI gives you roughly 5%-7% more case capacity than the regular .223 Remington. This will translate into roughly 50 fps difference, depending upon the bullet and powder combo. Some will be higher, some will be lower. Most 'Wildcat' velocity claims are hooey, because they are not pressure tested correctly, if at all. The thing that all of the AI's cases do best is lower the need to trim brass. Remember, that you are limited to the AR magazine. Custom bolt actions are not. The 1.700" case length of the .222 would work better than the 1.760" length of the .223, when necking up to accept .257" bullets. Still, if 2500 fps +/- out of a 20" barrel AR with a 100 gr bullet does not excite you, don't know what will. This will work on small deer out to 225 yards or so. If you want more oomph for a .25 cal bullet, consider doing a Wildcat based on the 6.8 SPC cartridge case. This case has almost a 20% increase in case capacity over the .223 Remington and should get you the velocity you seek. |
It wasn't so much the velocity by itself.I just got done checking various bullet weights at 2400 fps and was quite pleased.I was worried about energy between 100-200 yds aswell as trajectory.I was wanting to maintain 1000ft/#'s out to 200 yds and I saw some combos that even at 2400fps did so.With a 200 yard zero most were about 2.5" high at 100.I'm quite comfortable with that.I'm a bit of an amateur here and you guys are helping me catch up. |
KE is nothing more then an equation that is easily understood by people. It is not the end all to be all of effectiveness on game. As long as your impact velocity with the 100 gr bullet of your choice (Sierra, Speer, Hornady) is >2000fps you should be fine on smallish deer (say 120 to 150 lbs). I would not try any 'Texas Heart Shots' or 'Raking Shots' past 150 yards, but you should be fine. John Wootters designed his 'Wildcat' round because he like the versatility it gave him. He could use cast lead bullets and shoot a .25 WCF, for squirrels and the like, light jacketed bullets, to mimic the .256 Winchester, for foxes, et al, and 87 and 100 gr loads for animals in the 80 to 120 lb range. I do not think that you will be loading lead bullets in your AR and, in all honesty, while I LOVE .25 and .26 caliber rounds, you would be better, and more cheaply, served if you just got an upper in 6.8 SPC. The 0.020" difference in bullet diameter and 15 grain difference in bullet weight do not mean a whole lot. Just a thought. |
I agree with all the above, but I'm still looking at a simliar cartridge for my little girls carbine. I'd still be able to run a short barrel without the high muzzle pressure and concusion unlike the 6.8 SPC. David |
| If I can start at 2400 fps or so with good deer bullets (85 grains+) then I will be happy. I like the idea of having enough punch out to 200 yards but I see this as a 100 yards or under woods rifle, I have a 7mm Weatherby Magnum for long range hunting. The advantage of a 223 based case is that I have over 100 AR magazines and I don't want to have to buy 6.8 magazines just for this project. I also like the idea of using the same bolts (makes repair parts cheaper) and cheap 223 brass. The brass cost isn't that big a deal for a hunting rifle so a 222 based round would be OK as long as it still feeds out of the magazines. |
Then try the 6mm-222 with a 85gr Nosler Partition or 85gr. Barnes TSX bullet with a lightweight 22" barrel. You can get over 2,900 fps with the 85gr bullets and over 3,000 with the 70gr Speer TNT's. Given the magazine well constraints of the AR, there really is not a dime's bit of difference between the 6mm-222 and the 6mm-223. |
| Well, I did an unscientific thing and did a ballistic comparison between an 80gr 6/223 and a 125gr 300 whisper.The 6mm was at 2800 fps and the 300 2150 fps.Given that the case capacity and shoulder height for the 222 is right in the middle of these two I deducted that a .25 of 100 gr in a 222 should do 2475 fps.Just a different perspective. |
yeah, and none of those are wildcats. except maybe the 300/221. |
what do you mean?!? most of these all started as wildcats? the .264 -08 was used in comp. way before remington decided to make it into the .260 rem factory round. same as the 7mm-08. (formaly the .284-08, with a different neck degree.) the 204 was used by varmniters for 20 years or so before ruger made a rifle chambered for it. the 338-08 has been around for half a decade. federal just now brang it out into factory life. same as the 338 a-square, along with the 8mm-06 was used in replacement barrels on mausers brought back by military personel. 458 socom was made by marty, and the 50 beowulf by alex arms. also with the 6.5 grendal. all these are wildcats in the begining. starting with an already know brass case and a pair of custom made expanding dies. so, i dont know what you are hinting at, but all these were wildcats. i was mearly showig how wildcats are at the forefront of the ammo industry. look at the new hornady creedmoore. think that hasent been a round chambered in an f-class rifle before honrady made it???? |
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