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Posted: 12/19/2005 5:44:13 PM EDT
I'm working on an AR project and want a good trigger for personal defense use. I will be getting a RRA lower to go with my RRA upper. My only experience with factory triggers is Colt (yuck), Bushmaster (one step above yuck) and Jewell 2-Stage (sweeeeeeet).

I'm looking for a single stage trigger that is smooth, in the 3-5 lb range, smooth, preferably adjustable, smooth, reliable, and smooth. I've gritted my teeth enough on lousy triggers that smooth is a major criteria.

Anything out there that fits my needs? hanks
Greg
Back after a three year hiatus--my how things have changed!
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 6:01:16 PM EDT
I would say Chip McCormick but you wanted adustable

JP would be my choice
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 6:15:16 PM EDT
Thanks herron.

The Chip McCormick looks really cool but there appears to be a need for anti-walk pins which is a big turn off for me. Anyone out there with experience with the CMC triggers?
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 7:33:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2005 7:35:16 PM EDT by Tack]

Originally Posted By gregbrownrn:
Thanks herron.

The Chip McCormick looks really cool but there appears to be a need for anti-walk pins which is a big turn off for me. Anyone out there with experience with the CMC triggers?




Once you've had your pins "walk"...you'll change your mind. And don't let anyone that it hasn't happened to influence you. It's the time that IT DOES happen that matters.

Anti Walk Pins ROCK!!!

IMHO...No match type triggers are suitable for "Serious Work". Way too "finicky", with too many things that can go wrong. Stick with the factory trigger, and .....practice!

Tack
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 8:11:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2005 8:11:45 PM EDT by bigbore]
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 10:08:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gregbrownrn:
I'm looking for a single stage trigger that is smooth, in the 3-5 lb range, smooth, preferably adjustable, smooth, reliable, and smooth. I've gritted my teeth enough on lousy triggers that smooth is a major criteria.



Single stage, you got the JP, Accuracy speaks or the CMC (it's pertty much out of stock everywhere ATM). The first two you can adjust the weight of pull via changing trigger and hammer springs and the JP you can control the ammount of sear engagement and over-travel. On the accuracy speaks system sear/hammer engagement is pre-set by the hammer and I don't know if you can do anything about over-travel. CMC is pre-set. All will be between 3-5 lbs.

If you don't like the E-clip anti-walk pins you may like the KNS pins.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 4:37:06 AM EDT
Once again, the forum comes through!

Those KNS pins are pretty trick and might change my mind about anti-walk pins.

The JP modular trigger is also pretty cool--a serious contender.

The Geissele. . . .quite nice, but about the cost of my lower reciever!

Maybe the CMC (once available) with some KNS pins.

Thanks for all the great input.

America: The Land of Choices.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 4:41:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 4:49:30 AM EDT by ar-jedi]

Originally Posted By gregbrownrn:
Maybe the CMC (once available) with some KNS pins.


the stock CMC E-clip pins are fine.

see this thread (archive server) and my pics on page 2:
archive.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=207316

see also (archive server again):
archive.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=231976

ar-jedi


ETA for the non-paying slugs:



folks,
i recently purchased a CM trigger from wes at MSTN. i chose the single stage curved.

like many others have found, the supplied CM pins are a few thousandths proud of the nominal trigger pin hole size. i chose *not* to hammer the pins in and instead carefully shed a few thousandths off of the supplied pins using some fine emery cloth. i fitted the pins tight, they do not rotate but at the same time getting them in and out does not deform the receiver holes. hence, periodic disassembly for cleaning/inspection/etc is trivial.

to reiterate what was said above, the E-clips do not detract from this otherwise excellent trigger assembly. properly installed, they stand off about 0.010" from the receiver side and i can't really see how they could catch on anything. the clips are well retained in the pin groove by tension and need a pretty good push with the blunt end of a BIC pen to extract.

just my 0.02 on the matter.

ar-jedi

ps: as you can see from the pictures below, my lower is a bushy. the selector can *not* be returned to "safe" with the hammer forward. it will go about 1/2 way to around 10:30 but can not be rotated further. incidentally, this brings up another point... when i installed the trigger assy, i had to leave out the rearmost trigger pin to get the selector back into the lower; otherwise, the trigger assy "tail" (sorry, don't know the correct term) would interfere very slightly (few thousandths) with insertion of the selector barrel. leaving out the rear trigger pin allows the CM trigger assembly to temporarily sit just a tad lower; this is all it takes to get the selector barrel into the lower receiver.

















Link Posted: 12/20/2005 4:46:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gregbrownrn:
want a good trigger for personal defense use ....<snip>... preferably adjustable


ps: why adjustable for SHTF use?

ar-jedi

Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:30:03 AM EDT
ar-jedi:

For overtravel and pull weight, but I said preferably. I'm coming to think that it does go aganst the bulletproof aspect I'm desiring. The more knobs, screws and switches, the more that can go wrong. I think I'll drop the adjustability completely and just go with smooth and a 3-5 lb weight.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:47:43 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 6:05:11 AM EDT
i like the looks of the geissele but have used the cmc triggers along with the kns pins for some time now without a single problem.

have two with one reaching close to the 8k mark
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 6:16:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 6:26:26 AM EDT by Big-FED]
All the advice given here is very good given by people who have incredible amounts of experience. The only comment I can offer is that none of these folks are you and you are the one behind that trigger. One fact is, IMHO, that you will never notice the quality of the trigger in a true SHTF event. Absolute reliability is the one thing required if this is your "go to" SHTF weapon. Set screws, c-clips, special pins, etc. won't make up for the KISS trigger that drops the hammer every time.

In my many years I have heard almost all the excuses for misses, but it comes down to the one part of the firing mechanism that has no capacity for customization, the finger on the trigger and the brain, somewhere up the line, that controls it. A true shooter can shoot almost any gun accurately, while those who can't shoot worth a damn won't be helped by gizmos and gadgets.

Get an AR box stock. When you can outshoot it, then worry about those sublte improvemnts thay may actually help and just not be excuses.

FYI, I have a box stock RRA Elite that works every time. I have a Aimpoint ML3 and I'm ready. More practice, more better.

Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:08:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 7:11:25 AM EDT by gregbrownrn]
bigbore: I have plenty of experience with the AK in the Army and in civilian life. I had a beautiful Hungarian AK for awhile. My experience: the most god-awful rifle one will ever shoot. Reliable? Yes. Powerful? Yes. Accurate? Nope. Ergonomic? Nope. Kick Like a Mule? Yes! I don't want to start the whole AR vs. AK argument again but I will gladly take an AR over any AK any day. Ya know, a 20 year-old slap happy pickup truck will get you from point A to point B just fine but there is a reason for sport coupes, too.

Big-FED: I'm not looking for excuses--I've used everyone in the book and have made up my own plenty of times! You are right--there is no substitute for trigger time. I just want a trigger that doesn't make me grit my teeth with every shot. I remember so fondly my custom AR several years ago with a Lilja bbl , Leupold 8-25x and Jewell trigger . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .OK, I'm back now. Why DID I sell that thing??? hinking.gif

I make no illusions as to being anything other than an armchair warrior who will be shooting his rifle off the bench much more (hopefully) than in any confrontation. I don't want to start a fight but I want the ability to finish it.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 9:29:39 AM EDT
jp
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 9:40:08 AM EDT
For serious work I think the JP is the only trigger to have. The CM triggers are good but they have too little takeup and creep to be good for high round counts the way I see it.

They'll probably go down in less than 10,000 rounds.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 11:18:46 AM EDT
I know you said single stage.

However... Have you tried a stock RRA NM 2 stage. Really a good trigger right out of the box.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 2:11:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 2:13:51 PM EDT by M4-TUNA]
I love my Colt stock trigger it is crisp. I have a different trigger in each of my guns (5). the Chip trigger is nice but I hate the pin set up. Now for SHTF I would not like this because of the pin issue, but I love it in my long range set up. Try this, stock trigger parts, cut of the hook of the hammer and then use JP yellow spring kit. I have this set up in my Dissy gun and it is great all around. But U said serious work so I would go stock trigger. O I have a White Oak RRA trigger in my Ar10 it was heavyfor me,so I changed the springs with the David Tubbs springs and lost some weight on it.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 2:51:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gregbrownrn:
I'm working on an AR project and want a good trigger for personal defense use. I will be getting a RRA lower to go with my RRA upper. My only experience with factory triggers is Colt (yuck), Bushmaster (one step above yuck) and Jewell 2-Stage (sweeeeeeet).

I'm looking for a single stage trigger that is smooth, in the 3-5 lb range, smooth, preferably adjustable, smooth, reliable, and smooth. I've gritted my teeth enough on lousy triggers that smooth is a major criteria.
Anything out there that fits my needs?
Thanks as always.
Greg
Back after a three year hiatus--my how things have changed!



Given the title of the thread " for serious work" and the weapon system describe, stay with a factory single stage for serious (civilian/LE weapon) non-precision use. If you have to use the weapon, you will never notice the trigger pull. For serious precision work only the KAC 2-stage. I have 2 LMT 2-stage triggers that are going to be replaced with KAC. I have T&E them for better than 9 months now. I like LMT gear, but their 2-stage trigger does not have the reliability of the KAC. IMHO

I run factory single stage (Colt , LMT or BM) in all my non-precision AR platforms.



Link Posted: 12/20/2005 6:56:19 PM EDT
Seems to me the Boys working for Uncle Sugar have been killin dudes for well over 40 years with stock triggers and stock pins........In all my years workin for the man, I never saw a Pin walk or a trigger fail..... seems like their's a lesson in their for anyone smart enough to find it......

best advice I reas was Big-FED's rounds and practice will overcome ANY trigger... everything else is just shortcuts.....
But then again, everyone is always looking for the easy way now a days.........
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:24:06 PM EDT
Hey Harv24: so right about the pins--I've seen just about everything break on an M-16 except the trigger pins! I remember in Basic some guy losing his forward assist. How did that thing come out?!?!?!?

KIS--Keep It Simple. Whoever put the extra S on the end of that for Stupid was just that--Stupid.

Once again, thanks for all of the contributions. I've had enough trigger time with factory triggers that makes me want to find something better. I'm really leaning toward the JP with a factory hammer for additional mass for military primers. Some pretty dead simple adjustments on the JP and everything is ready to go. This rifle project will really be a hybrid between target and defense, with a little more leaning toward target and fun at the range.

Oh yes, and practice, practice, practice. . . . . . .

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to All
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:39:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Harv24:
Seems to me the Boys working for Uncle Sugar have been killin dudes for well over 40 years with stock triggers and stock pins........In all my years workin for the man, I never saw a Pin walk or a trigger fail..... seems like their's a lesson in their for anyone smart enough to find it......

best advice I reas was Big-FED's rounds and practice will overcome ANY trigger... everything else is just shortcuts.....
But then again, everyone is always looking for the easy way now a days.........



Harv, auto triggers seem to be a bit more reliable than semi triggers. If I could have 1 trigger, it would be a KAC auto trigger. Never heard of the auto one going Tango Uniform. US military is using them in quantity now.

That said, I shoot a stock trigger for now, until I find a solution that I trust not to fail on me. But this 8 pound three stage bullshit is getting old. I can barely fire a decent hammer with it without slapping it.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 10:14:38 PM EDT
"Seems to me the Boys working for Uncle Sugar have been killin dudes for well over 40 years with stock triggers and stock pins........In all my years workin for the man, I never saw a Pin walk or a trigger fail..... seems like their's a lesson in their for anyone smart enough to find it......

best advice I reas was Big-FED's rounds and practice will overcome ANY trigger... everything else is just shortcuts.....
But then again, everyone is always looking for the easy way now a days........."

That's really not exactly true. The trigger will always help and that means for the guy with or without the practice.

Your going to need ten to fifteen times the ammo to shoot as well as the guy with the trigger and I don't think a lot of people have the money on their own budget or the freedom in the military to fire 160+ THOUSAND rounds.

I'm a HUGE advocate of everthing having a decent trigger a JP single stage with stock [auto] hammer and stock hammer spring and the yellow trigger return spring-- set for a little extra overtravel is the way my gun in Iraq was settup and everyone could feel a huge difference; yet I fired about 11,000rounds without much if any wear in the engagement and no problems whatsoever with reliability.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 11:45:09 AM EDT
The Knight's Auto 2-stage trigger fails faster than the semi-only, possibly because of slightly extra mass of the hammer. The Army Marksmanship Unit regularly changes out bad KAC 2-stages.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 12:59:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sinister:
The Knight's Auto 2-stage trigger fails faster than the semi-only, possibly because of slightly extra mass of the hammer. The Army Marksmanship Unit regularly changes out bad KAC 2-stages.



Really? Damn, that is the pits. I'm gonna have to yell at KevinB for that advice
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 1:19:06 PM EDT
people have different preferences. after having a jp in my match rifle, shooting a stock trigger is just annoying.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 1:44:12 PM EDT
From greenO


That's really not exactly true. The trigger will always help and that means for the guy with or without the practice.

Your going to need ten to fifteen times the ammo to shoot as well as the guy with the trigger and I don't think a lot of people have the money on their own budget or the freedom in the military to fire 160+ THOUSAND rounds.

I'm a HUGE advocate of everthing having a decent trigger a JP single stage with stock [auto] hammer and stock hammer spring and the yellow trigger return spring-- set for a little extra overtravel is the way my gun in Iraq was settup and everyone could feel a huge difference; yet I fired about 11,000rounds without much if any wear in the engagement and no problems whatsoever with reliability.




So your one sample out of Millions of rifles in the past 40+ years. not even statistically worth debating.
Triggers going tits up are like car insurance. Nobody wakes up every day expecting to get in a car accident...... it just happens, and unless you have a magic 8 ball and are realy good at predicting the future you don't get the luxury of knowing when it's gonna happen.

A good riflemen can take a rack grade weapon with a stock factory trigger and hit what he's aiming at.

Worked for Lt Audi Murphy
worked for Chesty Puller
Worked for Sgt Alvin York
and a whole list of other guys

never heard them complain or need a fancy aftermarket "crutch"er, I mean trigger

Competition /Presicion weapon, aftermarket is fine, 300 M battle rifle, just a liability waiting to catch you at the wrong time... When Jerry Micleck or Rob leathams trigger goes down, nobody runs the risk of Loosing your life,
You were in a unit that let you get away with modifying your trigger, You would not have gotten away with if I were there...
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 2:23:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/21/2005 2:24:44 PM EDT by bigbore]
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 6:40:36 PM EDT
You miss the point, Serious shooters who use these weapons for serious work don't get wrapped around the axle on this Uber trigger and that. competition, etc...fine, have at it, but for reliability among the masses, it's not the trigger that's gonna decide the outcome. it's the skill and training and mindset of the guy behind the trigger that is gonna make it happen. and over 40 years of American fighting men and women have been using stock triggers to dispatch our Enemies.
Remember the PFC who was in the Pvt Lynch convoy ambush. He was awarded the Silver Star for killing at least 4-5 of the Enemy. He had to use his Forward Assist and single fire. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the last thing he was thinking about was how poor his stock trigger was and how much more accurate he would be if only he had an aftermarket trigger ..........
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 7:23:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Harv24:
You miss the point, Serious shooters who use these weapons for serious work don't get wrapped around the axle on this Uber trigger and that. competition, etc...fine, have at it, but for reliability among the masses, it's not the trigger that's gonna decide the outcome. it's the skill and training and mindset of the guy behind the trigger that is gonna make it happen. and over 40 years of American fighting men and women have been using stock triggers to dispatch our Enemies.
Remember the PFC who was in the Pvt Lynch convoy ambush. He was awarded the Silver Star for killing at least 4-5 of the Enemy. He had to use his Forward Assist and single fire. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the last thing he was thinking about was how poor his stock trigger was and how much more accurate he would be if only he had an aftermarket trigger ..........



Harv, fact of the matter is, if a good trigger was made that was AS RELIABLE as stock, it would be a better tool. Like I keep saying, the 8 pound triggers I keep getting in my carbines make it hard to even fire a decent hammer. I won't pretend to be a great fighter, but I am a good shooter and find the 8 pound trigger to be much more difficult to use. I still use it because it doesnt break, and I don't trust the aftermarket triggers.

There is no reason a soldier can't be a hell of a fighter AND have a decent trigger in his rifle. All this crap I keep hearing about how no one will notice their trigger when they are shooting at people is just that, crap. Sure you won't feel it--but that doesnt mean its not a factor. And if I'm gonna have an adrenaline response and jerk the trigger, I would rather be jerking on a 4 pound trigger than an 8 pound trigger.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 7:57:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Harv24:
You miss the point, Serious shooters who use these weapons for serious work don't get wrapped around the axle on this Uber trigger and that. competition, etc...fine, have at it, but for reliability among the masses, it's not the trigger that's gonna decide the outcome. it's the skill and training and mindset of the guy behind the trigger that is gonna make it happen. and over 40 years of American fighting men and women have been using stock triggers to dispatch our Enemies.



How many officers and soldiers (MARSOC) carry semi-custom to full blown custom 1911's which all have hand fitted hammers/sears? Nobody in this thread is talking about a rifle for the masses, and regardless of your opinion it is possible to have to have a non stock FCG that is 100% reliable. I wouldn't trust a new mil spec FCG without inspection (30x magnification in my case), testing, firing a significant numbers of rounds and then inspecting again (there have been mil spec FCGs that didn't get properly case hardened and in such a case they will fail). The same applies to a non stock FCG. Of course you have to have the right mind set to win a fight along with the right training and skills, that's a given. But you will be faster and more accurate with a predictable clean breaking trigger. If you don't believe me get your timer out and test it, you can't cheat when your on the clock (with as much as your talking about training I assume you do have a shooting timer). If your in a fight with people shooting back do you think being faster and more accurate might just matter?
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 10:52:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/21/2005 11:04:38 PM EDT by Green0]
"people have different preferences. after having a jp in my match rifle, shooting a stock trigger is just annoying."

BIG + 1


I'll bet that POG motherfucker who was single firing his M16 was thinking "BOY I WISH I HAD KEPT THIS BASTARD CLEAN."

"So your one sample out of Millions of rifles in the past 40+ years. not even statistically worth debating."

The trigger has probably 30-50 thousandths of disconector engagement easy it's not goint to give up the ghost any time soon. At any rate it's probably more statistically viable than your lack of any example whatsoever.



"A good riflemen can take a rack grade weapon with a stock factory trigger and hit what he's aiming at."

Your missing the point-- I'm a good rifleman [have five consecutive peacetime expert quals with stock triggers to prove that] and I can produce the same accuracy in 1/3 the time or less with a good trigger as the guy with the stock trigger. In combat often 1/2 a second is a long time-- that's the reason why things that allow a shooter to take an accurate shot in four tenths of a second less time are a big deal.

"Worked for Lt Audi Murphy
worked for Chesty Puller
Worked for Sgt Alvin York
and a whole list of other guys"

Can you really guarantee that none of those guys touched their trigger? <I stoned my M14 trigger to the point it was probably at 3-4lbs.

"never heard them complain or need a fancy aftermarket "crutch"er, I mean trigger"

You never talked to them either.

"Competition /Presicion weapon, aftermarket is fine, 300 M battle rifle, just a liability waiting to catch you at the wrong time... When Jerry Micleck or Rob leathams trigger goes down, nobody runs the risk of Loosing your life,
You were in a unit that let you get away with modifying your trigger, You would not have gotten away with if I were there..."


I wouldn't have worked for you either-- I'm not a fucking lemming following any dumbass over the edge to my death. Neither were the guys that worked with me.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 11:07:54 PM EDT
Wow I don't even know where to start, how about this ignorant statment for starters

Originally from GreenO

I'll bet that POG motherfucker who was single firing his M16 was thinking "BOY I WISH I HAD KEPT THIS BASTARD CLEAN."


So PFC Patrick Miller, the guy who was caught in an Ambush, shot in the Arm, and kills a seven man Iraqi Mortar team, a Soldier that fought until he could fight no more, a Soldier who was awarded his countries 3 rd highest decoration for bravery is a Pouge (Correct spelling) motherfucker??? is that about right?

GreenO

Can you really guarantee that none of those guys touched their trigger? <I stoned my M14 trigger to the point it was probably at 3-4lbs.



So they hand you one of the match M14's that the State Hipower shooters had been using for years (yeah, I know where you got your M14 from) And you decide with all of your Knowledge your gonna take a stone to the sear and "adjust it" to 3-4 lbs. You pack your trigger weight scale with you as well??

Yet your the same guy who "Highly recommends" a Airsoft knock off Mount to others' in another thread.

Your the worst kind of poser, cause you did a year in Iraq and saw little combat (get your CIB?? I'm guessing not) Now your gonna use that as your base line to quantify your incredible base of knowledge. So now you have a permit to spread any bullshit you want and it will go unchallenged cause you did a "Tour" in Iraq. Which automatically means your an authority on all things Military and all things to do with weapons based on "your" Experience.


20 years from now you'll be like the "VietNam" vet who "swears" their M16 was made by mattel and we just have to believe you cause "you " were their.

or the one that Swears that an AK rd will fire out of an M16 chamber cause "Charlie" designed it that way.

Your the same kind guy who'll say "I used a BetaCmag in Iraq and I never had a problem"

You'll be telling everyone you were a "sniper" cause you carried an M14 and had it "Customized"


And yet you have the Balls to Call a Silver Star recipeint a "Pog Motherfucker" (you don't even know how to spell it)
Please feel free to post your decorations and your CIB...


I'm done with you. responces to anything you have to say in any future threads would be pointless and a waste of my time. I feel I just ran a race in a Special Olympic's contest......

I apologize to the rest of you for this Hijack
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 11:47:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 7:41:19 AM EDT
Harv24,

You've got to stop holding things inside, its no good for you.


On a side note, my newest Colt has one of the worst triggers I've ever felt, while my oldest has one of the nicest.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 11:49:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/23/2005 11:58:28 AM EDT by Green0]
The guys I worked with worked in sandstorms and shot their rifles often and never did any of them have problems keeping their weapons running. We in the infantry don't have sympathy for people who can't keep their issued weapons running. I have repaired rifles for fellow soldiers as we didn't have an armorer around-- Infatry soldiers know their weapons.

You know I feel sorry for the guy having to get shot and captured, and I guess he did more than the rest of his unit that appeared to be incapacitated or had given up as it seemed in the article I read about that but it isn't what infantry soldiers would do-- we don't allow ourselves to be captured if at all possible. That means we would plan on fighting to the death. Maybe he did plan on just that-- I guess it's too bad his rifle didn't function or perhaps it was fortuitous as he would not be alive today had it continued to function. I don't know the answer there.

"So they hand you one of the match M14's that the State Hipower shooters had been using for years (yeah, I know where you got your M14 from) And you decide with all of your Knowledge your gonna take a stone to the sear and "adjust it" to 3-4 lbs. You pack your trigger weight scale with you as well??"

You don't have a damn clue where we got our M14's from, they were brand new in box mouthballed Winchester rack grade M14's from the 60's and still in the damn wood shavings. It was a blast from the past, not some match rifle from a line somewhere. The Army competes with issued weapons (meaning A2's and M4's.) We don't get issued special weapons for competition as we are not part of the USAMTU. The DM I replaced had an M14 that was match grade modified by a guy who did that for the Army and had retired. I took his group out, he showed me how to dissasemble it as [he had been trained and I had not] and duplicated the work-- all you have to do is shorten a set of hooks on the hammer to lighten the pull, and polish the hooks and contact surfaces to smooth it up. It's very simple and makes a huge differance in shootability.


"Yet your the same guy who "Highly recommends" a Airsoft knock off Mount to others' in another thread."

Yeah because I have one and it works great-- it's as solid as any-- a lot of guys are running more fragile ARMS mounts including me-- if we can say an ARMS mount is OK then we can say the far stronger airsoft mount is by default OK TOO.

"Your the worst kind of poser, cause you did a year in Iraq and saw little combat (get your CIB?? I'm guessing not) Now your gonna use that as your base line to quantify your incredible base of knowledge. So now you have a permit to spread any bullshit you want and it will go unchallenged cause you did a "Tour" in Iraq. Which automatically means your an authority on all things Military and all things to do with weapons based on "your" Experience."

I didn't see a lot of combat compared to soldiers I know who fought in Vietnam, but I did get personally shot at on over 30 seperate occaisions and did return fire and at times iniciate contact and did get mortared and rocket attacked more times than I could count. The enemy did try to blow my guys up and did kill a few of them. And we killed some of them. I don't believe the tour in Iraq means anything but that I earned the right not to die and to come back to see all the spoiled people who don't understand what kind of world they live in.

"20 years from now you'll be like the "VietNam" vet who "swears" their M16 was made by mattel and we just have to believe you cause "you " were their.
or the one that Swears that an AK rd will fire out of an M16 chamber cause "Charlie" designed it that way.
Your the same kind guy who'll say "I used a BetaCmag in Iraq and I never had a problem
You'll be telling everyone you were a "sniper" cause you carried an M14 and had it "Customized"

I don't even know how to respond to this garbage. Now you are defaming Vietnam veterans? I didn't have a Beta C-mag in Iraq. I couldn't tell you how it would run. I know someone in the company I replaced had one but I don't know if they actually used it or could answer that.

I was a designated marksman in a company that did not have attached sniper support. We worked in a sniper role but were not official snipers or schooled. The Company that replaced us from the 101st came in with an entire platoon of Recon Scout/Snipers [some of their shooters were schooled and others were not] attached [bolstering their force to more than 50% larger than ours had been], and that should give you an idea of the work we did as we did not have any sniper support for the year we worked in the same AO where the Army felt a platoon of scout snipers were needed.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 2:20:00 PM EDT
Harv24 &Green0,

I would let it go! This neither the place, nor the time to be bashing each other as Vets. Just let it go.

Link Posted: 12/23/2005 2:49:11 PM EDT
It seems this thread graduated from a discussion on match triggers to one involving hair triggers. I agree with pcurtis, let's just step back and realize there are different points of view. No one is going to convince the other as to the right or wrong.

This forum is for all of us to learn from this is not the smart side we should show.
Please?

Link Posted: 12/26/2005 5:24:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/26/2005 5:46:27 AM EDT by lawndartF16]
Can someone please walk me through slow and simple how to use some JP parts/springs in conjunction with the issue trigger?

Also, if I were to lightly hone the contact surfaces, would that adversely affect the life of the trigger job? I have no idea how deep the surface hardening on the issue trigger parts goes into the metal. Can the metal be rehardened by a cyanide process?

What I want to do is optimize trigger performance. Higher headquarters would go bat-shit if I ordered 25 KAC 2-stage FA triggers for our pop-guns. I have more pressing needs for the money anyway. I already have a case of chrome silicon springs and Magpul followers for everyone's magazines (and a full case of new mags to replace any worn and/or defective ones).

Any cosmic trigger engagement surface lubes that don't gum up with fine sand, dust or mud?

Does it make sense to go through and measure all the pin holes in the receivers and instal anti-walk pin assemblies where the holes are worn too large, or have assumed an eliptical shape?

I will personally run a two stage semi-auto trigger, but that is just my habit and preferance.

Time and ammunition supplies will be limited to get the guys up to speed for self defense; good triggers will really help squeeze as much value as possible out of our training time before the next leg of our SWA tours.

Thanks for your input.

lawndart

Link Posted: 12/26/2005 8:02:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/26/2005 8:18:23 AM EDT by Green0]
"Can someone please walk me through slow and simple how to use some JP parts/springs in conjunction with the issue trigger?"
You need to have a bench sander like this:
http://www.coastaltool.com/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/a/delt/sa150.htm?L+coastest+pztz2523ff337a33+1135625365
You will probably need to remove some material from the suface of the disconnectors to rough fit, and some red loctitefopr the ajustment screws. You can use a Dremel but with 25 to install I would not want to be dremeling them. The DVD included with the JP trigger kit details installation and outlines a process by which they set triggers for weapons in need of more dependability than bench/target guns, and I would reccomend doubling that creep for more aggressive disconector engagement. The trigger will still be far better than stock and with a lighter pull and less take up and less overtravel.

"Also, if I were to lightly hone the contact surfaces, would that adversely affect the life of the trigger job? I have no idea how deep the surface hardening on the issue trigger parts goes into the metal. Can the metal be rehardened by a cyanide process?"

I don't know about re-hardening stock parts, but I do believe from everything I have seen, that modifying a stock trigger is a bad idea.

"What I want to do is optimize trigger performance. Higher headquarters would go bat-shit if I ordered 25 KAC 2-stage FA triggers for our pop-guns. I have more pressing needs for the money anyway. I already have a case of chrome silicon springs and Magpul followers for everyone's magazines (and a full case of new mags to replace any worn and/or defective ones)."

If you are on a one year deployment and load new magazines with 28rds and leave them loaded they will last the deployment in good working order assuming you don't drop them and dent feedlips. I would still rather have CS springs but just so you know the stock springs will work fine as long as they are new, and no-one streches them which is VERY BAD and will ruin them.

"Any cosmic trigger engagement surface lubes that don't gum up with fine sand, dust or mud?"

I would say no-- I don't think there is a lube that will produce noticeable results and not attract sand and dust-- you might want to try moly dry-film lube but I don't assume it would produce a tangible result.

"Does it make sense to go through and measure all the pin holes in the receivers and instal anti-walk pin assemblies where the holes are worn too large, or have assumed an eliptical shape?"

I don't think most issued weapons will have dimensional problems due to the fact that they don't generally see enough use-- at any rate the JP I think has the option or comes with oversized pins should you desire to use them. They should correct problems but I don't see the point and haven't used mine- I would rather be able to swap them should an inspection come -- these inspectors come once or twice a year and will check the weapons and if you have an auto trigger they will assume it broken and put a repair order on it as it will fail a std M4 function check- which is a burst group check. Keep the stock pins and you can swap them out in five minutes. -- If you had slave pins made you could install in probably 45 seconds, which will help a lot for the burst parts.


"Time and ammunition supplies will be limited to get the guys up to speed for self defense; good triggers will really help squeeze as much value as possible out of our training time before the next leg of our SWA tours."

Your right they will. Good trigger finger discipline is a must-- guys have to keep trigger fingers out of the wells unless they are firing and safteys on whenever possible, but I assume most units are good with this, and if you are like most units you won't have any problems. The trigger is lighter and that makes it less idiot proof-- joe dumbass can't play with the trigger with the safety off and expect it not to go bang but I don't expect he would anyway.

But yes guys should qualify better and shoot better and faster and confidence in weapons will be increased due to the ease with which shooters can place rounds on target.

The JP is an A1 trigger basically, if you have an M4 or A2 all you need is [the JP kit] and an A1 auto disconector and an A1 hammer with stock spring [I believe you need the hammer but could be wrong]

If you have the time and ammo give your guys a little training firing automatic bursts so they understand that weapons will climb off target and short bursts are key. Unless of course your people have M4's at home in which case I would reccomend a MGI buffer and they could probably use that combo to put down effective automatic suppressing fire if needed. Of course you should stress no more than 4 magazines of auto fire before switching to semi-automatic and conserving ammo as the barrels and gas tubes/rings get hot and your guys probably carry 7-12 magazines and probably don't want to run out of ammo.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 8:22:13 AM EDT
I've got a JP single stage adjustable trigger with speed hammer I'm going to sell. I tried it an prefer the RR 2 stage. I have reworked stock triggers in my other ARs and want the 2 stage in my precision AR for the different "feel".

$80 shipped if you're interested.

Link Posted: 12/26/2005 8:58:05 AM EDT
I've only used the stock Colt and Bushmaster triggers. I used a RRA NM 2 stage trigger and liked it. I sold that RRA lower but I will buy another, some day.

For SHTF, I'll stick with a stock trigger. When someone is shooting at you, the last thing you will think about is, "I wish I had a better trigger in my AR".

Stock triggers work 100% of the time for me.

____________________________




Link Posted: 12/26/2005 11:09:07 AM EDT
While I think a stock trigger is fine for most work, if you are going to use a magnified optic or stainless barrel a new trigger will be necessary to wring 100% out of your rifle. On a pencil barreled carbine, a trigger that was 6 pounds or so and had a proper reset is all that is really required. Of course, some triggers are FAR worse than that, but a G.I. trigger can be armorer fit to 6 pounds and work perfectly.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 1:54:14 PM EDT

The JP is an A1 trigger basically, if you have an M4 or A2 all you need is [the JP kit] and an A1 auto disconector and an A1 hammer with stock spring [I believe you need the hammer but could be wrong]

If you have the time and ammo give your guys a little training firing automatic bursts so they understand that weapons will climb off target and short bursts are key. Unless of course your people have M4's at home in which case I would reccomend a MGI buffer and they could probably use that combo to put down effective automatic suppressing fire if needed. Of course you should stress no more than 4 magazines of auto fire before switching to semi-automatic and conserving ammo as the barrels and gas tubes/rings get hot and your guys probably carry 7-12 magazines and probably don't want to run out of ammo.




I very much appreciate your time and reply. A-2's in the rack right now. I'll work the crew on the fundamentals x 3. This is a reserve outfit of doctors, nurses & medics (FST). It would be nice to get 5-10 of them through gunsite or some such as a team. Thank God they can afford it. It is very nice to see these folks put their nuts on the anvil, and get out in the dirt, "because the job needs doing". My additional duty is to ensure no one gets so much as scratched.

Thanks again,
lawndart
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 2:26:17 PM EDT

This is a reserve outfit of doctors, nurses & medics (FST).


Do not fuck around with the triggers on your rifles unless you want to see a Negligent Discharge from these troops. No offense but that is just asking for trouble. you want to prepare them for Combat. Scrounge up as much ammo as you can and get the on the range. Playing with triggers and "Tuning" them is not the answer. Practice the 4 basic princibles
of sight picture/Sight alignment/trigger press and breath control. Have them dryfire. teach them the different carry positions, show them how to manuever and the 4 safety rules. their are a lot of drills and excercises to teach them and have them learn. Illegally modifying Government property (and that's what you doing unless you have a small arms Amorer MOS) is not the answer to weapons proficiency. Work on Battle drills and react to ambush drills and what to look for in convoys, Work on your METL tasks and learn what's important (and it's not messing with your triggers)

Medical units are notoriously behind the curve in basic marksmenship skills to include handling live weapons. the last thing you want to do is give them hair triggers and turn them loose....
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 9:57:29 PM EDT
Taggage.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 4:56:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bigbore:
There is NO reason a 2 stage "NM style" trigger can not be as reliable/last as long as a standard trigger.

US Rifles with 2 stage triggers in prior military US Service:
98 Krag
Model 1903
Model 1917
Model 1903A3
M1 Garand
M14
(have you ever seen all the pieces in an M1/M14 trigger group?)

That said, the Geissele Trigger will change the way 2 stage triggers are looked at in ARs.





I think that is worth repeating.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 8:10:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 1:13:16 PM EDT by DiabloRT]
What a whiny cunt thread.

Why do you guys have a difficult time sticking question in the topic?

Look at and discuss mechanics and experience with different triggers.

Don't question abilities of the shooter. Or assert that he should use a standard trigger because of this or that. Or relay half baked senarios & military stories.

Why can't the pros & cons of each trigger be discussed without a ton of arguing?



Link Posted: 12/29/2005 9:26:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DiabloRT:
What a whiny cunt thread.

Why do you guys have a difficult time sticking question in the topic?

Look at and discuss mechanics and experience with different triggers.

Don't question abilities of the shooter. Or assert that he should use a standard trigger because of this or that. Or relay half baked senarios & military stories.

Why can the pros & cons of each trigger be discussed without a ton of arguing?






because people need to justify their big money purchases one way or another?

Anyway I have a Geissele I will be trying out in 2-3 days, I will let yall know if it works great or explodes or somewhere in between.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:16:19 PM EDT
RustedAce,


The Geiselle looks like a sweet trigger. The disconnector designed looks better than everything else I have seen.....especially compared to the POS disconnector design on an LMT/Armalite trigger. I was considering the Geiselle myself, before I cheaped out on a $75 RRA.


I am interested in hearing your report
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:34:17 PM EDT
My wife got me the CMC 2-stage trigger and KNS pins for Christmas. It's a huge improvement over my stock trigger. I was actually starting to get cramps in my trigger finger from shooting the stock one so much! (or maybe not enough? ) Ouch!

I was told by a reputable dealer here who build lots and lots of uppers for guys in the sandbox that he has put tens of thousands of rounds downrange with a CMC trigger and it has yet to fail. I trust his judgement as he surely has much more experience than I do.

I don't think you would be disappointed with the CMC. If you search the EE you can find some dealers that have it in stock still...at least they did a week or two ago before Christmas.

The Geissel (sp?) also looks very nice. Wow, is it expensive though.
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