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Posted: 6/24/2003 12:58:47 PM EDT
I just returned from the Police and Security Expo in Atlantic City, NJ. An H&K rep stated that I should look for an H&K "M4" within twelve (12) months. The only other info he shared was that it would have a gas piston set-up.

Also got to handle the new H&K AR magazines. They are sweet!

Anyone hear anything different?

TIA,

Mike
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 1:08:30 PM EDT
pics ? PICS ?? GOOD GOD MAN, YOU CAN'T JUST POST THIS AND NOT HAVE PICS !!! [:D] Tell me about the mags, what are they made of ? floorplate ? follower ? how many rounds ?
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 1:25:47 PM EDT
Heard many rumors of this on the HKpro forum. I'm not holding my breath anymore, but will be thrilled to see one. Mags sound cool.
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 1:26:01 PM EDT
About two or three months ago, there was mention on the forum about an East Coast company that's working on the M4 upper with HK. Does anyone remember the Company or the ARForum thread? LS
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 2:04:33 PM EDT
ATK is the OICW contractor, also approached with the Tavor and I believe involved with the upper you are talking about... It is in response to the PMOD, uses an AR18 gas system. Have heard mixed things about it...
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 2:10:25 PM EDT
I bet it comes to market as fast as the Tavor and the Trijicon Tri power.... How many times have we heard this? COMING OUT NEXT YEAR!!!! [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 4:10:57 PM EDT
Sorry, no pics. The mags were mentioned in another post w/ pics. Mike
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 6:38:27 PM EDT
GAS PISTON? WHY? Their is a reason the Ar-15 is quiet with suppressors.... It doesn't have a gas piston. It isn't broken but people are always trying to fix it.
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 8:41:52 PM EDT
H&K mag pics can be found [url=www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=17&t=148623]Here[/url]
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 4:33:38 AM EDT
I have seen a few of the mystic beasts from H&K and last time I talked to one of their reps. they were testing it-I like the piston setup but I am not 100% until it has some more testing done. The mags are awesome a little heavier but don't tip followers like the other junk. Very good design IMHO
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 11:43:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By KMFDM: I have seen a few of the mystic beasts from H&K and last time I talked to one of their reps. they were testing it-I like the piston setup but I am not 100% until it has some more testing done. The mags are awesome a little heavier but don't tip followers like the other junk. Very good design IMHO
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What was the general appearance, compared to the AR?
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 10:02:29 AM EDT
The model I handled was cosmetically the same-The gas piston I was not allowed to dissasemble for proprietary reasons. And it had the same feel and forearm-at first I did not ralize it was a gas piston design until a closer look.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 2:58:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By KMFDM: The model I handled was cosmetically the same-The gas piston I was not allowed to dissasemble for proprietary reasons. And it had the same feel and forearm-at first I did not ralize it was a gas piston design until a closer look.
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Interesting that they could fit a piston underneath the handguard. Then again, the handguard might have been enlarged to accomodate the assembly. I always prefer folding front sights, so I hope they have some options in that vein. It'd also be nice to be able to fit a SIR onto such a unit, but I doubt that's a possibility. BTW - did H&K reveal whether it uses the telestock & buffer, or if the op rod uses a captive spring?
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 4:13:59 PM EDT
I wonder if it can still be sub MOA accurate. Hmmm... who will win the next SOPMOD upper revision Knight's with the new barrel extension and bolt or HK? Very interesting...
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 4:19:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DevL: I wonder if it can still be sub MOA accurate. Hmmm... who will win the next SOPMOD upper revision Knight's with the new barrel extension and bolt or HK? Very interesting...
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HK. They're a bigger corporation and they have the ability to grease plams better then Knight. Reed is to cheap. ls
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 5:10:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Master_Blaster:
Originally Posted By KMFDM: The model I handled was cosmetically the same-The gas piston I was not allowed to dissasemble for proprietary reasons. And it had the same feel and forearm-at first I did not ralize it was a gas piston design until a closer look.
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Interesting that they could fit a piston underneath the handguard. Then again, the handguard might have been enlarged to accomodate the assembly. I always prefer folding front sights, so I hope they have some options in that vein. It'd also be nice to be able to fit a SIR onto such a unit, but I doubt that's a possibility. BTW - did H&K reveal whether it uses the telestock & buffer, or if the op rod uses a captive spring?
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Maybe that's why it's an M4, the oval handguards are bigger?
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 6:00:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LordStoner:
Originally Posted By DevL: I wonder if it can still be sub MOA accurate. Hmmm... who will win the next SOPMOD upper revision Knight's with the new barrel extension and bolt or HK? Very interesting...
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HK. They're a bigger corporation and they have the ability to grease plams better then Knight. Reed is to cheap. I dunno I hear about Reed Knight throwing beach house parties and such and I hear he makes his living greasing palms... Oh well, only time will tell. ls
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Link Posted: 6/27/2003 6:24:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/27/2003 6:24:57 AM EDT by LordStoner]
Originally Posted By KMFDM: The model I handled was cosmetically the same-The gas piston I was not allowed to dissasemble for proprietary reasons. And it had the same feel and forearm-at first I did not ralize it was a gas piston design until a closer look.
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Was the upper and lower receiver the same configuration as current issue? What about the rest of the parts, were they standard issue items or special HK stuff? ls
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 7:15:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DevL: Hmmm... who will win the next SOPMOD upper revision Knight's with the new barrel extension and bolt or HK? Very interesting...
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DevL - got any more info or a link on the Knight's design?
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 7:31:03 AM EDT
Knight's Has the proprietary (and pattented) E3 bolt design. The bolt lugs has rounded edges and a thicker web. There is extractor with the retention/pivot at the point of balance and two springs. Coldblue or Havoc can give you lowdown, I am just responding to what I have seen. I would bet on KAC, I think they have great products, H&K on the other hand has been off designing spaceguns for the last little while. -Kevin
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 8:25:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By KevinB: Knight's Has the proprietary (and pattented) E3 bolt design. The bolt lugs has rounded edges and a thicker web. There is extractor with the retention/pivot at the point of balance and two springs.
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I wonder what's patented or is it patent pending? The rounded lug idea is an old idea and now public domain. The double spring idea is interesting. ls
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 10:28:36 AM EDT
It was pending SHOT - it is now patented.
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 10:06:35 AM EDT
What I saw and talked to the rep about he said it was compatible for the most part-but as for the lowdown on what parts exactly I cannot say for sure. I think the rounded lug design is no better than anything else out there, without having seen Knights example I cannot say though-Does it look like the profesional ordnance design?????
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 4:00:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By KMFDM: What I saw and talked to the rep about he said it was compatible for the most part-but as for the lowdown on what parts exactly I cannot say for sure. I think the rounded lug design is no better than anything else out there, without having seen Knights example I cannot say though-Does it look like the profesional ordnance design?????
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There was a company in Longmont, CO, RND Manufacturing that use to make AR type gun that fired .308 Win and .243 Win, and they also made one gun to shoot .338 Lapua. The lug design was rounded to ease manufacturing. They were able to machine the lugs in the barrel extension instead of using a broach. Broaches are very expensive. Either way, that was the first time I ever saw a rounded lug design. Pro Ord came out with there gun a few years later. I look forward in seeing the HK system. ls
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 4:58:52 PM EDT
Forgive my ignorance, but other than the ease of manufacturing, what benefit is there to the rounded lug for weapon performance? I think I have a pretty good idea of what these might look like, but does anyone have a pic? TIA
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 3:54:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Corey: Forgive my ignorance, but other than the ease of manufacturing, what benefit is there to the rounded lug for weapon performance? TIA
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Besides their increased cross-sectional area for additional strength, they no longer have the "square" corners of the original AR bolts which tend to propagate cracks. In addition, the new rounded lugs are not easier to manufacture. ColdBlue sends...
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 7:52:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DevL: Hmmm... who will win the next SOPMOD upper revision
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I am pretty sure that this is in responce to the PMOD request
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 6:39:36 PM EDT
Colt played around with gas pistons years ago. pic from [b] THE BLACK RIFLE[/b] [img]http://www.hunt101.com/img/050171.JPG[/img]
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 6:52:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By coldblue:
Originally Posted By Corey: Forgive my ignorance, but other than the ease of manufacturing, what benefit is there to the rounded lug for weapon performance? TIA
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Besides their increased cross-sectional area for additional strength, they no longer have the "square" corners of the original AR bolts which tend to propagate cracks. In addition, the new rounded lugs are not easier to manufacture. ColdBlue sends...
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Thanks for the info and correction. Corey
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 7:39:59 PM EDT
Derek, The gun you show in the picture was originally called "M16A2". Of coarse, the name didn't stick. Those at the fact called it the "ARAK". According to those that were around during the development days say it was the best and most reliable AR ever made by the Colt factory. The ARAK is more of an AK47, with it's piston connected to the bolt carrier. Everyone else seems to be working with the "short-stroke" piston configuration. ls
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 4:16:30 PM EDT
Given its flexibility, I have to wonder why the mil. doesn't just go w/ the Shrike system as a replacement upper. The combination rifle/SAW functionality is impressive. I suppose its quick-change bbl. might reduce accuracy, but by how much, if at all? Reliability seems good so far. Then again, Ares Defense probably doesn't have the mfg. capacity & deep pockets needed to grease the requisite palms.
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 7:02:05 PM EDT
Weight, Accuarcy, Reliability, Noise... Beltfeds are nice especially if there is a multitude of tgts. But don't try to make them into something they are not.
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 9:32:01 PM EDT
I'm not totally sold on the Shrike system yet. I not a fan on the way it's designed. With all the recent developments of beltfeds, why would Ares use a feed device in the top cover? Ancient history and problem-matic. The best way is to have a feed arm, under the belt, similar to that of the Stoner 86 LMG. Now that's a Rolls Royce. Will the Shrike ever be delivered? If so, will it work? Only time will tell. ls
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 1:07:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2003 3:23:45 PM EDT by Not_A_Llama]
There are already a couple gas-piston design M16 derivatives out there.. off the top of my head, the Taiwanese T65K2 is a gas piston design, with the only notable external difference being the handguards... [img]http://top-quark.com/forums/T65K2-c.jpg[/img] From: http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Camp/3592/CSF_T65K2carbine.htm Image now hosted on my own server
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 6:45:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2003 6:46:37 AM EDT by KMFDM]
I like the Taiwanese rifle it seems from the little that I have shot one it was very nice-It worked fine with the 2000 rounds that we ran through it in all modes of fire. It seems to work well with U.S. mags. If memory serves the gas piston arrangement in the G-36 is similiar (I've had them both apart but never both in the same place at the same time so I could be mistaken). It would not surprise me if the new M4 system were similar to the revamped SA-80/AR 180 either.
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 7:53:58 AM EDT
The Taiwanese gun has an AR18 action in an M16 form factor.. My cousin, who is in the Taiwan Marines, says he likes the Taiwanese rifle better, on account of its better reliability and ease of cleaning. His impression of reliability may be because he previously used an old Colt Commando, though. Where did you get the opportunity to fire one, KMFDM?
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 10:38:10 AM EDT
I got to play with a T65 about 10 years ago. Neat, but crude weapon. It would be easy to make an Upper conversion for a AR lower. BTW, I also liked the shape of the stock, with it's clubfoot shape. ls
Link Posted: 7/4/2003 5:56:51 AM EDT
I get to work on and shoot some interesting weapons from time to time.
Link Posted: 7/4/2003 6:27:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By KMFDM: I get to work on and shoot some interesting weapons from time to time.
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It sounds like we do similar work.
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 3:31:57 AM EDT
Quite Possible there Lord S.
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