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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 6X45 Reloading Info ? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 9/3/2006 5:11:27 PM EDT
| Anyone here know a source for reloading information for the 6x45? Also, anyone here have experience with this caliber. I'm looking to hunt Pronghorn and Mulies with an AR. I am considering all the options. Since I want to build it myself that narrows my choices. |
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A62Rambler: I think the 6x45mm would work well for pronghorn out to 200 yards or so, but for mule deer something like the 6.8 SPC would be better in my book. The barrels and bolts are available for 6.8 SPC as well as mags from 5 round to 25. The Sierra 5th edition reloading manual has a lot of good data for the 6x45. Their loads are all for mag length C.O.A.L. of 2.260". I prefer powders like H335, H322 and Benchmark and can get 2700 f.p.s. out of my 20" 1 in 8" twist barrel using Sierra 85 grain BTHP GameKing bullets. I have not pushed any of my loads beyond the manual and did not see any signs of high pressure, so stick with listed loads and you should be fine but remember to start low and work up for you rifle. Joe |
| Thanks that's what I was looking for. I have tons of reloading manuals but none had data for this caliber and I couldn't find it online. I'll grab a Sierra 5th ediction. 6.8 would be better because of the heavier bullets. I'm just trying to weigh all the options. I really like the 6.5 MPC from SSK but I want to build it and that is out for now. I've got a year before I'll be able to use it. It's too late to try and throw together an AR for hunting this year. I'll stick with my 270. Next year I hope to take Pronghorn Mulie and Elk with an AR. |
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Rambler, I had Marty at Teppo Jutsu build me a 6x45 exactly for Pronghorn. I have used my 458 Socom in the past, and wanted something with a little more reach. JAR has helped me out, and the Sierra data is sound. I am matching it very well with my 24" barrel. You are going to have some issues with magazine feeding and bullet choices. I have narrowed things down to mostly 85 grainish HP bullets. Most of the poly tipped big game bullets in this class are too long. They really crowd the powder space. Mine really loves the 85 grain Sierra Game king. I have not hit any big game with this bullet, but a direct e-mail from Sierra said they will work. Take that for what it is worth. My barrel is way sub-moa with this bullet. I will deviate a bit from Jar's post about mulies, if you choose the best bullet you can afford. I have read many glowing reports of the Barne's TSX working on deer in .224 and .240 caliber. I have not tweaked a great load with the 85 TSX, but have one that is running about 1-1.25 moa. I am going to use this on antelope in a month or so. I do not have a muley on the agenda this year, but I would have no hesitation to use the 85 TSX, and hold the the shots to reasonable range, and shot placement. Again, this is not on actual game use, yet, but what I have read, and what I have experienced with other Barnes bullets in assorted calibers, on game. I feel thet the 6x45 would be optimal on Pronghorn size game, and lesser, and getting to approach the limits on larger. But, if you spend any time reading and researching what is done with Contenders in similar type cartridges, you can get a pretty good idea what is humanely possible with the 6x45. It is not a 243 Winny, but my 24" barrel is not too far from it, ballistically. Good luck, I'll be in Colorado in October, Craig |
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Sorry I took a few days off from reading the boards and am greeted with some great information. Great to hear about your expericence with the 6x45 BearBait! Let me know how you do shooting Fast Food or speed goats if you prefer. I also though it coincidental that I plan to buy or assemble an upper in 458SOCOM for elk next year. I would hunt with a 223 upper with 60gr Nosler Partitions if it was legal here. Minimum caliber is 23 out here in Wyoming. Hence the reason I'm looking for something a little bigger. I've considered the 6.8 as well but $42 for a magazine just torks me off. It can't cost that much more to make those magazines. $20 I can see because they are not sold in as big a quantity yet but $42...ouch! Oh well keep the info coming. I just did my first two...builds?...More like assemblies of two lowers tonight. If I'd known it was that easy, I'd have been building a long time ago. I could buy uppers for the same as I can build them but now it's all about the fun of assembling them myself. I'm hooked for sure now. |
| The Sierra manual is a great place to start. I wouldn't hesitate to use the 6X45 on pronghorn or mulies. The Sierra gameking or 85 grain Nosler Paretition should work well. At the lower velocities (compared to other 6mm rounds) , the 80 grain Sierra Single Shot Pistol bullet may be a good choice. Using anything much heavier than 85 grains may take up too much powder space, but I'm guessing as I haven't tried heavy bullets in my 6X45. For deer sized game, there are better rounds available in the AR, but the 6X45 will do the job with proper bullet and shot selection. It is easy to load for, brass is cheap and plentiful, and most who have one have found it to be accurate as well. |
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Only1asterisk, Thanks for the data! It looks good. Can anyone tell me velocities out of a 16" barrel versus a 20" barrel? I like the shorter barrels even for hunting. I may have to go with the longer barrel to squeeze out all the velocity I can for hunting if it drops substantially. |
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Rambler, I cannot help with the 16 v. 20 comparison, but with my 24" tube I am at or in excess of the Sierra manual, and other sources for similar weighted bullets. I do not think that I am in dangerous territory, from the data available. The Barnes TSX is a bit tricky to work with, as Barnes says that you need to up the charge to get things back to max, due to the reduced bearing surface. A bit interesting, with no Barnes published data. At least I have 243 Win data to look at. If I get there, then I know I am over the line  Good luck, Craig |
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If you can provide bullet data, I can do some quickload modeling. For each bullet, I would need: Make/Model/Description Actual (measured) weight Ballistic Coefficiant as provided by manufacturer Length Length of boattail (if applicable, does not apply to flatbase bullets) Minor diameter of boattail. (if applicable, does not apply to flatbase bullets) With that, I can give velocity and max load estimations for different barrel lengths. |
I've got a 6x45 on order. Any chance of getting a copy of that PDF? |
 I guess this is for Rambler, and others interested. A single shot from my (Marty's) 6x45 with a 85 grain TSX at slightly less than 100 yards. It was a pretty sharp quartering angle, the bullet entered just left of the left hip, destroyed much of the upper intestines, pulverized the liver, crossed through and took out both lungs, exited the chest cavity, just clipped the back of the right front shoulder, and headed off into space. The antelope ran about 50 yards, at full throttle and dropped over dead. The entrance hole was big enough for some of the intestines to be slightly hanging out, and the exit path was pretty small. Not a bit of ruined meat. Sorry to be so graphiic, but I suspect that some of you might be interested in real world performance. While one shot is hardly statistically significant, I remember thinking very cleary when lining up the shot that I have enough gun and proper bullet for the shot. I am very impressed with the 6x45, and the Barnes bullet. Craig |
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David, Thanks for the tip. I was actually looking at the PPC data last night and saw that the rounds are not that dissimilar in raw numbers. I am doing pretty well with the data that I have, the one anomoly that I have is velocity much higher than it should be for all charge weights, at least when compared to the Sierra test firearm. Theirs is a 24" gun, bolt if I remeber correctly. I am getting more velocity for the same loads, with my 24" AR with a gas system. Quite a bit more. I am only using Lapua brass and BR primers, so I can certainly work safely. The Lapua brass is pretty amazing for consitency and primer fit. If I get over the line at all, it will become apparent. Warrior, I would agree that the 6x45 may not be optimal for large bodied deer, but we have some other variables that must be considered. I have been a very long time member of Handgun Hunter International, and I have been reading and seeing results with Contenders using cartridges of the same diameter, at much less velocity doing acceptable work on even mule deer size game. And, I do not know how much work you have done with Barnes bullets, but they are long for a given caliber, and it is recommended to drop down one weight class for a given combination for species. Their superb performance allows for this, and I have this work, and done it. 24 caliber is the minimum diamter for elk size game here in NM and CO, but I would certainly not consider the 6x45 an elk gun. But, I would consider its possible use on mule deer, understanding the limitations on shot placement and distance. Craig |
I need a better explanation of this statement... I would disagree with it. ALL loading data manuals are based on pressure tested data. They would not publish data that's excessively high pressure. Of course component differences can come into play, but that's why we work-up our loads. Now, just because they don't PUBLISH the pressure data, don't assume that they are not checking the pressures of the loads that are published. If they were not pressure testing, why not just publish loads that go to 80K or 90K? |
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David, And it is even worse, I suspect that the Hodgdon powder listed in the Sierra data does not cover the "Extreme" version of the Hodgdon numbers. Just a guess. I really like Hodgdon powders and data, as they do pressure test, and with the 6x45, I hope that there will be more Hodgdon data on ultra heavy 223 loads, as there ought to be some bit of cross referencing that may help with the 6x45. Same case, same powder, a bit less bullet bearing surface should provide a little insight to powders that might prove to be more optimal. Right now I am working with H335 and BLC2, as these are much more forgiving to case capacity. Even the short cut Hodgdon rifle powders for this application tend to end up with much higher case fill, which really hurts with the longer bullets. Craig |
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Bearbait1 : I saw much the same thing as you, using the Sierra load data in my 20" barrel and 85 grain GameKing bullet velocities were about the same as listed for the 24" barrel in the manual. Looks like you had a great day in the field, and thanks for the feed back on how well the bullet performed. Joe |
Mr. Rausch
I would tend to agree with this, except that it has happened in many manuals and as recently as 2 or 3 years ago. I never said that the Sierra excessively high pressure.
I didn't assume, I called and talked to them. No tests. They worked up the loads looking for pressure signs just like you or I would. David |
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Great info, all of you. This clearly explains why I am seeing such variation from the Sierra numbers. It also explains why all of the Sierra listed powders top out at the same velocity, rather than have a little velocity variation, based on max pressure. I am definately gonna have to revisit the upper end of my load development, and not be so concerned when my numbers are higher than Sierra, with the lack of pressure signs that I was seeing. My numbers were more in line with the Quick Load data that Marty supplied, but still a bit higher. I try not to get too hung up on reaching max loads with big game loads, as the extra little bit of velocity is pretty meaningless, but when trying to connect on pasture poodles, way out there, the little bits of drop and wind drift tend to add up. Thanks again to everyone, Craig |
contact Hodgon I am sure they will be able to help you with the data you need for they extreme powders |
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Colt, Thanks for the tip. I have never contacted Hodgdon directly, but one of these days I will. As to their powders with the 6, I am actually in pretty good shape. It is only the 85 TSX that is giving me fits, as the bullet is very long. The ball powders (non-Extreme) look pretty promising, I just need to do some accuracy tweaking. And, I am not really a pedal to the metal kinda guy with the "wildcat" stuff. Craig |
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Rambler, You really hit the nail on the head about Contenders and "weak" cartridges. I shot them and really studied things for a lot of years. I see all of the "debate" on rifle cartridges and what the experts claim they will not do. Then I think, heck, I can dig out 10 or 20 articles from the HHI publication, that show others are using the same bullet, at lesser speed, and making amazing and ethical harvests. Or one or two of Doc Roger's articles, detailing via autopsy, the effects of bullets and cartridges. Or my results with the puny JDJ cartridges. This is why I tend to stay out of caliber debates. Too many guys do not have a frigging clue. Thanks for the kind words about my antelope hunting. In the area that we hunt, I would say that if you are able, 75% of the hunt is accomplished by putting the antelope to bed the night before. 9 times out of 10, they will be in the same spot in the morning. Plan accordingly, stalk properly, and you do not need to take those really far shots. On this last years hunt, I was out the night before the opener. I found one herd and one lone decent buck in another spot. There were three of us with tags, the other two their first hunt. I sent the father to the herd in the morning. He connected right away. I went out "cold", and found my antelope. Back at the house, with two of us tagged out, the other hunter went after the lone buck, who was still in place. He eventually connected at 125 yards witha 7MM. He didn't need that much gun, but new hunters can get a little caught up in the hype. Three antelope, one with a 300 Win, one with a 7mm mag, and one with my poor old 6x45. Humph. I love to practice long shots, and I love to varmint shoot long ranges. But when it comes to big game, I like to spot, stalk and crawl when necessary to get close. I can pat myself on the back on the 3 or 4 hundred yard varmint connects. I do not need that for big game. Reasonable cartridge, proper bullet, decent hunting techniques, and good shot placement will always prevail over big booming guns. I do love the 6x45. Not because it is a thunder boomer, but because of the fit into my shooting system. 4 calibers in one rifle, suitable for pretty much any critter on this continent, and most others. Craig |
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I think you will start to see more interest in the 6x45mm, as more people reload there own ammo to try to offset the cost of factory 5.56mm. When they get up to speed on reloading the 5.56mm the 6x45mm is really the next easy step up. The trend to shoot heavy for bore .224 diameter bullets in 5.56mm makes the move up to 6mm make even more sense. Other things that come into play like the C Products Stainless Steel mags allowing bullets to be seated out to 2.290" helps make loading for the 90 to 95 grain bullets possible with the right placement of the ogive. All in all this is a darn good cartridge. Joe |
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Randall, You would have been correct last year, but Hornady's new LeveRevolution ammo means that you can now take your Grandad's 30-30 off of the fireplace mantle, and put it back to work again. Plus, you can put that 6-20 scope on it and shoot out to 400 yards. The real funny thing about where we hunt antelope is that the land owner (and close friend) has a nice Nightforce 8-42 scope that lets you spot them a looong way off, and count eyelashes. We have taken a passel of lopes off the property in the last 8 or 9 years, most are right around 100 yards +/-, with my longshot of 175 yards years ago. That was with a 45-70 brush gun with a stubby barrel, that is even more obsolete than the 30-30.Craig |
I was kidding. If you can't get within 100yds of them, you need help on stalking and woodsmanship skills, not a more powerful gun/scope. |
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So to do the 6x45, all you really need is a barrel swap correct? Would this be a relatively easy first build for an upper? I don't think I want to swap out my .223 barrel, but I think building up a 6x45 upper would be fun. I have plenty of 6mm bullets and .223 brass. On the caliber note, the reason I have so many bullets is cause my dadinlaw has a 6mm pump gun, which shoots and carries SWEET! He has taken numerous bucks and 2 black bears with it. Like you said, shot placement. |
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Randall, I 100% knew you were kidding. I guess the winky symbol did not tip you off. I appreciate your cynicism. I think you have it worse than me. If I were any more cynical about some of what I see in print, I could be a standup comic. Of course that would mean medication, and probably the right to not to be able to own guns. I can only imagine some of the phone calls that you must get from folks "needing" you to shoehorn some firebreathing magnum into the AR platform. Craig |
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Cool. That is what I thought, about the barrel thingy. Just so you know, I have a whole bunch of stock D&H 30rd mags and they all work unmodified in my .50Beowulf. Only thing the .458 has is maybe a price break when RRA gets uppers going, and the bullets are a little cheaper, since they use .45-70 bullets. There are other differences that we don't need to get into really, cause it will become a flame war, but big bore AR's are largely semi-custom uppers and reloader's fare at this point. I really like the 6x45 concept. I am going to have to see about getting some parts here and there for my first upper build! I think a longer barrel for more of a target affair is what I will want. Tweak a little more velocity out of it, better accuracy, etc... |
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Curly and Rambler, I have a 24 on mine, heavy countour, with a Vias brake. I was not sure about the extra length, but I do like it. Of course mine is going to double as a varmint barrel, so not a big deal. I am not likely to be dragging it through much thick cover. The added length of barrel gets me a little more gitty up, and the length and brake lets me see my bullet impacts. The length also has allowed me to compare my reloading efforts with the published data, a little more closely, as everything that I have found (and been supplied) lists a 24" test barrel. It is certainly a bit unbalanced, and with my Vltor stock it might get me thrown out of many AR gatherings, but it does work well, and I am loving it. I even had Marty put it together with a carbine gas system (for my QCB), and it has not missed a beat with proper reloads. I am running it with a MGI heavy buffer. I think if I were not concerned about seeing bullet impact, I would stay with the length, and see if Randall could flute it, for weight. Or perhaps, change to a thinner profile. I have kinda given up on the concept of a light "walking" varmint or hunting setup with the AR. They are just plain heavy, no matter what you do. At least as compared to a lot of other similar classed bolt guns out there. Craig |
Medium lightweight 20" barrel with a carbon fiber handguard will get you under 7lbs for the complete rifle. It's sure not a CZ mini-mauser, but it holds 30 rounds... I don't do fluting, but I can certainly thin the barrel down for you. |
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Randall, This statement leads me to believe you have never hunted in a cut-over before or any area where you can have long distance shots: <If you cant get within a 100 yards of them, you need help on stalking and woodsmanship skills...> In the places I have listed above, neither "stalking or woodsmanship skills" are of any consequence if your intended target won't come within your "100 yards". What is of consequence is range time with your weapon, knowing what distance you feel comfortable shooting an animal at and knowing what your weapon is capable of doing at that intended range. As an aside, I built up a 6x45 just prior to our deer season and took an 8 point weighing 170 lbs, with an 87 grain Hornady BTHP at about 70 yards. The rifle has a Olympic Arms 16" SUM barrel attached to a Stag lower and 4 pos stalk, which was perfect for a 'tree stand' gun. Pictures are available. Just my 02 Art |
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Actually, my Browning Abolt in .30-06 weighs more than my .50Beowulf! Once I trimmed things down with the carbon handgaurd which also slimmed the forend (I hate thick gompy forends!) and didn't have any rails or other junk on it. It carries quite nice in the woods! I would NOT be building the 6x45 for deer hunting here in Maine. I prefer using my .50B, 1895GS, or the .30-06. The 6x45 would be more for target/varmint work, so wiehgt is not a big deal. I REALLY like the Briley carbon ff tube and would probably use that. Second would be the JP VTAC handgaurd as you can bolt crap on if you want, third would be a PRI carbon ff tube for the same reasons (but is pricey). Any handload data would be appreciated. If it is already in this thread, ignore me and tell me to spend the 5 minutes for my dialup connection to connect to Page #1!!  |
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Art, Thank you very much for adding your info. Your deer is surely twice the weight of the loper that I took, and am pleased that your results mirror what I was suspecting. I would have thought that the 87 gr BTHP to be a match bullet. Very pleased that it worked for you. I may have to look at that one. I know this is a stupid question, as a dead deer indicates that the bullet worked, but did you get a chance to recover the bullet? Was it lung shot, or did you hit any bones? I ask, as I know that the Barnes TSX does work, I am just having difficulty getting it to group tightly. I have the Sierra match bullets grouping well, but have no proper way to test them for critter performance. As to your observations about needing the distance, I guess I'll interject, as I sort of started the conversation. What I was trying to point out in my details was that all of the guys that I hunt with for antelope all had special long range blasters built. I was the last hold out, using my 45-70 then 458, and finally my 6x45. In all the years of grief (and boy did I get a lot) that I got for not having a long range blaster, no one ever needed a long shot. That is certainly not to say that there are not hunting conditions that do indeed require them. Your observations of shooting skill are spot on. I think a lot of us out west tend to become cynical about what is really needed due to the volume of out of state hunters that we get that are way overgunned. And many times they have not mastered the points you mentioned. Many times they are in pretty poor physical shape, and most often have a hard time getting out of eyeshot of their ATV. I try not to be critical, as they are fellow hunters, who have chosen to do things a bit differently than I. What I was trying to point out is that there are instances where marketing hype and preconceived notions of what is needed, may not be so. At least it is food for thought. I'll throw out the extreme situation. I have a close friend in law enforcement who helps with the Colorado Division of Wildlife every hunting season. There are a group of hunters that he runs into every year that hunt long range with 50's. BMGs not B. They set up essentially a bench setup on a ridge, with the large range finders. There goal is to kill/hunt elk at extreme range. They do get their elk, and I suspect are doing it in a way that they enjoy. They are exhibiting zero woodsmanship skill, and complete rifle and equipment skill. I suspect that most of us are somewhere in between. Curly, I do have the Sierra Load data that was provided to me by another board member in PDF format. If you want to IM me with your info, I would gladly send it. As to my reloading efforts, I am not quite ready to share that, as I tend to be a little leary posting load data on line. But I would say that right now, with my 24" barrel, I am having no problems getting the Barnes TSX up to 2750 fps. I would , in a heartbeat, go carbon on the handguards, if I could. Unfortuntely, I am limited by what MGI provided with my QCB. |
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Bearbait1 I was 30ft up in a tree and just as I squeezed the trigger, the deer moved and the shot hit the deer in the lung area and "field dressed" the internals out the lower portion of the rib cage. He dropped, but got back up and moved about 10 yards further and I got a better shot that broke the left front leg, penetrated through to the heart area, and that was that. Bullet never exited the cavity. I had hoped to find the remains of the bullet but to no avail. I was also very concerned what these BTHP's would do, and I am still not really willing to use this toy at any distance beyond, say 100-150 yards. The groups from this bullet and the 95 Hornady SST were both under 1 moa, but I chose the lighter bullet for a tad more velocity. I do believe however that I will be using the SST next time. Brother no question is stupid, its those who will not ask questions who are the stupid ones. I have had the opportunity over the past several decades to hunt deer from close range (less than 300 yards) out to long range (past 600 yards), so woodsmanship is in my vocabulary, but unlike most all of the folks, I spend most weekends at my range. If you would like some of the load data I used, just send me an email, and I will be more than happy to send it to you. Good hunting Brother. Art |
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Art, Thanks for the details. It sounds like the bullet did perform reasonably well, if the second shot broke bone and still made it to the heart. And yes, I will take you up on your offer. How in the heck are you getting the 95 grain bullet into the case and magazine. I picked up a box of those and 95 grain Scirocco's and just looked at the length to fit in a magazine. I find that my case mouth is well forward of the point where the bullet starts to get smaller (ogive area). I have not found a polytipped or spire point boattail bullet over the 75-85 grain region that looks like it will give any type of reasonable powder charge, magazine length fit. I had to switch to a ball powder to get the TSX's to work. All of the short cut Hodgdon that I tried gave me major (read excessive) compression with the heavier spire point bullets. I did find a reasonable load with the 100 grain Grandslam, but that is a flatbase bullet. In case you haven't figured it out, I hardley care about velocity, I am looking for the proper bullet, with a decent BC and chance to be very accurate. I understand field dressing shot placement. The other side of my picture is pretty gorey. Pretty good sized entrance hole with a fair amount of internals, external. The lope was dead on his feet, but still managed to cover a bit of ground. I actually think that an animal hit with a fatal shot that runs off a bit and dies is a much more humane situation than an animal that is hit well, runs off (or just drops) and needs a finisher. Been there, and it is harder on me, as well. Thanks again for your help, Craig |
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Did you use the [email protected] email I hope? You probably had my old sacoriver.net email but we moved and all email gets forwarded from my work email to the home one. One day I will set up Outlook to do what it is designed to do! Thanks though! Did you use any of that wood yet? |
| I had the old email but I sent it again. I have yet to get the flatware in stock. I've tried ordering a couple of times and it is always out of stock. So, I've saved the wood. I want to finish that before I start using the wood so I don't end up having to used some other wood and have a mismatched set of flatware. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 6X45 Reloading Info ? (Page 1 of 2)
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