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Posted: 9/17/2007 11:01:33 AM EDT
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I'm a hunter attracted to the reliability, accuracy, customability, and overall performance of an AR platform. (I know little to nothing about the AR world other than what I've learned in the last few days.) I'm attracted to the Ruger Mini-14 in the new 6.8mm(Although this is the smallest caliber I would consider for whitetail). I own a Ruger Deerfield 44Mag (Which is quite successful at ~100 yds). The 6.8mm would give me better range and allow me to upgrade it more easilly. ultimak.com/ From what I read, the Ruger Mini falls far short of a True AR for an equiv price. I've looked into the Bushemaster M4gery as was suggested and it doesnt quite fit my needs. I'm hoping some of the experts here can give me some suggestions. My Needs
The Ruger mini meets pretty much all of those needs with mods, but I would prefer to find somthing a bit more robust. Any Ideas? |
Thanks for the suggestion, these are pretty heavy guns. 8.5 lbs for the Bushmaster (9.5 with loaded magazine) I need somthing lighter/faster. |
| I'd suggest contacting the manufacturers of those three I mentioned and see if you can get a barrel kit in your choice of length and build yourself a lighter carbine with one of the carbine stocks. Although the 5.56, 7.62x39, and 6.8 will kill whitetail deer, I don't consider them in the what I call the "middle zone" for hunting deer. I consider them in the too light zone. I know this is going to bring flak especially from the 6.8 folks, but so be it. That' s just what I happen to think. Sometimes there are instances where you shot wasn't perfect and the aforementioned calibers aren't forgiving in my opinion. From what you have described of your needs I'd say a Model 94 Winchester carbine in 30-30 would do just great...and they are light. They are lighter then the comparable Marlins. |
I agree....but its been tough finding anything larger caliber in a light-weight semi auto. My 44 Mag does very well but only at close range <100 yds. The Winchester 30-30 is a fantasic gun and one that does very closely fit my needs....but I despise Lever action. I've tried to go that route before and I think I'm going to hold on to the Idea that I can find the perfect semi-automatic :) I own a 30-06 that I've taken most of my deer with and its a little overkill. Many times I've seen it blow straight through without mushrooming.....especially at close range. Its also a heavy full length gun that I am trying to shelve for bigger game at longer ranges. |
| Check out Ko-Tonics, and get yourself the 6.8, that Tim is soon to release in a ultra light model. If a 6.8 can't effectively kill a deer, then how can a ,223 or a .243 and a host of others? It is shot placement that counts nearly all the time, isn't it? Miss place a shot on any fairly good sized animal and they won't usually walk away, they will run. |
I really like the ko-Tonics. I'm waiting to hear back what the weight is on their 16". The northern whitetail is easilly 200 lbs and I've seen them go a LONG ways with pretty solid hits, even grazed hearts, 1 lung, or 2 legs!. Its not about if you can kill somthing with a smaller caliber, its about how reliably(Humanely). I've seen strong bucks in Cold weather(They seem to go a lot farther in cold weather) take 4 hits to the rib cage and not break stride. Thats with a 30-06. Its not usual but it isnt all that uncommon either. Sorry for the side-track. 6.8 has enough Energy at 200 yards to do the damage, but only just. www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_ballistics_table.htm |
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I was looking at the specs on that 6.8 Ruger. It weighs 6 7/8 pounds. Round that off to 7. DPMS makes a 16 in barrel 308 and the weight is listed at 8.5 lbs for both the rifle buttstock and the collapseable carbine buttstock. Hell of a lot more power for 1.5 lbs more. Who knows, maybe DPMS might make you a lighter barrel profile and eliminate the flash hider. That would cut the weight some. These were flat tops by the way. They also make a 243 and 260 but the smaller bores would add weight to shape barrel profiles. The Ruger comes with a five round magazine...are there higher capacity magazines. The DPMS does have higher capacity magazines if that is a concern of yours. I did a stretch in central southeaster Ohio and most the deer I shot there went over 200 lbs, averaging close to 250. I miss those deer too. In a southern state now and our local deer don't go much over 100 pounds. |
| DPMS won't do custom machining on there barrels other than what they list as offerings, they order them out of house machined. Get the A3 uppered 18" or 20", and then send the upper to AR15barrels.com, to have the barrel cut down to 16" and have the diameter turned down to a medium weight and you should meet your weight goal, and at least get the mid-length gas system, and have the better upper, as the A3 is actually lighter also i think. |
Given your criteria, I would stay away from the 458 SOCOM, or 50 Beo due to the weight, I own 2 458 SOCOM rifles, and unless im hog hunting or bear hunting, I dont drag them around the field due to the sheer weight, granted they ARE A BATTLE AXE and awesome, I would say look to an AR in 6.8 SPC or 6.5 G. Personally, I like the 6.8 SPC, and many on this site and others have used it for whitetail, hog, etc. Silver State Armory has a nice 110 gr sierra pro hunter and a barnes X load which in my mind is the best hunting bullet out there. Look at the RRA 6.8 SPC coming out soon as well... If you want to go for a top notch rig, seek out Tim from www.ko-tonics.com A dealer on this site who makes the most accurate 6.8 Rifles hands down. He may come along and post some hunting photos but heres a link to 6.8 SPC animal kills. www.68forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=74 Post away if you have more questions. If your hunting whitetail in Tx, the 6.8 is just fine, if you hunt where I hunt, which from your location is the mid west... well, I know the size of deer you chase, and Id seek a heavy hitter as well. Personally I use a 300 WBY mag for the whitetail and mulies I chase, If I wanted to hunt them with an AR in 6.8 however, I would go with the 6.8 SPC SSA 110 grain Pro Hunter load. Just hold out for a good shot, if not pass. |
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Tredge, If you are a hondloader/reloader, check out the 300-221 fireball a.k.a. 300 Whisper. The 300-221 fireball a.k.a. 300 Whisper round is a wildcat based on a necked up 221 fireball. Ballistically, the 300 Whisper is very similar to the 30-30 and the 7.62x39, both of which have a reputation for being good brush guns. Brass can also be made by resizing and trimming 223 brass. There are several advantages of going with the 300 Whisper... One being there are a lot more bullet weight choices than the 6.8. It shoots .308 cal bullets from a 16 in. barrel with the following performance: 110 gr bullet at 2300 to 2400 fps 125 gr bullet at 2100 to 2200 fps 150 gr bullet at 1900 to 2000 fps 165-168 gr bullets at 1850 to 1950 fps 175-180 gr bullet at 1750 to 1850 fps 190 gr bullet at 1650 to 1750 fps 200 gr bullet at 1500 to 1600 fps 220 gr bullet at 1400 to 1500 fps 240 gr bullet at 1300 to 1400 fps. The best bullets for deer size game are the 125 to 180 gr bullets. The 300 Whisper is also a great hog killer. Lastly, It also functions very well with sub-sonic loads as well. So, if you live in a state where you can legally have a sliencer... well you an just imagine all of the fun you could have :) The round can be had in Thompson-Center Arms, bolt guns and in the AR-15 platform. In the AR platform it has the advantage over all of the other variants in that it uses an unmodified bolt (face) and carrier (No debates about broken bolts etc...). In addition you can use unmodified magazines.... that is a 30 round mag holds 30 rounds of 300 Whisper. I have built three of these in the AR15 platform. Two have the gas port in the pistol position and can shoot both sub-sonic and and supper-sonic loads and they all run flawlessly. The third one that I built has the gas port in the carbine position and it shoots the super-sonic load a bit more efficently than the two with the pistol position gas port. Does the 300 whisper shoot as flat as the 6.8 or 6.5? NO! But it shoots flat enough to make good hits out to 200 to 250 yrds. and 300 yrds. if you know your rifle and practice a bit. Besides most people can not hit shit much beyond 300 yrds. consistently on the first shot any way. If you Google 300-221 fireball and/or 300 Whisper you will find plenty of information. 320pf |
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My brother killed 4 or 5 deer with a 7.62x39. It's plenty, even for Wisconsin whitetails. The 7x57 put a bigger thump on them, but they all died regardless of the rifle they were shot with. I would get a 6.8. Flat top, no sights, A1 stock or collapsible, 16" barrel (mine is an ABS carbon fiber wrapped barrel). PRI free float tube... |
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I have a 50Beo with an Eotech and it weighs in at about 7# or so. I have carried it for two years in northern Maine with no problem. I still hunt only, just sitting for a bit in good spots. The AR carries surprisingly well, especially if you have a straight mag (.223 20rdr) sticking out the magwell. I modified my 7rd AA mags to hold 5rds last night actually! The 50Beo certainly is super deadly out to 200yds on anything I can think of. I am not really saying you should get a 50Beo, but these big bores are great! Don't worry about the pistol grip being in the way. I have been through some NASTY shit up north with no issues!! Also, if you like rails, build a 223 upper with rails. You don't want all that crap catching on branches and such! Also, do not use a Badger Tac-latch, as it will catch on yer belt loops and snap all day long. Really annoying and noisy! Use standard charhing handle. You only charge it once in the morning anyways. No need for the fancy latch. Also, the carbon ff tube is nice and light and sleek. Good for woods and better than COLD aluminum!! Hell, the aluminum ff tube that used to be on my 6.5G was could in the summer! If you want a wood ff tube, let me know and I can hook you up. [email protected] Good luck! |
Nothing humane or clean about taking shots on game while they are on the run, at least not from where I come from. I lived in Ohio most my young adult life and Ohio is slug country, and where deer grow to a decent size. I've been lucky to be able to hunt in several different states that allow rifle use. And it's always been shot placement that counts whether using shotguns or rifles. If you want a lightweight AR to hunt with your selection of bullet size is somewhat restricted. I have no problem finding 6.8 ammo, then you always have the 6.5 grendel with ammo a little more diffcult to find. From here is a good question if Curlymaple say's his 50Beo. is 7lbs+/- I would tend to believe him and with that round you are looking at ballistics simiular to a 45-70. Nothing wrong with a 50 cal. type of entry wound. Great thing about it, it's your choice. Good Luck We are talking a Brush Gun right, so typical shots should be 50-100yds. Please let us help, by you defining your typical shooting distance in the brush. For every caliber is not suited for every need or circumstance. |
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This is not exactly what you spec'd but it would fit and is one heck of a deal. ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=120&t=469598 If you have multiple ARs a 6.8 is a very handy option. In my opinion, if you are only going to have one, have it in a common caliber. Iron sights can be fast and reliable with plenty of shooting and practice. You could do a gooseneck mount out front with a red dot or eotech. .308 can be picked up everywhere. I buy some Federal 150 grain soft points for $10.50 per box and my AR10 feeds them very well and averages 1.5" MOA. As to the pistol grip issue, I don't generally have issues when crawling through the brush. To be honest, I don't crawl in the brush anymore and we have plenty of thick stuff here in AL. You can always kill them with less but damn I hate tracking in the dark. Just my humble opinion. |
| Olyarms makes a bunch of caliber options. I can't speak for/of them because I've not fired one but others here might be able to. You can see what they have on-line by doing a web search. You might have a problem finding one in the weight that you want. To me, what your looking for you already have in the 30-30. Great brush gun, light, fast, multi rounds, ammo is availible anywhere and reliable. They are supposed to be even better by way of range and accuracy with the new Leverevolution ammuntion. If your looking for a bit more by way of caliber, why not another lever in 45/70? |
That's a good point. Before I got my 50Beo I was hunting with my 1895GS .45-70. I can load it hot and it groups great out to 200yds (Minute of Deer). AND, if you want a rail for mounting a light or laser, Wild West Guns makes a mount that goes up front on the mag tube! Plus you can get scout rails for mounting an Eotech too. The Eotech on the 1895GS is pretty kickass. Also Wild West Guns makes a big loop lever to give your hand a bit more room with gloves. This is way off AR15 base here, but an 1895GS is and would be a great gun for you! If you really want Semi-auto and a big bore for sub 200yds, go with a .50Beo or 458Suckom (I mean Socom, sorry Cold  ).(PS: That last jab at the 458S was in no way to insult the caliber, just goofing with Cold is all) |
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Can you build a sub 6 lb AR with Rails - Yes. Perhaps with Kotonics new ultralight 6.8 barrel and using a Daniel Defense 9.0 M4Rail (their lightest). The trick will be in finding an optic that is light enough to meet your weight goal, generally not an inexpensive option. I've been into the 'lightweight' think for a while and have built a sub 6b AR My suggestions: 1) Use a Cav-Arms polymere lower for a good weight reduction 2) go flattop 3) skip the buis. 4) use a low profile gas block. 5) Skip a muzzle device - Ko-Tonics sells a nice thread protector that is very light weight. That will give you a carbine about 5.4lbs with 2 Magpul XTrail covers but NO optic. There are several sub 0.6 lb optic/mount combos available depending on your optics budget. Pistol grip in the brush - not a problem US soldiers have been using them for 40 years, and other countries even longer with FALs. It's not an issue. |
And that's it, right there. Especially that last part (at least for me). The last several times I've gone [deer] hunting, it was with a .223 bolt gun. I didn't take $&*# because I didn't have a perfect shot. This is just me, though, but because I'm not a really big hunter, it wasn't all that important for me to come home with anything. I really just enjoy being out there in the field. To take nothing away from the "blind" guys, I prefer the OP's hunt/stalk method. I usually do hunt/stalk/wait, though. Hunt, stalk, nothing? OK, fine, lemme find a good natural blind where I can lay up for ~ 15 to 30 min. You'll obviously need a bigger caliber than .223 for the deer, etc, in your AO. You only mention deer/whitetail in your post, but I'm not sure if that's the only game you're after, so it's hard for me to give a caliber recommendation based on anything but that (so I'll refrain until you clarify). That said, it's the weight that's going to be your biggest problem (once you've established your choice of caliber). In project mgt, we have a constraint matrix (which is different from project to project). Resources, time, scope. One will be most-limiting, another least-limiting, and the remaining one, only moderately-limiting. That's kind of what you're doing here, except you're using caliber (most-limiting) and then weight (moderately- or secondarily-limiting). To be perfectly honest, you can probably lump all of your other "needs" into the third slot (pistol grip, overall cost of project, ammo cost, etc), because your first two requirements are so constraining, you'll be really lucky to meet all of the rest. |
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This will be a whitetail and smaller gun. I have an 30-06 for bigger game. I've been using Chuck Hawks charts: www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_ballistics_table.htm This is an excellent read on TKO values of calibers and the wounding effect or overall stopping power. www.chuckhawks.com/energy_transfer.htm His point is that Velocity, weight, size, and kinetic energy alone say nothing about a weapons killing/wounding value. No Idea what this concludes about 6.8mm :) I dont intend to start a debate. |
I see Mr Hawks doesn't mind plagiarising Dr Facklers work. I didn't see any credits to Dr Fackler for the diagrams... |
I didn't click the link(s), but honestly..... that was the first thing I was wondering. |
Thanks for the clarification, though. What's the largest size whitetails you'll be going after? ETA: e.g. will you be hunting solely in WI; do you hunt out of state (if so, where).... |
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That's right that velocity and bullet weight really don't tell all about a cartridges effectiveness on bringing deer down. I know the old cartridges that anchored deer very well are 30-30, 32 Win Special, 300 Savage, 30-40 Krag, 30-06, 35 Remington, 270, 7x57 Mauser, 8x57 Mauser, 303 British, 7.62x54R Russian. These are the ones that nailed them. Probably more deer have been killed with the 30-30 and 35 Remington then anything. Oh there have been some hunters that used the 257 Roberts, 250-3000 Savage, 25 Remington, 30 Remington. Then along come some of the new rounds like 243, 6mm Rem, and 25-06. Back even further in time many deer where killed with the 44-40 and even the 25-20, but you didn't see those used much after the 30-30 and 35 Remington came about because they definitely on the anemic side. That is just about where I put the 6.8 Rem, just above anemic for deer. If I had to choose between a 30-30 and the 6.8, it would be the 30-30 hands down, even over my 6.5 Grendel I own. Have I ever owned a 30-30? NO, but almost all my friend have and I've seen their performance. My deer rifle is a 7mm-08 and a 30-06. I feel for small southern deer, the 06 is way overkill. |
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Get a Grendel with a 16" bbl and a nice red dot. Since you are brush hunting and not shooting long distances you can get away with 16"bbl chrome lined. Tag Elder swamps huh? BTW the AR15 does not snag on the brush like you think it would. use a 120 grain BT or a 129 grain bullet. 6.5mm will do as good as any caliber, it is the lightweight alternative to .270win. Might not move as fast, but it retains lots of energy/velocity. You should be GTG for up to 400yds with my recomendation. Check 65grendel.com for uppers on the mall.(same as EE) |
| Although the ruger mini 14 does function well, they are not very accurate as they come from the factory. Having experience with many mini 14's as an instuctor at a facility that used them in 5.56/223 as thier primary weapon they did not shoot with any accuracy. The worst was the 7.62 x39 SS Ranch that I bought for my own use. After trying many different cures I finally sold it as 3" groups at 50yds with a 2X7 burris was not what I wanted. The department finally went to the AR-15 in 2006. |
Thank god for small miracles, I cannot fathom why any dept would choose a mini14 for duty, unless that dept was run by retard. They should have chosen a remington 7600 over the Mini14, way more accurate and powerful at that if not using 5.56mm (that model was stupid) Hey a mini might look cool, and work, but don't count on hitting anything small or distant. |
| Although I don't care for the Mini 14's and think the AR's out shoot them, Ruger has made some improvements and even has an enhanced accuracy model out with heavier barrel and all and I've heard that they don't shoot all too bad. I can't imagine a Mini 30 shooting 3 in groups at 50 yards with a scope even. Hell an Ak47 does better then that. I think something was seriously wrong with the rifle or ammo. Personally I've not seen many rifles that couldn't beat that including old WWI and WWII rifles from many countries. I have a scoped Yugo SKS that I have worked on that will shoot a Lee 155 gr cast bullet into 5/8 in at 100 yards. Like I've said I've done a lot of work on it and took lots of different load testing. |
You may not believe me, I tried 8 different hand loads plus chinese & russian stuff When going fro 125grian bullet to a 130 the group would move verticaly 3 to 4" The barrel on that Ruger was very thin for a .30 cal barrel. That 2 X 7 burris is now mounted on my Rem 11-87 deer shotgun and shoots 2" groups at 100 yards with sabot slugs. |
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MGI has everyting except a mag to build a 35 Remington AR15. When I win the lottery, I'll build a mag from scratch & have a 35 remington AR15. For your purposes I'd recommend a Winchester model 100 Carbine in 308. I used to have 1. Until then I'll stick with my antiquated Marlin 336 in 35 Remington for brush. M9 PS The rails you all love are far worse than the pistol grip about hanging in brush. |
I believe you alright. I've seen some pretty crappy rifles come out of Ruger, mainly back a long time ago. Sounds like the 223 barrel has lots more meat on it. I once told my best friend way back in the early late 80's I'd give him $2000 to put into his Mini 14 and my Colt preban HBAR would still out shoot it. Good thing he didn't take it to one of the well known smiths, might have beat me. I lucked out with my Colt, I got a really good shooting one. Back closer to topic. I have a 260 Rem, using 140 grs Rem bullets, I've shot some deer and wasn't all to impressed with it as compared to my 7mm-08 shooting 139 gr Hornadys. Shot many deer with that 7mm-08 nary lost a one nor tracked any....they all went down right there and never recovered a bullet either. I had my 260 Rem keep a bullet in a small doe once. Many with 120 grains the 260 might have impressed me more. I'd seen deer anchored better with the 243. |
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Dam this forum and all its man porn...... The more I look the more I love(Lust). I find myself actually prefering the pistol grip now...especially after handling one and I'm having a lot of fun working the perfect gun together :) Thanks for all the great responses. No decision yet but I'm leaning toward a sub 6lb 6.8mm if I can figure out the weights on things. I dont reload and I figure that will be easier to find....although its future is still a bit dicey. |
Shit you are the only one I have seen mention that rifle, not the best thing since sliced bread, but pretty damned good though. My friends Dad has one he purchased for 100 dollars. We put a good scope and rings on it did a trigger job and thorough cleaning, wood glued the crack in the stock and it is GTG, he dropped five deer with it two seasons ago. That made him very happy. The original owner had a weaver on it, with the rings mashed hard against the turret bell.  
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Been hunting tag alder swamps of Central WI most of my life..bow hunting and gun hunting After hunting in RVN for a yr..and being down in the swamps there...I learned to appreciate the 'Brush gun' concept.. After getting out of service in 1970 I got my self a civilian AR and hunted the swamps that...not a great experience until more soft nose ammo was available... There are a few different kinds of gun deer hunting in Central and N Central Wi swamps...now a days a tree stand is the best bet...after doing lots of pre season scouting...any short barrel rifle loaded with good deer killing ammo would work fine...as long as you've practiced with it...from your tree stand...(or a stand of the same height) But if you insist on an AR platform I would vote for the 6.8 SPC built by Ko Tonics...16" Lt Wt barrel..(as soon as they come out that is)....i would add a DD light forearm and a low power scope..something with illumination would not hurt. Certainly a reticle that could be seen in low light (heavy duplex for example)...as in WI deer hunting the sun sets early comes up late stays low in the sky...:) In the old days back in those swamps the 30-30 lever action was king...after WWII the 30-06 had a good following These days...the .243 270 308 and 3006 are the most likely rounds to be found in the local gas station/deer registration station/grocery store. I know you said you dont want to hunt over bait...but frankly with a woods full of hunters stalking on opening weekend probably would not be the best choice...the deer are frantic..and on the run..woods full of people smell and they head for the swamps if they are full of water and no ice...tough to get them out of there without a party of drivers helping out. Its always good to hunt over food or the travel areas (runways) to and from food and their bedding areas..staking out alfalfa,corn,hay fields,oak stands or apple orchards...another trick is to get in early and let the hunters moving into their stands drive the deer towards yours... As far as brush busting rounds go....heavy and slow rules....12 g slugs 444 marlin type stuff...probably in an AR the 458 SOCOM and 50 Beowulf..... Personally I would give the 6.8 SPC a shot...hopefully will get one this year in time for the wife or nephew to use I'll likely stick to my 20" 308 med wt barrel and low power scope (got nearly 60 yr old eyes to consider) IMO |
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