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Posted: 2/17/2010 2:52:41 PM EDT
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Hi Guys,
I am really racking my brain on this decision. I have been searching for days and can't come to a conclusion. I know many, many similar questions have been asked, but I am looking for someone to help *ME* decide. Basically, I am working on a new build. I am all set on the lower (Mega lower receiver, Magpul UBR & MIAD, Geissele SSA) and need help deciding on the upper. I am only considering 16" mid length systems and can't decide between the BCM standard or stainless barrel, the cost difference is not a factor in the decision. I also am only considering .223/5.56 caliber. I have a 4.5-20x scope that I may or may not put on it. I will almost certainly have an eotech (unmagnified) and BUIS (of course). The rifle will be used for the following purposes in order of importance: 1. 100 yard benchrest target shooting, plinking (1k-2k rounds per year) 2. Defense 3. SHTF Given that I plan to shoot this quite a bit, I first lean towards the standard barrel. However, given that I will be shooting at an indoor 100 yard range (don't ask, it's wierd) that takes away almost all the variables, I know that I will not be happy if it is not at least MOA and then lean towards the SS barrel. I am open to non BCM uppers (e.g. Noveske recon, but it is pricey and not available now) and/or building my own upper. Any guidance would be much appreciated! |
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I did the same thing, went back and forth, coudn't decide.
After I heard magpul was mkaing the MOE midlength grips, and they had the sale, I pulled the trigger on a 16" mid-length non BFH non stainless standard upper. I do not regret it one bit, mine runs like a top even with the .22 kit in it. . I'm sure the stainless shoots tighter groups, and the BFH will outlast mine, but man when I get to the point where those are serious concerns, (Can afford the ammo, have trained enough to see the difference in accuracy) I'll pony up for my next upper. Mine shoots real good groups of the 55gr cheap stuff, and I haven't had the time to take it out to the longer ranges. Having said that, the stainless will probably group better for benchrest, and IS a darn nice upper. My decision was to have the upper done and spend the rest of the cash saved on some ammo (and a gunfighter CH get one I promise its worth it) I guess what I'm saying is follow your gut, but neither is the "wrong" choice. If you got the cash, it sounds like with your lower setup, the stainless may be the way to go. |
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Quoted:
Hi Guys, I am really racking my brain on this decision. I have been searching for days and can't come to a conclusion. I know many, many similar questions have been asked, but I am looking for someone to help *ME* decide. Basically, I am working on a new build. I am all set on the lower (Mega lower receiver, Magpul UBR & MIAD, Geissele SSA) and need help deciding on the upper. I am only considering 16" mid length systems and can't decide between the BCM standard or stainless barrel, the cost difference is not a factor in the decision. I also am only considering .223/5.56 caliber. I have a 4.5-20x scope that I may or may not put on it. I will almost certainly have an eotech (unmagnified) and BUIS (of course). The rifle will be used for the following purposes in order of importance: 1. 100 yard benchrest target shooting, plinking (1k-2k rounds per year) 2. Defense 3. SHTF Given that I plan to shoot this quite a bit, I first lean towards the standard barrel. However, given that I will be shooting at an indoor 100 yard range (don't ask, it's wierd) that takes away almost all the variables, I know that I will not be happy if it is not at least MOA and then lean towards the SS barrel. I am open to non BCM uppers (e.g. Noveske recon, but it is pricey and not available now) and/or building my own upper. Any guidance would be much appreciated! BCM standard barrels in my experience have been exceptionally accurate. I'd love to post numbers but there are people on this forum that think the ammunition itself isn't capable of the results I have seen so to avoid conflict, lets just say...they can be plenty accurate. In short, ammunition selection will make or break the accuracy of both barrels. The stainless barrel with mil-spec ammunition will group nearly the same as a chrome lined which will both be over MOA. I'd have no problem betting that if you ran some good black hills 68-77 grain stuff, your chrome lined barrel will throw out MOA accuracy, and thats exactly what it will take to get a stainless sub MOA as well. So the question is, will you shell out the extra coin for ammunition to make the stainless accuracy benefits even noticable, and is 1/2 inch difference in accuracy going to bother you that much on the off occasion that you toss on your magnified optic? For shit hitting the fan, your biggest concern is getting rounds on target and having a nice long lasting barrel. Chrome and Stainless quite frankly will do both for PLENTY thousands of rounds, much more than you'd make it through if the shit really hit the fan. What you will notice is the weight difference. The standard barrel is much lighter than the stainless, and that quite frankly is what you WILL NOTICE THE MOST while shooting. Most SHTF scenarios that even seem remotely plausible to me would be of the type that your eotech would be the optic of choice. Long story short, the closer the threat, the more immediate it is. Immediate threats need immediate action and a non magnified optic is your best bet for getting hits fast. I've seen plenty of people make hits out to 400 with a non-magnified optic for what its worth. You're most likely going to slap an eotech on there for anything realistic, so I would tailor this particular setup around that. Down the line, you can get the stainless barrel and build a new upper, and give your scope a permanent home. If you want a truly versatile upper, I would go with a chrome lined standard BCM barrel. Free float it, and there ya go. Another thing you should look at is the trijicon TR24 1-4 optic with the triangle reticle. You can run it with about 97% of the speed of a non magnified optic like your eotech, and then crank it up to 4x when the situation dictates. I have had stupidly good luck with making tiny groups at 100 yards out of my BCM standard chrome lined barrel, and have absolutely zero problems getting hits at 400 at a fairly rapid rate of fire off of a bipod. Its frankly so easy it gets a little boring after a while. |
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Thanks for all the feedback! I have to say that I am leaning towards the standard barrel now. I know that the M4 profile is lighter, but I really wish BCM offered a medium profile chrome lined 1:7 barrel. I am not overly concerned with the weight of the barrel. I will be using the DD Lite hand guard so that saves a few ounces.
I really think the eotech will be the primary optic, co-witnessing with BUIS as an option. It will have the larue mount so I can throw it on and off as necessary. I doubt I will spring for the eotech magnifier, nor will my scope go on this upper. I also imagine that I will be using cheap ammo MUCH more than match. 1. OK, so is there any reason to consider the BFH barrel? Or should I just settle it and call it for the standard barrel. 2. Are there any other brands of complete uppers to consider? Noveske N4 lopro is too expensive. Larue only has stainless barrels. Anything else? |
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Quoted:
Thanks for all the feedback! I have to say that I am leaning towards the standard barrel now. I know that the M4 profile is lighter, but I really wish BCM offered a medium profile chrome lined 1:7 barrel. I am not overly concerned with the weight of the barrel. I will be using the DD Lite hand guard so that saves a few ounces. I really think the eotech will be the primary optic, co-witnessing with BUIS as an option. It will have the larue mount so I can throw it on and off as necessary. I doubt I will spring for the eotech magnifier, nor will my scope go on this upper. I also imagine that I will be using cheap ammo MUCH more than match. 1. OK, so is there any reason to consider the BFH barrel? Or should I just settle it and call it for the standard barrel. 2. Are there any other brands of complete uppers to consider? Noveske N4 lopro is too expensive. Larue only has stainless barrels. Anything else? I have shot the N4...over 17k on mine... I have built a BCM "standard" for my buddy... I have a BCM CHF barrel waiting to replace the N4 when she wears out... The "standard" BCM barrel is a great barrel...on first day out, the BCM barrel went through over a thousand rounds with out an issue...never put a scope on it ,but sighted it in with the BUIS for 50 yards...the barrel grouped well. With iron sights...hard to tell the barrel's accuracy. It was still doing 2"+ off bags at 50 yards, with my 3 moa reloads......No doubt it could do better with magnified optics and without my retarded friend pulling the trigger on his build...:-) The "standard" BCM barrel now has over 2K rounds through it...we usually shoot active targets...did I mention that I built my buddy's gun in November? For a low round count barrel (fun count)... and what you stated that you looking for...get the "standard" BCM barrel...get the LaRue gas block...use red locktight...and have fun...with Match ammo you still may get MOA...I am not that good... |
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Quoted:
1. OK, so is there any reason to consider the BFH barrel? Or should I just settle it and call it for the standard barrel. 2. Are there any other brands of complete uppers to consider? Noveske N4 lopro is too expensive. Larue only has stainless barrels. Anything else? 1. NO. YES. 2. NO. NO. |
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On 12-24-09 I contacted Pat Rogers to see what the current round count of the BCM 16" Mid-Length that he has been loaning out to students. Pat refers to this BCM Mid-Length as "Filthy 14" and provided me with the following information on this gun:
***************************************************************************************************************************************** "Filthy #14 is the most used, and has (as 12-24-09) 28905 rounds down range. The barrel is original. It has never had a brush put through it. -At 16,400 rounds bolt lug cracked. Replaced the bolt carrier group -At approximately 26,000 rounds fired a 5 shot 50m group that went into 0.5". This might not be that tight at 100 meters. -At 26,450 rds had 3 failures to extract. Replaced BCG and cleaned gun for the first time We use only SLip2000 EWL for lube and Slip 2000 725 to clean. **All of the rounds were fired during class (at the rate of approximately 1,250 rounds every 3 days)** I do not recommend allowing the gun to go this long without PM (preventive maintenance). However, we wanted to see how far we could take this particular gun (#14) without being burdened by the myth of meticulous cleaning." *************************************************************************************************************************************** Keep in mind the punishment that Pat Rogers' BCM mid-length has been put through. The gun is being shot approximately 8 hours a day in a tactical training class environment at the rate of approximately 1,250 rounds every 3 days. Very few people have the time, money, or effort to run a gun like that for 28,905 rounds. This upper has the standard barrel, not the new BFH (cold hammer forged) barrel. http://www.03designgroup.com/reviews/bcm-complete-ar15-upper-and-lower-receivers |
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Quoted:
For a low round count barrel (fun count)... and what you stated that you looking for...get the "standard" BCM barrel...get the LaRue gas block...use red locktight...and have fun...with Match ammo you still may get MOA...I am not that good... What do you define as "low round count"? While I know that I could build an upper, I don't have some of the parts (upper receiver vice block, armorer's wrench, torque wrench, headspace gauges, etc...) and those are not cheap which is why I am looking at complete uppers. Why does it matter which gas block? I am still considering the larue rail (as opposed to DD Lite). Is it true that only the larue gas block fits under that hand guard? If I do build my own upper, is this a complete parts list?: 1. Upper Receiver (assembled) (BCM flat top) $93.95 2. Barrel (BCM 16" mid-length standard) $229 3. Hand Guard (with barrel nut) (larue tactical 12") $299 4. Gas Block (larue) $69 5. Gas Tube $13 6. Bolt Carrier Group (BCM auto) $139.95 7. Charge Handle (BCM Gunfighter) $44.95 Totaling: $888.85 which is about $75 cheaper than buying the assembled upper. If I do that, I could rent a torque wrench and get the other tools and it is essentially a wash for the cost of buying the complete upper. What size gas block does a gov profile barrel use btw? 3/5" or 5/8" Edit: Oh, I forgot the flash hider... vortex $50 |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
For a low round count barrel (fun count)... and what you stated that you looking for...get the "standard" BCM barrel...get the LaRue gas block...use red locktight...and have fun...with Match ammo you still may get MOA...I am not that good... What do you define as "low round count"? While I know that I could build an upper, I don't have some of the parts (upper receiver vice block, armorer's wrench, torque wrench, headspace gauges, etc...) and those are not cheap which is why I am looking at complete uppers. Why does it matter which gas block? I am still considering the larue rail (as opposed to DD Lite). Is it true that only the larue gas block fits under that hand guard? If I do build my own upper, is this a complete parts list?: 1. Upper Receiver (assembled) (BCM flat top) $93.95 2. Barrel (BCM 16" mid-length standard) $229 3. Hand Guard (with barrel nut) (larue tactical 12") $299 4. Gas Block (larue) $69 5. Gas Tube $13 6. Bolt Carrier Group (BCM auto) $139.95 7. Charge Handle (BCM Gunfighter) $44.95 Totaling: $888.85 which is about $75 cheaper than buying the assembled upper. If I do that, I could rent a torque wrench and get the other tools and it is essentially a wash for the cost of buying the complete upper. What size gas block does a gov profile barrel use btw? 3/5" or 5/8" Edit: Oh, I forgot the flash hider... vortex $50 Low round count is what you stated in the OP about 1-2K per year... Get the assembled DD from BCM for $779? Great deal link Dang...that price does not have the BCG.... The tools to put it together may cost you $50 if you have a vise...you really do not need a torque wrench if you read the how to tech forum... You do not need headspace guages with a new barrel extension and a new bolt... |
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Quoted:
Dang...that price does not have the BCG.... yeah, that's the kicker Quoted:
The tools to put it together may cost you $50 if you have a vise...you really do not need a torque wrench if you read the how to tech forum... You do not need headspace guages with a new barrel extension and a new bolt... I know, I just want to make sure I don't get in over my head. I think all I really need is the upper receiver vice block and an armorer's wrench. Thanks for all the help! |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Dang...that price does not have the BCG.... yeah, that's the kicker Quoted:
The tools to put it together may cost you $50 if you have a vise...you really do not need a torque wrench if you read the how to tech forum... You do not need headspace guages with a new barrel extension and a new bolt... I know, I just want to make sure I don't get in over my head. I think all I really need is the upper receiver vice block and an armorer's wrench. Thanks for all the help! People in the "know" usually want pinned gas blocks. BCM barrels have a dimple for the screw retained gas block. I have 9K on a LaRue gas block without any issues... |
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