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Posted: 1/18/2006 8:27:20 AM EDT
Gunsmiths I been talking to regarding a build all say to use DPMS due to cost and quality issues versus Armalite. Any input from members regarding this topic would be greatly appreciated.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 2:19:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/18/2006 2:21:05 PM EDT by Scollins]
I don't have a DPMS, so I can't comment about them in terms of quality, cost, etc. I do have an Armalite AR10 though.

Quality - Armalite has been top notch. I do have some cycling problems to deal with, but I created them. I cut down a 100% reliable 24" T barrel to 18" and got some cycling problems. I expected that though, and there is no way Armalite can be held accountable for that.

Price - I think these two rifles are probably as close to the same as I can find:
Armalite AR10A4 Carbine - MSRP is $1,506 ($1,299 at Impact Guns)
DPMS 308 AP4 Carbine - MSRP is $1,249. ($1,199 at Impact Guns)

So while the MSRP is hundreds of dollars different, street price is only $100 different. Not much in my opinion. If you buy the Armalite from Quantico Arms, it is $1,203, so the difference is $4!. Street price on DPMS mags seems to be about $30 to $35, while Armalite's are $35 to $40. Also, I think there are far more "custom" parts available for the AR10 versus the DPMS. I think the aftermarket community is catching up with DPMS, but I think Armalite still has the edge.

The DPMS is brand new, basically an unproven platform. The Armalite in its current configuration has been around since 1996. I think many of the bugs have been worked out of it. Also, the Armalite's can be had with chrome lined barrels, I don't know about the DPMS.

That isn't to say that all AR10s work 100% right out of the box (like they should.) I'm not certain that can all be attributed to the rifle though, as many people use cheap surplus ammo in their rifles (SA 308 is from the early 80's I believe, over 20 years old!)

I personally would take the Armalite unless there was a significant savings to the DPMS (and all the parts I wanted were available for it, such as Larue rails and gas blocks, etc.) I think the DPMS is probably a good weapon though.

And, in true ARFCOM fashion....

GET BOTH!

Link Posted: 1/18/2006 2:27:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/18/2006 2:29:07 PM EDT by LARRYG]
The ArmaLite has a lifetime warranty.

BTW, would those gunsmiths be affiliated with a store that pushes DPMS?

You mentioned a build. Well, you are gonna have to use an Eagle Arms lower for that, ArmaLite does not sell the ArmaLite brand lowers seperately. You might find an individual with one for sale, but other than that, it will have to be an Eagle.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 3:40:42 PM EDT
Chuck Taylor dry-humps DPMS {and Glock}. Chuck has credentials and maybe a few other things that require antibiotics.

Dave S ownes two Armalite AR-10s: A4(Chrome-lined HB) and (T).
The 10A4 was built by Richard Clancy of Armalite and shoots in the .3XX". The 10(T) came out of the back stock of Bernie's Sports Center and sometimes does the .3XX" waltz ... mostly does the sub 0.5" even if I have the hiccups or standing on my head spitting wooden nickles.

I think I will stay with Dave S's recommendations for any and all future builds.

Dave S
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 8:49:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LARRYG:
The ArmaLite has a lifetime warranty.

That is one attractive aspect of Armalite, but if it's no good from the start all the warranties in the world are usless. That's why I'm trying to gather info to make the best decision.

BTW, would those gunsmiths be affiliated with a store that pushes DPMS?

Don't know for sure, but don't think so.

You mentioned a build. Well, you are gonna have to use an Eagle Arms lower for that, ArmaLite does not sell the ArmaLite brand lowers seperately. You might find an individual with one for sale, but other than that, it will have to be an Eagle.

I'll start with a complete rifle and swap parts as needed to get to where I'm going.

Thanks for the input and I welcome anything else you can think of.



Link Posted: 1/18/2006 8:51:59 PM EDT



And, in true ARFCOM fashion....

GET BOTH!

hr



hehehehe.... If I was in the position to...well then I wouldn't have to ask the question. Good info, more of the same please!
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 8:55:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DaveS:
Chuck Taylor dry-humps DPMS {and Glock}. Chuck has credentials and maybe a few other things that require antibiotics.

Dave S ownes two Armalite AR-10s: A4(Chrome-lined HB) and (T).
The 10A4 was built by Richard Clancy of Armalite and shoots in the .3XX". The 10(T) came out of the back stock of Bernie's Sports Center and sometimes does the .3XX" waltz ... mostly does the sub 0.5" even if I have the hiccups or standing on my head spitting wooden nickles.

I think I will stay with Dave S's recommendations for any and all future builds.

Dave S hr


I take it then that you like Armalite!?!
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 9:03:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By helix20:

Originally Posted By LARRYG:
The ArmaLite has a lifetime warranty.

That is one attractive aspect of Armalite, but if it's no good from the start all the warranties in the world are usless. That's why I'm trying to gather info to make the best decision.

BTW, would those gunsmiths be affiliated with a store that pushes DPMS?

Don't know for sure, but don't think so.

You mentioned a build. Well, you are gonna have to use an Eagle Arms lower for that, ArmaLite does not sell the ArmaLite brand lowers seperately. You might find an individual with one for sale, but other than that, it will have to be an Eagle.

I'll start with a complete rifle and swap parts as needed to get to where I'm going.

Thanks for the input and I welcome anything else you can think of.






I have 3.5 AR10s. Other than weeding out bad mags, they run perfectly. The bad mags were supposedly "factory" mags from a guy on this board, but turned out they were conversions.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 3:53:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/22/2006 3:58:08 PM EDT by T2]
I've got 2 AR-10s now (have had others) and they're absolutely top notch. I've got a DPMS as well and have had lots of time to compare.

Armalite has it all over DPMS in terms of quality. Forged receivers, fine finish, and mags can be created from M14 mags.

DPMS has receivers made from slab and extrusions. No ejector port. Their advantage is their cheap. Mags are more expensive than Armalite and you can't convert anything to them. The other mags made like them are even more expensive.

My vote is spend the extra money and get a rifle you can really show off.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 5:33:06 PM EDT
That would be true of the older extruded LR-308s, the AP4s are very much like an AR-10. The one thing I dislike with the DPMS is that the trigger guard is part of the lower receiver so I can't use a Magpul trigger guard with a MIAD like I have on everything else. You can still use a MIAD.

The AR-10 has a lot more aftermarket as it has been around longer but the DPMS is selling very briskly and many maufcaturers now support both systems.

The Ar-10 has evolved considerably though.....the DPMS is newer and has had less Darwinian influence.

Simon
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 5:38:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/22/2006 5:43:34 PM EDT by SHIVAN]
Isn't it funny how DPMS has suddenly exorcised all it's "quality" demons with their .308 rifles, but yet the same AR smiths several years ago slammed DPMS parts and quality??

Well, maybe it's not funny -- but sure is interesting.

If you ask most serious AR guys if they would use a DPMS bolt or carrier they would tell you "No way.", but in the same breath they will tell you that thier BIGGER .308 stuff is A-OK......

Alrighty then...


[ETA: I have had good success with DPMS parts used in bigbore 458 SOCOM conversions. I have read here where a DPMS rifle failed to finish a rather simple precision rifle course. Using factory match ammo. ]
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 6:12:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 5:54:39 PM EDT

DPMS has receivers made from slab and extrusions. No ejector port. Their advantage is their cheap. Mags are more expensive than Armalite and you can't convert anything to them. The other mags made like them are even more expensive.

/quote]

What happens to the expended round if there is no ejector port? Has DPMS gone to caseless ammo?
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 10:33:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SimonTan:
That would be true of the older extruded LR-308s, the AP4s are very much like an AR-10. The one thing I dislike with the DPMS is that the trigger guard is part of the lower receiver so I can't use a Magpul trigger guard with a MIAD like I have on everything else. You can still use a MIAD.

The AR-10 has a lot more aftermarket as it has been around longer but the DPMS is selling very briskly and many maufcaturers now support both systems.

The Ar-10 has evolved considerably though.....the DPMS is newer and has had less Darwinian influence.

Simon



Thanks Simon. Didn't know about the aftermarket fitment of the Magpul guard and grip.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 10:39:21 PM EDT
There's 3 LR308 uppers. The basic extruded tubular upper has no EJECTION PORT COVER. There is a steel version of this that looks like its forged. It has a case deflector and is very heavy.
Both have high Picatinny rails.

The AP4 upper receiver has AR-15 height rails, ejection port cover and forward assist.
Waiting on a couple of thse.

The extrusion guns work but aren't so lovely.

AR-10s are lovelier but the older guns are a functional crapshoot.

Simon
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 10:42:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/23/2006 10:43:50 PM EDT by helix20]

Originally Posted By Slash:
1 - Never buy anything based on price alone. "The bitterness of poor quality far outlasts the sweetness of low price."

2- I've never been impressed with the DPMS AR15s that I've owned and worked on, therfore I have no interest in purchasing one of their .308 guns. ArmaLite's quality, fit and finsh far surpasses what I've ssen from DPMS.

3 - The ArmaLite lifetime warranty is a valuable selling point, IMO. You said: "... if it's no good from the start all the warranties in the world are usless." while this is true, it is also true that EVERY manufacturer occasionally lets a 'lemon' slip through their QC. The difference is how the company handles service after the sale. I've had nothing but positive experiences with virtually everyone at ArmaLite. I've had the pleasure of meeting many of them in person. They are all great folks to deal with. If you ever have a problem, they will go out of their way to make things right.





I emailed both manufacturers asking them point blank (forgive the pun) why I should buy from you and not the other guy. The Armalite rep replied in a friendly way:

I appreciate and want to Thank you for your interest in an Armalite .308. I first would like to tell you little about our company and our product. Armalite is a Full Service facility; we have QA, machine shop, engineering, and assembly, sales and customer service in one location. All of our parts are built in house. Armalite rifles include a LIFETIME WARRENTY. We offer many different models in .223, .243, .308, and .300RSUM. We have all forged receivers. Our barrels are chrome lined, or chrome moly and stainless steel. Our picatinny gas blocks you can attach front sight. We also have experienced shooters and competitors on staff.

DPMS.

No "express" warranty. 3 year service on defects in material or workmanship.

No Chrome lined barrels; chrome moly and stainless only. Gas Blocks are flat; unable to mount detachable front sight. .308 upper receivers are machined from billets.

If you have any other questions please feel free to call. And I can assist you in finding a dealer in your area. Again Thank you for your interest in Armalite.

Melodee Starvish

Customer Service Rep.

ARMALITE, INC


DPMS replied: ........................................................................................


Sure makes you wonder if they're that interested before, how interested will they be after?

So, I guess my money is going to Geneseo, IL.

Now for the next question. Who is a good gunsmith with an Armalite to start on?
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 11:54:20 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 2:29:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2006 2:29:51 PM EDT by helix20]

Originally Posted By Slash:

Originally Posted By helix20:
Who is a good gunsmith with an Armalite to start on?



Depending on what work you need done, that are a lot of folks here who can help you.

SniperX is in TX and he manufactures FF tubes for AR10s and does other machine work too, IIRC. I do some work on AR10 uppers. Steve at ADCO Firearms has a lot of experience with AR10s, and he does top notch work, FAST. Quantico Arms is a good source for complete guns and stripped receivers. George Gardner at GA Precision is highly recommended, as is John Noveske, but their turn around time will be likely be much longer than ADCO, and their work is on the same par.




Do you know what part of TX SniperX is in? I've talked to GA and Noveske before, good folks there. What I want to do with this build is somewhat vague right now. I'm still putting the concept together. I know it will be suppressed, but haven't determined internal or QD yet. Probably ~18" barrel (Noveske), ARMS frontend, Magpul stock. Haven't determined much else (BUIS, trigger, optics, etc). So I need someone to parts swap and tuneup for reliability. Suggestions?
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:14:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 4:29:10 AM EDT
Thanks. Victoria is just up the road about 90 miles.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 6:40:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By helix20:
Gunsmiths I been talking to regarding a build all say to use DPMS due to cost and quality issues versus Armalite. Any input from members regarding this topic would be greatly appreciated.





helix, you don't mention what type gun you want to built - bench rifle - multi-use - cheapest possible_________________????? Or maybe I missed it. Your intended use will help these folks steer you right. In my PERSONAL opinion, DPMS is out for everything but a bench rifle.

Course there's always exceptions as some people like to hump 47 pounds through the woods cause they enjoy the feel of their nuts knocking against their knees.

5sub
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 1:24:28 PM EDT
Accurate mid range 3~600 m for the first rifle, CQB for the second AR10, but not completely sure about the second. Maybe 6.8 LMT instead. LOL the comment about humping 47 pounds. HA!!!
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 4:04:14 PM EDT
Art has a RS2 rail for the DPMS and will have it soon in AP4 height.

Simon
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