AR Sponsor
Posted: 2/27/2007 1:37:35 AM EDT
| http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sC0f5wvgGew |
|
I saw the magazine ad, looks like a cool cartridge. hornady.com/story.php?s=543 |
|
Hey Tony, …I don’t know about “Conveniently”, but I myself, listened to a conversation between Jeff Cooper (the Gunners Guru, RIP), Rich Davis (then owner of Second Chance Body Armor), and LeGendre (the creator of Big Bore AR’s), wherein Cooper did absolutely declare, what has now become the 450 Bushmaster (then the 45 Professional), to be the long sought after “Thumper”…in his words. I hope I don’t hear sour grapes in your words, because it doesn’t matter that the Big Dogs have come off the porch and are scooping up the AR Big Bore Market, because you still have much to be proud of and you should not diminish that in the least. Now, news flash…I own a 45 Pro. Pulling bullets from 460S&W ammo, which are 200gr Hornady SST’s, loading them, in the 45 Pro, to the same OAL as the 450 Bushmaster, which duplicates the 450 performance exactly. I have with the very first loading achieved, 2750fps…What the speeds become with more exhaustive developments, who knows, yet. But fact, not fiction, using one gallon milk jugs (lined up), filled with water, as LeGendre suggested, I think that load is the perfect Police load. Over penetration, being the evil of Police work, this loading, when compared to the 9mm Hydro-Shock, was 3 to 4 times less penetrative. Now step up to the 250gr SST for Deer, Bear, Moose(which the 250 SST is already famous for), and the 300gr SST for bigger critters and Bingo, that Pointy, Higher BC Bullet Profile, becomes truly an all around equal opportunity Killer, in the extreme…no holds barred…no excuses, period! |
|
Did I read correctly on the Bushmaster website that it requires a cartridge specific magazine? If so, that's going to be a major strike against it in that the other big-bores use standard mags. Is there anything the .450 Bushmaster does that the .458 SOCOM and .50 Beowulf do not? Edit: 'Cause I can't type. |
| That's a typo...it uses Standard GI mags. The parent cartridge case is the 284 Winchester and as Hornady already makes the 6.5-284, that conversion was proably a snap for them. And something else that needs to be said...With the two Giants, Bushmaster and Hornady teaming up for this process, you can bet that their examples will in fact be, World Class and the best since Tim LeGendre and LeMAG created the Big Bore Concept, those many years ago... |
That is a contradictory statement. Anyone know where ballistic info is on this round? ETA: Video just says 250gr bullet at over 2000fps. Looking for more specifics. |
| i think it uses a specific follower to aid in ss feeding that lowers the capacity, this may be the only actual improvement over a .458/.50. i was under the understanding that with the twist rate of the .450, you are limited to bullets 250gr and less. with the oal of the .223 being the limiting factor, i dont see any benefit unless you wanted to shoot lighter/cheaper bullets. it would be nice to have velocity/energy/drop charts side by side for the .450 bushmaster, .458 socom, .499 lw. and .50 beowulf. i got the aa published one, and im sure you .458 guys got one, but thats it. |
|
Timinator, Yes, I am sour about the big bore AR market. I won't deny that. I spent a lot of time and money promoting it from 1998 - 2005, but I finally had to give up on it due to lack of sales. Now, the wonder boys step in with the big money and steel the show......yes, I'm bitter about it. But that's OK, I have orders stacked to the roof on my Saiga's....just gotta keep the big guys away from that market. It will only be time before I am pushed out again and have to come up with something else. Thankfully , I have no shortage of ideas................. Tony |
"Why, no sir, this isn't a 30 round magazine! It's a 10 round magazine for my 450 Bushmaster. I know I can't have any magazine over 10 rounds in (insert "ban state" name here)." |
|
Tony, I’m sorry to hear from you, about the death of your 458 SOCOM and indeed I have a friend inside Rock River and it looks like it might be dead there as well, or soon to be and he says (rumor) they are predicting the same for the 50 Beowulf. It’s not that the Big-Bore Market is dead; in fact the opposite is closer to the truth. Mostly it seems, because ever since the Majors have announced their intensions about the 450 Bushmaster and gotten into the fray, everybody is waiting for Bushmaster and Hornady to do their thing. I talked to LeGendre the other day, at LeMAG HQ and he is turning more work away for the 450 Bushmaster/45 Pro-, than he has ever seen. And he has been building these things since the early 80’s. He’s referring all those customers to Bushmaster and did quit building them, so as to be out of Bushmaster’s way, when production starts, which should be any minute now. And let’s face it, the other important reason for the demise of the 458 and 50 AR’s could be the Outrageous Performance of the 450 Bushmaster, which is nothing short of fantastic, if I am to judge Bushmaster/Hornady’s future results (which we don’t know exactly just yet) in context, using my 45 Pro as a base line. Remember, the only difference between the pro and bushmaster, is that the 450 Bushmaster is a little shorter than the 45 Pro (I can simulate everything Hornady is doing by just seating “Their” bullets to the 2.250”OAL, in my 45 Pro cases). The 450 Bushmaster case is a little shorter than the 45 Pro, to allow for those long pointy SST bullets to strut their stuff, which have tremendous remaining down range energy, because of that much higher Ballistic Coefficient (gosh, I've been testing those SST's and they are great, gotta go to the black powder rack to buy them, but...). With 230gr .451” Ball Bullets at well more than 3000fps (yeah I know, but it’s true, and we 45 Pro Drivers do get those speeds and Col. Cooper confirmed it in many of his written articles. He was a great fan of LeMAG’s and the 45 Pro and visited LeGendre at his home often. Cooper had one built for himself and inscribed it "Thumper", I saw it.). In other words, the 450 Bushmaster will set all the standards and in the years ahead, will continue to break new ground as it goes forward and all this will be for the betterment of the Shooting Community… These are probably the best root cause reasons behind your sagging sales and although good for us, bad for you personally and Beowulf (the .499 is already all but gone and in trouble from the beginning), if you want to look at it that way…don’t. I say…That which does not kill you, makes you stronger, right, so show us what you are made of and buck up buck-a-roo, damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead, make us proud and you seem to be on that track already and I can’t wait for the new things that will come out of your shop… |
|
so what kind of energy and drop will the .450 produce, with the 230gr fmj and 250gr sst? out to 200yds. it sounds like hype to me, until some #s are produced that show it has what it takes to outperform a .458/.50. many hunt large moose and grizzly with these platforms, and i dont think the lighter bullets will outperform the 400-420gr. especially with bullets with better bullet coeffecients being introduced. |
|
If I could figure out how to do the little animation, I would be raising the BS flag right now. TIMinator...you have no source at RRA for a nonsense rumor that .458 is dead with us, as it most assuredly is not. With orders in hand and production commencing as early as next week (we're doing inventory for the rest of this week), it's far from dead. Steve/RRA |
|
I guess I just don't get the 450 Bushmaster. Pointy or no, a 350 gr. bullet in a 458 SOCOM with 1:18", for me, is a much better balanced, more generally useful hunting cartridge. I'm also no fan of the 1:14" 458 SOCOM. It can't push 500 gr slugs fast enough to justify compromizing performance with the more useful 300 to 400gr peojectiles unless for a silenced application at VERY close range. What rifling pitch is RRA using? If it's 1:18" I'd say they've got a winner. |
Fixed it for you. |
So who do you work for, Bushmaster or Hornady? 
|
|
Steve, Its good to hear that all is alive and well with your 458, there is no need to be so touchy, as I did clearly state that my intel was rumor and we all know not to trust rumors. Can you clear something up Tony said…Quote.. “Now, the wonder boys step in with the big money and steel the show......yes, I'm bitter about it.”..end Quote.. Are you guys contracted up with Tony or is your 458 a Knock-Off of his invention, leaving him out in the cold, as he seems to be suggesting? |
Timinator you said "Tony, I’m sorry to hear from you, about the death of your 458 SOCOM and indeed I have a friend inside Rock River and it looks like it might be dead there as well, or soon to be and he says (rumor) they are predicting the same for the 50 Beowulf. It’s not that the Big-Bore Market is dead; in fact the opposite is closer to the truth. Mostly it seems, because ever since the Majors have announced their intensions about the 450 Bushmaster and gotten into the fray, everybody is waiting for Bushmaster and Hornady to do their thing. " Now come on, your even saying rumors in your post, in a court of law, IF I SAID I HEARD A RUMOR THAT THE 50 Beo was being predicted to be dying I WOULD BE LAUGHED OUT OF THE COURTHOUSE, you MUST be kidding me with that statement as a form of support for your argument here...come on, wake up. You use vague statements like "they are predicting" well whos they, put up or shut up. I dont speak for everyone here, but I bet as a collective whole, we can agree that were sick of fly by night posters who make vauge statements bashing one thing while they hit home runs for another. You know what, Im going to step up here for the whole big bore community on this board, who has had to debunk, defuse, and disperese all these clowns who come out of nowhere, and create havoic. First off, RRA didnt leave Tony out in the cold, if you actually knew what you were talking about with the 458 SOCOM (which you dont, hence why some of wish you would stop posting already) you would know that it wasnt Tony's cartridge, but that it is infact Marty's of Teppo Jutsu LLC. Tony stated he made his own decision in 2005 to leave the big bore market, RRA didnt announce a 458 SOCOM until Feb 2006 at the Shot Show.... some peoples reading comprehension. logic and deduction never ceases to amaze me.... Secondly, I have friends in the 50 Beo community, several of which were at Shot just last montn in Orlando, AA and the 50 Beo is alive and well, again contrary to your rather vague statements in aforementioned posts. We need some of the heavy hitters for the 50 Beo crowd to come in here and dispell some of the 50 Beo statements as I cannot speak for them (CurleyMaple42, have at this clown, drag Lars in here too) , but I can speak for the 458 SOCOM. While at Shot this Jan in Orlando, I spoke with several of my sponsors, one of which is Hornady. Now, once I stepped into their booth, I of course saw the nice video playing and saw the 45 Bush. I spoke to my sponsor asked about the 45 Bush and he said that he wasnt a lead on the project, Mitch was and introduced me to him. I spoke to Mitch for about 45 minutes discussing the round, his toughts and what have you. I then went back over to my points of contact at Hornady (both in the Law Enf section as well as the general section), I asked him his thoughts now of the 45 Bush to which he states,and I kid you not, "This is off the record, Id rather have a 458 SOCOM or a 50 Beowulf." He then pointed to the RRA booth which was within eye shot of the Hornady booth. Dont believe me, well thats fine, but I know quite a few of the good folks up in Grande Island, Ne... Maybe I can get them to bring out a 45 Bush upper for some side by side tests.... Now, Im not here to bash the 45 Bush, I like Bushy guns in general and still have one. I LOVE hornady ammo (personally Im glad they are loading the 9.3x74r as the other two people loading it are awful pricy. Point is, when a designer at Hornady tells me he would rather have something else all the while he has NO idea Im associated with Big Bore ARs, that tells ME something. Now, I havent seen anything that shows me a huge improvement over the 50 Beo or 458 SOCOM in the 45 Bush, so far merely typed hype, pure and simple. I wont actually judge the round until I get to shoot it, like I have the 499 LW (thanks Motown Steve) and 50 Beo. You stated above Timinator, that the Majors have gotten involved and its caused the "death" of big bores like the 458 SOCOM and soon for the 50 Beo....how do you call AA and RRA less then major...comercial mfg facilites with ads in major publications tends to lean toward the contrary. Until I see the 45 Bush ammo and uppers for sale at say Cabelas like the 50 Beo....I think the 45 Bush is the one flailing right now I make no bones about being a 458 SOCOM supporter (cheerleader) whatever youd like to call me as you say you support the 45 Pro (of which we see neither hide nor hair of on here by the way....), however when someone starts posting some of the things that you have (misinformation lets call it) about both the 50 Beo and 458 SOCOM in this nitch of the boards....you tend to get some people pissed off... |
Thank you Cold! Timinator, yes, you did step into a lion's den on this one. We have all had much history being attacked by people who go nuts about a certain caliber and make wacked claims and such. We are dealing with one at this time over on .50B.com actually. We took the most offense at it because there was some serious flaws in the information and comparisons made, and plus, we would not go over to a competing forum and say our caliber came first and is better blah blah blah. I post on .458Socom frequently, but do not say the 50Beowulf is better (even though it is  JK Cold!), and Cold has never come over to .50B and made similar claims. Let's see what comes out of the .45Bushy when it actually comes out. I had never heard of the .45Pro until you said something about it, but it sounds like the .50B/.499 thing all over again, except one of the parties stepped back.Just remember: BIG BORES ARE BETTER!!!!! |
|
TIMinator, We didn't rip-off anyone. The creator of the .458 SOCOM, Marty ter Weeme of Teppo Jutsu, has been involved with us since he was set-up behind us at SHOT 2005 and we have a contract with him for the use of HIS cartridge. He sought us out to bring HIS cartridge mainstream (I already knew of him, and already had one of Tony's uppers at that point and was already convinced of its market potential). He was well aware of our previous interest in a big bore AR as early as 2003, and that we even showed one that we were considering making (not 458 SOCOM, but you know that) at SHOT 2004. Ultimately, we rejected involvement in that project and, after reaffirming our belief in the viability of large bore AR-style rifles for hunting, LE, and other applications, moved forward with the .458 SOCOM. And just to come completely clean as to who I am and what my involvement (both personal and professional) in this discussion is based upon...my name is Steve. I have worked for RRA for almost five years in a number of capacities, and, for lack of a better description, I am currently the RRA Special Projects Coordinator. I've been involved in all aspects of the RRA/.458 project since well before it was formalized. I've shot thousands of rounds through several of the .458s (built by Tony /Tromix, Marty/Teppo Jutsu, and, finally, RRA). I am familiar with a number of other big bore cals also...50Beo, 502 Thunder Sabre, 499 LW, 450 Professional/Bushmaster, ( I have shot the Beo and Professional/BM) etc....and my PERSONAL preferance, whether we were making it or not, is the .458 SOCOM. Steve/RRA (edited to correct my typos) |
Good round right there...Im a big 45-70 fan myself, Marlin or Winchester! |
|
Unless you plan to post a link, or sworn affidavit with your bona fides, please cease the rumor-mongering. No exceptions. I would hate to delete a whole post, or series of posts. However, we will not have a repeat of the HipFiredGun incident. I will not entertain rumors that belittle or incite people like Tony Rumore, Marty ter Weeme, Bill Alexander, or Steve @ Rock River Arms. It's a pretty simple rule, and I suspect that Staff and Senior Staff will not like to see someone doing their best Paul Leitner-Wise imitation. So tread lightly in this forum in this regard. Also, if you are Tim LeGendre, now would be a good time to reveal that information. Thanks! --OverBored |
Timinator, I'll try and be kind here, and assume that perhaps you just found out about the 450, and are just a little excited. You might want to spend a little time boning up on the ballistic coefficients of the various rounds that you are comparing, before making your very broad statements. I'll give you a hint, the .451 300SST is not even in the same class as lets say a 300 grain Barnes X bullet in 458. I love Hornady bullets, and think the SST bullet is a well proven killer. But, you might want to actually look at the numbers. As to your velocity claims, versus the targeted claims by Hornady/Bushmaster, well, it's hard to know where to start. Just because you managed to get 2750 fps with your 45 Pro does not even remotely equate to similar performance form the 450. As the stated 450 velocity claims are considerably less than your reloading efforts (even factoring in 200 grain bullets versus 250 or 300), I can only assume that Hornady and Bushmaster came up with a SAFE working pressure for the 450 that probably bears little to no relationship to your 45 Pro reloading efforts. Do you have any understanding of chamber pressure, bolt face size (case rim size), back thrust and the operational pressure limits of the AR operating system? What Bushmaster and Hornady may produce, a 45 caliber platform for the AR, is reported (by them) to use a 300 grain bullet at over 2000 fps, to be a 250 yard effective weapon. Well, I can get over 2000 fps out of my 20" 458 with a bullet having a better BC. But, if you look at the ballistics of either, you will see that at 250 yards both are pretty "poor". Lots of drop and drift. The 450 has no magical qualities here. I have a pretty good working knowledge of .451 diameter bullets, in reloading for a 460 Rowland and 454 Casull in revolver and rifle, and the same with .458 bullets in my 458 Socom and various 45-70's, and I can assure you that the success or failure (how ever you might want to define that) of the various big bore AR's ain't gonna be about the differences in 451, 458 or 50 caliber bullets, or how fast you can safely drive them. Oh by the way, modern ballistics has actually come quite a ways from lining up water jugs to test for definitive results...... Craig |
|
For those who would like a bit of reading on this Timinator, here ya go, archived and hot linked http://archive.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=121&t=237939 archive.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=121&t=237939 enjoy... |
|
Guess I'm going to have to pony up and become a member to read that link Cold! Thanks for spending more of my money....you are partially responsible for over 1K of winger funds pushing the economy, Wall Street thanks you. This whole thread was just fascinating. Very intelligent and thought out posts and replies from the big bore community minus Marty....guess he was working today. It also explains why my normal nightly reading on 458socomforums was light as all you guys were over here today! Good job all. Tim, a lesson learned is all I would say. Stay enthusiastic but grounded going forward. |
|
For RW and those with out the search ability out of the link above, "Bushmaster's 45 Professional Timinator Member Joined :: April 2005 Post Number :: 1 MI, USA Does anybody have any skuttle-butt on Bushmaster's 45 Professional, yet? Shooting 230gr. bullets at 2800fps++. At this years SHOT SHOW Bushmaster had on display an AR-UPPER in 45 Professional and that they were building it for delivery latter this year. One of the big Ammo Manfuactures is supposed to be building the Ammo. Hope they hurry up! It's about time one of the Majors got involved with the Big-Bore stuff and showed us how its really done and I for one am glad to see its Bushmaster! Posted :: 5/26/2005 2:46:03 AM dewatters Member Joined :: February 2003 Post Number :: 111 IA, USA Quoted: Does anybody have any skuttle-butt on Bushmaster's 45 Professional, yet? Shooting 230gr. bullets at 2800fps++. If it is the same .45 Professional that I'm thinking of, it is the brainchild of Tim LeGendre of LeMAG. This is the same follow responsible for .45 Win Mag and .50 AE conversions for the M1 Carbine. The cartridge is based on a cut-down .284 Winchester case. Posted :: 5/26/2005 1:54:26 PM Last Edited :: 5/26/2005 1:55:29 PM by dewatters SHIVAN Team Member Virile, Vigorous & Potent Joined :: June 2002 Post Number :: 17699 VA, USA Quoted: It's about time one of the Majors got involved with the Big-Bore stuff and showed us how its really done.... Yes, every manufacturer is out to screw you. Plan accordingly. Posted :: 5/26/2005 2:05:09 PM NoPlay Team Member Joined :: November 2001 Post Number :: 120 TX, USA I have the October 2000 issue of Tactical Shooter which has an extensive article about the 45 Professional in an AR platform written by John Taylor. It's a good article, and I probably couldn't do it justice by paraphrasing too much of it here, but it struck me that the chamber pressures seemed pretty darned high, with the ammo they used at the time: To get to 2800 fps, the strain measurements indicated pressures in the 65 Kpsi range. Bolt thrust was pretty high as well, so it looked like high strength steels were going to be needed for both the barrel (and maybe the barrel entension?) and the bolt. Now, it's been over 5 years, and perhaps LeGendre has made some technical leaps within that time, but considering that I can launch a 250gr Barnes-X at around 2100 fps, with a much lower pressure, I'll stick with the 458 SOCOM for a while. It'll be interesting to see how this all works out... it's nice to see another company join the fray. Posted :: 5/26/2005 3:07:42 PM SHIVAN Team Member Virile, Vigorous & Potent Joined :: June 2002 Post Number :: 17719 VA, USA Quoted: Quoted: Does anybody have any skuttle-butt on Bushmaster's 45 Professional, yet? Shooting 230gr. bullets at 2800fps++. If it is the same .45 Professional that I'm thinking of, it is the brainchild of Tim LeGendre of LeMAG. This is the same follow responsible for .45 Win Mag and .50 AE conversions for the M1 Carbine. The cartridge is based on a cut-down .284 Winchester case. Timinator from Michigan = Tim LeGendre from Michigan???? What a coincidence....... Yes, every manufacturer is out to screw you. Plan accordingly. Posted :: 5/28/2005 12:11:00 AM Last Edited :: 5/28/2005 12:15:20 AM by SHIVAN RedFalconBill Member Joined :: March 2005 Post Number :: 10 PA, USA Tim LeGendre is from MI, and the Timinator has MI posted as his location. Hummmm...... Posted :: 5/28/2005 12:26:58 AM" |
|
Ahhhhh.....that reminds me of the Tim LeGendre 50AE M1 Carbine that came in the shop last year. The customer had dumped $2,000+ into it and it would not cycle a single round. I told the customer I was not interested in screwing with that abortion, but he pleaded with me until I finally agreed to rebuild it in 502 Thunder Sabre. He sent it in and after looking at it, there was no way in hell the thing could possibly work the way it was built. There were several mandatory modifications that were required to get it to operate, not to mention the extreme excess headspace issue. When I was through with it, the thing was slinging 502's like greased lightning. I was surprised with the work, coming from a veteran big bore builder from the '80's.......I guess he had a bad day when he built that one.......... Tony |
|
Well I got tired of having my dealer telling me it will be in a month or two every couple of months since early last summer when I ordered a RRA .458 socom so I just cancelled my order about a month and a half ago . I bought RRA entry tactical the week after I ordered the .458 , I REALLY like it so I was disappointed when I cancelled my order for the .458 . But I'm still wanting a big bore AR but still thinking about my options and I have been eying the 450 bushmaster lately but I just may try my hand at a AR build instead. EDIT: Its late and I have a BAD tooth ache , which will be pulled in the a.m. so I'm cranky . 
|
Marty could built you a 458 SOCOM, or check around on the boards both here and on the 458SOCOMforums.com , one comes up for sale rather frequently. |
|
As an aside, I have a couple of questions about the 450 Bushmaster. What is the case length on the 450? There might be a (small) market for pistol ARs in 450 as well if they could be built... there are at least a couple states where handgun hunting is allowed with lots of cartridge restrictions where the 450 might be able to make it under the wire. /hijack |
Thanks Steve, I'm truly glad that RRA is producing .458 SOCOM rifles. I really believe this is the best of the bigbore AR cartridges. There are several downsides to the "if some is good, more must be better and too much is just enough" school of rifling selection. Personally, I'm not willing to compromize performance with the 300 to 400 gr projectiles to be able to stabilize heavy projectiles I would never use. And I'm willing to go the custom route to get 1 in 18". But your entry into the 458 market will make it affordable for a large audience not as picky as me, greatly increasing the number of 458's in circulation. Sooner or later, your actions will pull in more ammo manufacturers. This, in turn, will benefit me. In the mean time, I'll continue to use your excellent 2 stage trigger in all of my AR's |
AR Sponsor