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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - KAC MRE RAS project (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 9/12/2003 7:59:24 PM EDT
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After weeks it came to a conclusion. Now I'm broke, have 3rd quarter estimated taxes coming up on Monday, escrow closing in a week with closing costs and remainder of down payment to pay, what was I thinking! Though this pic is Kisara's upper, mine was torqued the same way with a sock at the end of the muzzle to break up the outline. My vice is on the patio, I don't need nosy neighbors on the beach to see "machine guns", damn liberals.  Before the MRE RAS's M (modular) part, front sight and flash hider went in. I have an abundance of old socks and boxer shorts I use as gun rags   The FF part of the KAC MRE RAS  The extra rail surface comes in handy when mounting the long CQB Solutions sling with the KAC rail sling mount.  Mounting a KAC 300M BUIS, TA01NSN/19S AND a KAC offset Aimpoint mount was a tight fit. Had to shave off a bit on the KAC mount to clear the barrel nut.   And lastly, y'all have seen this before but what the hell.  Thanks to Kisara for helping me out with the installation, and my "pusher" Wes for supplying the parts
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Free, you'll be happy with it. Since the Aimpoint is so light, it hardly adds much weight to it. The only thing is you may have to either remove or get a different backup iron. As I said I had to dremel a bit off the KAC offset mount to clear the barrel nut, there was scarcely enough room for it. I'm using my TA31 on another rifle, the Aimpoint/TA01NSN combo works as well as TA31's BAC, except I have to turn it on, guess I can always leave it on (Thanks new arguy). [img]home.earthlink.net/~whitman/COMBO.JPG[/img] BTW, you'll be very happy with the Vltor stock. Seeing that you don't have a Colt stock and I assume it's not a Colt tube, you best buy the stock with the buffer extension tube from Vltor, as the stock only works with either Colt or milspec extension tubes. Vltor charges very little for it and it's 5 position, don't buy the 4 position Colt at 3 times the cost! |
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I know Wes just put you in the poor house man, but think about trying a Dieter CQD grip man... If you do you'll start looking at the Knights grip like it is a toothpick! [img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid79/pa2150ddd3a5cc1e961672915d0875c40/fb21ccdd.jpg[/img] I've thought about shaving a little off the cantilever mount of the 22M68 mount I have so it will fit over the RAS 2's hump. If I did that I would be able to get the Aimpoint back another notch. The extended riser only cost like $8 or whatever, so its not a big deal. |
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I'd like to get the TD grip when it comes out, the Dieter grip takes up a lot of space on the bottom and puts the hand farther down from the bore. Getting that bike inner tube put on was a pain in the ass! I was thinking about mounting the KAC offset mount backward like you do, it actually looks pretty good that way (asthetics wise). But when I mounted it on the RAS itself, the right way where there's more distance between the ACOG and Aimpoint, it doesn't change the sight picture much, I just like the looks of them closer together. |
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"Can someone please explain the "Aimpoint+Trijicon" scope setup? What can you do with this setup that an expierenced shooter can't do with either scope alone. All I see is extra weight, funky setup, unuseable BUIS. " Obviously Duffy likes to add a $430 device weighing half a pound or more to a rifle just to light the reticle. This provides a red dot so the user can use the "famous" BAC with the NSN ACOG. Of course he has the NSN ACOG because it is the only sight made that will acomidate the Specwargear.com Optima mount. Why the Optima? because the ACOG does not have BAC and at close range the scope without BAC could use the close range alternative. [b]Wait a minute he has allready taken care of this by adding BAC to the ACOG...[/b] and last but not least he has a KAC 300M BUIS in case his ACOG loses zero, and then his backup aimpoint also loses its zero and then he can remove the acog- flip up the sight and continue to fire with a zero. yes that is a back up to a back-up sight..... [b]A little redundant for me It is a very nice rifle I suggest you get rid of the aimpoint that is robbing you of 3 things: light weight $430 and precious light gathering capabilities that give your ACOG it's high dollar retail price.[/b] |
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Well that money is spent and gladly so. Yes it's redundant to the point of extravagant, but the Aimpoint can be detached easily, as is the case with the ACOG. I can: 1. Use all of them in conjunction as the pic shows, getting a BAC like capability at the expense of added bulk (I don't consider weight to be an issue, it doesn't weigh much) 2. Remove the TA01NSN and just use the Aimpoint, it cowitnesses with my irons, 3. Remove the Aimpoint and use the TA01NSN in low light. I might remove the Optima sight from the ACOG, as its role is now fulfilled by the Aimpoint. |
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This Aimpoint + ACOG idea is very new around here. We've only learned about it in the last week or so. A lot of people who wanted CQB capability with the TAO1 series optics have previously mounted Optima's on the top. This was/is a decent fix, but has some of its own issues in my opinion. Fvor this reason, you may see more than a couple people who previously put Optima's on top of the ACOG also use the Aimpoint. Now that we have seen the TAO1+Aimpoint package, I would suspect a lot more people may try it. Clearly it has disdvantages like weight, bulk and the reduction of light gathering ability. But it is also not without its advantages, and remember, the advantages are at least as and maybe even more significant than a little weight. And many of the disadvantages can be overcome by removing either the Aimpiint or ACOG. Which BTW, is very easy to do. |
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Spooge, a TA11 or TA31 will do the job nicely, while they don't have the modularity of the Aimpoint/TA01 setup. I refer to TA11 and TA31 as all-in-one scopes, they're not without shortcomings such as the not-so-precise reticle (debatable, I know), limited viewing angles when using BAC, etc. To be able to swap out either the Aimpoint or ACOG, or use them in tandem has great flexibilities at the expense of added (minor) weight. Take off the ACOG and it's a great CQB setup. Take off the Aimpoint and it's a good short range precision rifle. Leave them both on when carrying the rifle and it can do both, while giving up some of their respective qualities. No free lunch [:)] |
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Someone please come forward and tell me this is a joke. PLEASE! I didnt read a single joke in this whole thread? LOL, then why can't I stop laughing! LOL Whats next, a set of tri-focals? Hey, with a little ingenuity you may also be able to mount an Eotech on the front portion of that MRE RAS. Then you really would have one super-duper setup. Just when you think you've seen it all. LOL I love it when people make a statement like: "(I don't consider weight to be an issue, it doesn't weigh much)" when their rifle already has three gadgets mounted close to the muzzle. Do you guys also collect Swiss Army knives? |
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How does looking through 2 different optics change or effect the zero? Heck, I have a change in zero when I remove my M2 and use my fixed BUIS's (which I zero through the M2). I have to believe that this is exacerbated by adding yet another piece(s) of glass in there. |
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I'd wager all of ya nay sayers haven't looked through a setup like it. How much does an Aimpoint ML2 weigh? How about the KAC offset mount? No I don't consider it an issue, never said it wouldn't be so for you. I'd also bet that the moment a photo from Afganistan or Iraq shows up with a similar setup your views would change as fast as you dismissed it out of hand. As I said I had experimented something in the same concept but with a Reflex II and found it unsatifactory, that was last year. This setup happens to work for me. |
| I do consulting for law firms. This idea wasn't brought forth by me or new arguy, but someone at KAC. I think often they experiment with ideas and produce prototypes that don't hit the market, like the TA01NSN Optima combination but got picked up by those that were in search of a solution but found none to be as effective themselves. |
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Duf's right, he didnt come up with this idea, and neither did I. I did see it first on Jay's rifle from Knights Armament. However, he told me he didnt come up with it either. If I recall correctly, a guy actually using this set up special forces told him about it. Guys, just remember; [b][i]"If its stupid, but it works, it isnt stupid."[/b][/i] |
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VA, this topic is actually about a Knights MRE, but turned into an ACOG and Aimpoint thread. I thought that would make both of us happy! Look, the bottom line isnt who said it or where it came from is it? The bottom line is does it work? If thats what people are interested in, all I can say is, so far, yeah. It works pretty dang well. The rifle I did this to sits in a shop as a display gun most of the time. Almost everyone who sees this asks what the heck that is all about. Then they let them see what it looks like without the Aimpoint, and then with the Aimpoint. The reply after turning the Aimpoint on is always "Wow!" Always. This is, an intermediate set up somewhere between an Aimpoint and a TA31. This system has its disadvantages. So do the Aimpoint and TA31. Strange thing with this set up is it answers almost all the disadvantages with the Aimpoint and the TA31. Aside from weight and bulk, what are your major issues with this set up? Have you tried one? Or are you just a chronic complainer? |
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"chronic complainer" - I think thats funny. If asking questions makes me a complainer to you- so be it. Maybe its just me, but it seems like its just another attempt to hang one more thing off their M4. Aimpoint+Trijicon+Optima+unuseable BUIS, no I have not tried it. |
| As I recall, Duff already said he was thinking of removing the Optima. The Optima was added to the ACOG before anyone really knew or thought to try the Aimpoint in front of the ACOG. And yeah, between this and the "why cant we talk about Aimpoints" thread, it did seem to me like you were doing a little bit of complaining without a whole lot to offer as an alternative. |
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As one of the first guy to own a MRE, I am glad this forend is finally catching on. I have consider this and the SIR #58 for the mid lenght as the best rail system on the market so far. of course all judgement is withheld until the URX is released. I am glad to see more brother getting on the MRE bandwagon. Good job Duffy. |
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Sure the BUIS is unusable when the ACOG is in place, if it were it wouldn't be a backup sight as it'd be in the way of the scope, I don't think an LMT rear sight would have worked with an ACOG setup. As my defender new arguy said, it does work very well with its corresponding drawbacks. In my opinion it's no more absurd than a night vision scope behind an Aimpoint or EOTech, the idea of combining optics for combined utility is neither new nor stupid. Even if the gentleman didn't work for KAC I would have wanted to follow his example, and new arguy's endorsement of it by itself would convince me it's a great idea. SMG I wanted the MRE after I saw yours, thought it was an add-on component and asked Wes about it, he set me straight right quick [:)] |
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Quoted: .... I plan on building my next rifle up with a MRE. Well, I wasn't planning on it until I read this thread. Just so happens there was one for sale in the EE. After decicding to put it on my perfectly good 6920 upper: [img]http://photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?sAccountUnq=6430&iGalleryUnq=457&iImageUnq=17793[/img] This is not a project for the first timer if you are taking a factory upper apart. Much swearing and tool breaking is involved. My DPMS combo wrench shattered in the process, and I had to finish with a pipe wrench adapter: [img]http://photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?sAccountUnq=6430&iGalleryUnq=457&iImageUnq=17813[/img] But the finished product was worth the effort: [img]http://photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?sAccountUnq=6430&iGalleryUnq=457&iImageUnq=17814[/img] With light and TA31: [img]http://photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?sAccountUnq=6430&iGalleryUnq=457&iImageUnq=17815[/img] With M900: [img]http://photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?sAccountUnq=6430&iGalleryUnq=457&iImageUnq=17816[/img] Made a quick trip to the range and sighted it in. Runs fine, handles great. I have not decided on what light will end up on this one, or whether I will keep the single point sling with this set up, but it will be more fun experimenting. Aftr returning home, one of these was called for: [img]http://photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?sAccountUnq=6430&iGalleryUnq=457&iImageUnq=17817[/img] |
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Nice work BSBG! [:d] The DPMS wrench looks flimsy, it has only 2 nipple/stud thingies whereas most armoror's wrenchs have 3, and it looks very thin. Did you use the studs side to disassemble the factory upper? My wrench has two sides, one for the FF handguards (3 studs) and the other for the standard barrel nut (bunch of lugs to have a postive purchase on the nut) With a vice and proper tools, and hopefully another set of eyes and hands (thanks again Kisara!), it's not too difficult and is fun and satisfying. I've assembled a few uppers, the part that usually requires finer adjustment is alignment of barrel nut to allow the gas tube through to go in true center. |
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I have done a few uppers in my time, and up to this point the DPMS has been fine. It does only have the two pins, but it also has the series of lugs on the other side as well. Another pic [url=http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=171190]here[/url]. A vice and Peace River action block were heavily involved, as were a whole bunch of punches, some now bent. I used the vice to start the front sight pins out, otherwise I'd still be hammering [;)]. I did have to have my wife's help reinstalling the front sight. She didn't even ask "why are you doing this?" as she knows I am addicted [8D] Getting the gas tube hole alignment perfect is the key to it all. I used a piece of an old tube cut off just for that purpose. Overall, it didn't take that long, maybe a little over an hour, not a barrel of fun but the end result is worth it... |
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Quoted: "In my opinion it's no more absurd than a night vision scope behind an Aimpoint or EOTech." Funny thing is, that setup actually serves a usefull purpose. I do not consider the ability to spot + hit targets at night to be absurd. Quoted: "and new arguy's endorsement of it by itself would convince me it's a great idea" What? Quoted: "How does looking through 2 different optics change or effect the zero?" I'm still waiting for the "experts" to answer this one? Orginally posted by Spooge5150: "I'd also bet that the moment a photo from Afganistan or Iraq shows up with a similar setup your views would change as fast as you dismissed it out of hand." I've seen thousands of pictures from Afghanistan + Iraq. Somehow it seems our guys are "getting by" with just one daylight scope. |
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If you havent tried the Acog/Aimpoint setup first hand, then you should. It IS a great idea. If you have a problem with the additional weight of an Aimpoint, well, maybe you should be looking into chipmunk .22's instead of AR's. [rolleyes] Duffy, OUTSTANDING rifle. |
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Thanks Hawkeye [:)] If nothing else, the disagreement from other members has taught me to be open minded on things I haven't seen or tried first hand. They do have valid arguments, but as I said there's no free lunch. It's only a matter of what you're willing to give up in order to gain. |
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I think the Aimpoint inline with the TA01NSN is a solution in search of a problem - buy a TA31 and get ride of both... The Optima/DR Optic fix is the best option (and a nec. one IMHO) for operation guns with the TA01NSN. For those of us tht carry our rifles a lot more than shoot them (esp in the CF...) the added weight/bulk of the M2 Aimpoint is not needed. I had a chance to observe a LE Tac guy with a Mk12 Mod1 type SPR using a Leupold M1LR and a side mounted EOETCH 551 - he could not use the DR Optic/Optima on the scope mount due to the high turrets and needed (in his mind at least) a CCO as well. |
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Quoted: Thanks for the advise Hawkeye. I always get my shooting tips from a member of the "Lake City Delta force". Especially one that finishes 12th out of 22 entries at your last shoot. Did you use your .22 for that vivid display of your credentials? I dont remember giving you any advise? Lake City Delta Force? Huh? [>:/] As for my placing in the last shoot, well, I wasnt exactly trying real hard that day. On top of not feeling well, I had a long hard week at work, so I just wanted to relax a little. Do you have a problem with that? As far as credentials, I have never displayed any. Should you like to see them though, I will have them scanned and posted. Didnt know I had to do that around here. Learn something new every day I guess. If that is the case, then I will promoptly remove myself. Wouldnt want to burden someone of your obvious higher level of intelligence and experience with my lowly bit of input.[hail2] I do find it flattering though that you would be checking up on how I did over on the FL boards though. [:I] I will try to do better next time so as to not dissappoint you.[;)] Back on topic, Duffy, you are correct. Open mindedness is a must. Check out and try as much and as many different things as you can, and then piece together what works best for you. At least thats what I try to do. Heck, Iron sights alone work just fine in a fight, but that doesnt mean something else wont work better. Doesnt mean what works for me is right for the next guy either. |
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Quoted: Thanks for the advise Hawkeye. I always get my shooting tips from a member of the "Lake City Delta force". Especially one that finishes 12th out of 22 entries at your last shoot. Did you use your .22 for that vivid display of your credentials? I'm easily within the top 3 shooters at FDCC and I finished 15. What's your point? Sometimes it's about tactics not speed but I'm sure you already knew that... Dirk |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - KAC MRE RAS project (Page 1 of 2)
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