AR Sponsor
Posted: 2/8/2003 12:51:17 PM EDT
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I am wondering, if i bought an M4 profile bushy, wouldnt that be the same as buying a lightweight barrel? I want an HBAR but like the M4 profile, however, i cant convince myself that it will last as long as an HBAR bushy just cause of that nitch where the M203 should go, and it being lightweight under the handguards. Anyone have any advice or thoughts on how long an M4 profile bushy would last compared to a real HBAR from bushy ? |
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I'm somewhat at the same dilemna right now, as I'm only 2 days away from ordering my first Bushmaster rifle. I'm looking to get a 16" barrel, but am learning towards the HBAR for sturdiness. I've handled the 16" HBAR and it just "feels right" to me. I have not, however, handeled the 16" M4 barrel. I'd think that just due to the design, it wouldn't last nearly as long or hold up nearly as well as the HBAR design (or lack of design). Just my $.02 -Jim |
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I guess the heavier barrel would last longer as a pry bar, but the rifling is the same on the inside no matter what the outside diameter might be. Do you honestly think you're going to be rougher on the barrel than the US military is on their full-auto weapons that use the exact same barrel? |
| bushmaster says the heavy barrel lasts longer.and most of the marine corp m16s ive handled where junk.and ive ran across more then a few that had slightly bent barrels.but I think bushmasyer means they will last longer because they heat up slower and dissipitate heat quicker. |
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Quoted: I guess the heavier barrel would last longer as a pry bar, but the rifling is the same on the inside no matter what the outside diameter might be. Do you honestly think you're going to be rougher on the barrel than the US military is on their full-auto weapons that use the exact same barrel? The U.S. Army just added 4 ounces to the barrels of their M4A1's, FWIW. |
| Ah come on man...do you really think a HBAR AR will outlast an M4 AR or vise versa? It's a firearm, treat it like one and it will outlast the average citizen's lifetime (unless you're able to get a Class III weapon.) I've already had more than 10k rounds through my Colt A2 profiled barrel, and last checked, no throat erosion whatsoever. Yes, the barrel's chamber throat will most likely to be "out-of-spec" first before anything else. |
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bushmaster says the heavy barrel lasts longer. Bushmaster is trying to sell you something, which should raise all kinds of warning flags. All barrels start from the same barrel blanks, the thinner barrels just spend more time on the lathe. More time on a lathe means higher manufacturing costs and lower profit. and most of the marine corp m16s ive handled where junk Pop quiz. Most service rifles junked up because: A. They have thin barrels. B. They get dragged through the mud, thrown in the back of trucks, dropped in the sand, etc., unlike personally owned weapons that are usually just fired at the range. C. "Mad Minutes", which don't apply to semi-auto rifles. D. Both B and C. A quality, chrome lined barrel on a semi-atuo rifle will last much longer than you or I ever will. |
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Quoted: The U.S. Army just added 4 ounces to the barrels of their M4A1's, FWIW. They are putting it on the full-auto A1s, but don't see a reason to put them on the regular M4s that only fire bursts. That should tell you something, especially since we're talking about semi-auto weapons. |
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If you plan to bumpfire several mags worth of ammo in a row everytime you hit the range, get the HBAR. Of course, you'll still wear it out, and you won't be able to hit anything doing the bump, but, hey, oh well. If you plan on using semi-auto aimed fire (even fast aimed fire), the standard M4 barrel will perform just as well and last just as long as the HBAR. It just won't tire you out or slow you down as much. -Troy |
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Hoplophile and Troy, I really have a hard time imagining how a 16" HBAR barrel will tire anyone out that much faster than one using a 16" M4-profile barrel. It's not like the difference in weight is much more than the difference between a loaded and unloaded 30rd Magazine - if even at all. I could see using a 16" M4-Type barrel on an AR for my fiance or my mom to shoot and tote around. They are not used to using firearms, so the decreased weight of the M4-type barrel may help for them to endure the agony of using a rifle. But the difference in weight of HBAR vs. M4 barrels should be *negligible* to any man or woman of average build and strength that is accustomed to using a rifle. I'm not dissing the M4-type barrel at all. However, I AM stating that claiming the M4 to be superior over the HBAR for it's slightly less weight is really subjective. Bottom line, I would prefer the 16" HBAR over the M4 or any lightweight barrel. The differences in weight is negligible to me, and I can handle either just as fast. The heavier the barrel, the more metal there is to stabilize the bullet coming out of it. It's not that difficult to understand. -Jim |
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I am 6'2" 230 lbs and bench 275 for reps. The HB is slower and wears me out after prolonged shooting. You must truly be a monster-ironman if it does not wear you out. I think anyone who says the heavier barrels dont wear them out have either not done a lot of shooting with their rifles or have not shot a LW barrel to compare it to. |
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I would be most interested if someone here could do a weight comparison of both the HBAR and the M4-profile barrel in rifles that were fully loaded and fully unloaded with 30-round magazines. I'm willing to guess that the 16" M4-profile rifle with accessories and a fully loaded magazine actually weighs *MORE* than a 16" HBAR rifle with the exact same accessories that is unloaded. If my guess is correct, that means that for all you guys that prefer the M4 weight, the weight difference on YOUR rifle between a fully-loaded and fully-unloaded magazine is enough to alter your own performance and manueverability in a course. If this is the case, you need to train more. This sort of weight difference should not be a factor. [b]Have you heard of the Placebo Effect?[/b] Whether or not I'm correct about the weight issues above, I think this is a classic example of the Placebo Effect. You guys are making yourself think, "My 16" M-4 Barrel is lighter. My Rifle is lighter. I will perform much better than if I were using a 16" HBAR." And you do, but not necessarily because your barrel is lighter. But because you make yourself think that you can move faster and endure more shouldering and moving with your rifle with M4 barrel. -Jim |
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A 16" HB weighs more than an M4 profile with all the equipment on the rifle. I remove dead weight from my rifle if I can. If its going to slow me down it had better be functional weight and not just useless steel like a HB. Some people like slow, heavy cars. Some people like fast, light cars. Some people want a car to be as not-slow as possible but they like lots of features so the get a lot of features in a light car and its no longer as fast. What is wrong with limiting the performance decrease? |
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Quoted: I would be most interested if someone here could do a weight comparison of both the HBAR and the M4-profile barrel in rifles that were fully loaded and fully unloaded with 30-round magazines. I'm willing to guess that the 16" M4-profile rifle with accessories and a fully loaded magazine actually weighs *MORE* than a 16" HBAR rifle with the exact same accessories that is unloaded. If my guess is correct, that means that for all you guys that prefer the M4 weight, the weight difference on YOUR rifle between a fully-loaded and fully-unloaded magazine is enough to alter your own performance and manueverability in a course. If this is the case, you need to train more. This sort of weight difference should not be a factor. [b]Have you heard of the Placebo Effect?[/b] Whether or not I'm correct about the weight issues above, I think this is a classic example of the Placebo Effect. You guys are making yourself think, "My 16" M-4 Barrel is lighter. My Rifle is lighter. I will perform much better than if I were using a 16" HBAR." And you do, but not necessarily because your barrel is lighter. But because you make yourself think that you can move faster and endure more shouldering and moving with your rifle with M4 barrel. -Jim In my case it's exactly the reverse. I do much better with a 16" HBAR than with m4 or lighter profiles or 14.5" weapons. See also: [url=http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=149745&w=myTopicPop]The discussion on what makes the best carbine.[/url] |
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Devl said: -------------------------------------------- A 16" HB weighs more than an M4 profile with all the equipment on the rifle. I remove dead weight from my rifle if I can. If its going to slow me down it had better be functional weight and not just useless steel like a HB. -------------------------------------------- Devl, this is a subjective assumption. You assume that the extra weight on the HBAR is not functional and serves no additional purpose than just to "slow you down". However, the extra weight *does* in fact do something to help you, your own physical condition aside. The additional amount of metal on the barrel helps the barrel to stabilize the bullet even moreso before the bullet exits the barrel. If you doubt this, just take a look at any long-range 24" varmint rifle. They usually make these rifle with HBAR barrels not because they save more money by not having to shave metal from the barrel, but by the fact that the extra metal actually helps to stabilize the bullet. This is not a difficult concept to accept. It's simple physics even the less educated man could comprehend. [b]What does this all mean? The extra weight on the HBAR 16" will physically improve the stability of the bullet exiting it.[/b] Lets take a look at the only 2 real facts from credible sources that have been listed in this topic so far. 1) The U.S. Army has decided to increase the weight of the barrels in their M4A1's by up to an additional 4 ounces. 2) Bushmaster, the dominant manufacturer of fine ARs according to the recent AR-15 poll, has stated that the HBAR lasts longer because they heat up slower and dissipate heat faster. --- It's already been established that the U.S. Army is increasing the weight of their M4 barrels because they fire their M4s in fully-automatic mode and that the HBAR is not necessarily needed for a semi-automatic rifle. Since when has the U.S. Army made a decision in their small arms that we, as firearms connoiseurs weren't interested in? Even if some of us disagree with decisions our military makes towards their weapons, we are still every bit as intrigued by it. What's this all mean? [b]If the U.S. Army is considering putting more weight on their M4 Barrels, you bet your rear I'm going to want to know exactly why, and will take a long hard look at adopting the decision they took as well, even if I don't have a Class III weapon nor fire it 2000-3500 times per week. Why, you ask? Because I can.[/b] Is there anything wrong with this? Not at all. The second fact regarding Bushmaster speaks for itself. Someone claimed that Bushmaster is trying to promote their HBAR barrels to cut costs in actual manufacturing. "Less time on the lathe = less money involved in production." While there may be some truth to this, if Bushmaster says that their HBAR barrels last longer, heat up slower and dissipate heat quicker, I'm going to have to believe them. After all, they do make the majority of all AR-15s owned by civilians on the market. Facts aside, I think that everyone should choose the barrel of their choice based on how it functions for them, and not what everyone else says about them. I personally prefer the HBAR just because it balances better on a 16" for me, and it gives me an extra sense of stability and security. Could it be a result of Placebo-Effect that I shoot better and more accurately with HBARs? Sure, but it's also physics as well. -Jim |
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Jim lets take a look at that statment: The U.S. Army has decided to increase the weight of the barrels in their M4A1's by up to an additional 4 ounces This addition was to the M4A1s - not the M4s. As you are aware the M4A1s are a specialty item and are only used by the Special Forces. By far the vast majority of the M4s out there use the standard weight barrel. Why the M4A1 and not all M4s? It has to do with the M4A1 being the 'Full Auto' version of the carbine (as opposed to burst). They are looking at preventing 'burn out' of barrels that are often used for full-auto fire. If there was a major advantage in life for semi-auto & burst fire don't you think they would be having ALL M4s upgraded - or at least change the specs so the newly purchased ones would have the HBAR? If your not shooting full-auto there is no real improvement. |
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The additional amount of metal on the barrel helps the barrel to stabilize the bullet even moreso before the bullet exits the barrel. If you doubt this, just take a look at any long-range 24" varmint rifle. They usually make these rifle with HBAR barrels not because they save more money by not having to shave metal from the barrel, but by the fact that the extra metal actually helps to stabilize the bullet. |
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Quoted: Attend a weekend long 600-1000 round shooting course. It'll improve your shooting skills and make a lightweight barrel believer out of you. -- Chuck I attended an offensive carbine class in late December using a 16" HBAR pre-ban Bushmaster. We shot just over 800 rounds in two days. I never had a problem shouldering the rifle, and my arms where not tired after the first or second day. What was tired was my back from carrying the LBV. I need to wear it more often to better adjust to the weight. I was using the 16"HBAR because when I bought that upper 16" m4 profile barrels where not available. When carrying a rifle, and wearing a lot of gear I think the weight savings between the M4 and HBAR barrel profiles might be more advantages. If someone intends to add lights, optics, and other items to the front of an AR shaving a pound off of the front end make a lot of sense. The only advantage that the HBAR offers over the M4 profile barrel is increased barrel life in full auto fire. In am currently testing to verify that there is no difference in semi-auto. The Azalin |
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Your concepts of the HB equating to better accuracy are flawed. Yes you could explain it to a simple man to understand but the real world results are quite contrary to your conjecture. What applies to match grade target barrels does not apply to mil-spec chromed lined AR barrels. These barrels are so NOT accurate to begin with the minutia of accuracy which applies to that extra .1 or .2 inch improvement in accuracy for a target gun does not have a pronounced effect on the milspec rifle's accuracy. HB is not more accurate than A2 profile. Many members here have had barrels contoured by Kurt Wala and consistently reported NO CHANGE in accuracy after they went to the lathe. A heavier object is slower to move. A little heavier is a little slower. The heavier a weapon weighs the faster it will wear you out. Those are the simple facts. You can say that the added weight FEELS good or even it reduces muzzle flip which is true or even that a nose heavy gun is what YOU are used to. The fact remains almost all of the M4 and LW barrel owners started out with a 16" or 20" HBAR and realized they wanted something faster and lighter from experience, myself included. The weight comes off the front of the rifle which helps the center of balance. Most people that pick up a Stery Aug feel its lighter than an M4 because of where the weight is even though its a couple of pounds heavier. If you want less muzzle flip or like the feel of a HB by all means use it just dont try to post statements about how it "lasts longer" (unless you are talking time to cook off) or its "more accurate" or its "not any slower" because those statements are just not true and there are lots of newbies who are coming here for factual information to base their purchase selection on. |
| I like HBAR's because they don't move around a lot, either when I'm aiming or when I'm shooting. I also know that after a few mags, taking my time, the barrel will be hot enough to burn my skin. I have seen burns from barrels. I have held rifles on which the single heat shield handgaurds were getting hot after a few mags. I would rather have a heavy barrel than a lighter one because I know that if I ever fired 6 or 7 mags in a row, I would start having problems. |
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MikeL: Varmint rifles are heavy barrels because they take longer to heat up and thus maintain their accuracy longer into an extended shooting session. And in that application the extra weight is a non-issue because they're shooting off a bench. In a cold barrel, the extra weight does nothing for accuracy. ---------------------------------------------- Does the same concept not apply to 16" carbines as well? According to your concept, the more prolonged gunfire being shot from a rifle, the less accurate the rifle is, due to heating of the barrel. The heavier the barrel profile, the longer it takes to heat up, and the faster the heat dissipates. According to this, in an extended shooting session, a 16" HBAR barrel will hold to be more accurate than a 16" M4 barrel after both start heating up. The M4 barrel will heat up faster and lose its accuracy in an extended shooting session faster than a HBAR barrel would. By the way, do you know what the difference in weight is between the HBAR and the M4 barrel? [b]Bushmaster A3 16" HBAR rifle weighs 6.7 lbs.[/b] [url]http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/pcwa3s16.asp[/url] [b]Bushmaster M4 with 14.5" Barrel with Comp (16" Total) weighs 6.59 lbs.[/b] [url]http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/pcwa2x14m4my.asp[/url] The difference is a whopping .11 lbs. The M4 even has a lighter fixed-telestock, and only 14.5" barrel opposed to 16" barrel, where as the 16" A3 HBAR rifle was probably weighed without the carry-handle. Either way, the M4 is still only .11 lbs lighter than the 16" HBAR A3. Guess what? A fully loaded 30-rd magazine weighs more than that, ALOT more. I don't have a scale with me at the moment, but I'm fairly sure that a fully loaded 30-round mag of 5.56 weighs at least a few lbs. |
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DevL stated: Many members here have had barrels contoured by Kurt Wala and consistently reported NO CHANGE in accuracy after they went to the lathe. -------- Accuracy or precision? You do realize that there is a big difference. See above post regarding barrel heating up and affecting accuracy. Heat makes metal expand. The more a barrel is heated, the less precision it will have. The heavier a barrel is, the longer it will take to heat up and lose its precision. Neither light nor heavy barrel will lose its accuracy very much, but the precision will be worse from the lighter barrel in extended shooting, due to the fact that it will be hotter, and the barrel will have lost its precision quicker than the heavy barrel. Tell me how this can be incorrect? Looks pretty simple to me. -Jim |
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If you feel you need to make a MOA shot after shooting several minutes in an all out fire fight while running, dodging and reloading and still have the nerves to make a 300 yd head shot on the spot I envy your abilities. By the time an AR heats up enough for the barrel to lose integrity you wont be capable of taking advantage of that ability. Also just what situation are you envisioning where that scenario applies to a civilian using a semi auto AR? If you want to have a cooler barrel at the range pour some water on it. Problem solved. Also get your facts straight. I am really tired of newbies posting misinformation. An M4 weighs .7 lbs less than an HBAR if they are both 14.5" guns the HBAR is still a full half pound heavier. All that weight is in the front of the guns center of balance unlike a magazine which is at or usually behind the rifles center of balance. Why do you think the competition AR shooters add weights to the buttstock? Balance. |
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Quoted: I have a 16" HBAR, which I like because its steady. Lighter barrels whip around a bit more. When I make a CQB gun, I will use a superlight barrel. That will shift targets faster, but I don't expect it to be anywhere near as steady. If your support hand is tired you wont be more steady. Combat is not usually going to be done from the bench or supported positions. That kind of shooting will wear you out quickly and your going to get wobble more quickly with a HBAR. |
| I have quite a few AR uppers. Two of which are a Bushmaster Dissipator HBAR 16" and a DPMS 14.5" M4 with Phantom. Both uppers have similar optics (Aimpoint on the Bushy and Eotech on the M4). The M4 feels much more "handy" because the weight difference, while not much, was taken off the front of the gun. I can switch targets faster with it than I can the HBAR. I have access to a RR and an RLL (my RLL is in paperwork) and the M4 does get pretty hot! But so does the HBAR. Also the HBAR takes much longer to cool down. See if you can go to a shop and pick up both an HBAR and a lightweight and see what you like. You, after all, are the one who will have to live with it. Most likely you will end up with one of each anyway. |
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-------------- Devl stated: If your support hand is tired you wont be more steady. Combat is not usually going to be done from the bench or supported positions. That kind of shooting will wear you out quickly and your going to get wobble more quickly with a HBAR. ------------- [b]Devl, your entire argument for this is based on your assumption that Combat_Jack's hand will be tired from holding the slightly heavier gun. How do you know if his hand will be tired or not in any given CQB situation? You don't know, you're not Combat_Jack. Your argument is based on an assumption. The FACT, however, for Combat_Jack, is that the HBAR is steadier to shoot for him. This is not an assumption, this is based on Combat_Jack's experience and is in every way and form a FACT for him.[/b] ---------------- DevL stated: If you feel you need to make a MOA shot after shooting several minutes in an all out fire fight while running, dodging and reloading and still have the nerves to make a 300 yd head shot on the spot I envy your abilities. ---------------- [b]Ok. It could happen. If I indeed have to engage in a several-minute firefight on my property while running, dodging, reloading, and taking cover, I will most likely also be shooting back as often as I can. I'd like my gun to be as accurate/precise and stay this way for as long as possible. You bet your rear I'll be shooting back, and if I spot my threat through my scope aiming his rifle at me, I'd want to make the most accurate headshot I could possibly make.[/b] ---------------- DevL stated: By the time an AR heats up enough for the barrel to lose integrity you wont be capable of taking advantage of that ability. ---------------- [b]Ok, this is a known fact that's been thrown a few times around on this topic thus far. If my AR heats up too much, of course the barrel will lose its integrity. That's one of the major points of using a HBAR barrel, so that it will not heat up as quickly, thus further increasing shooting time before the barrel loses its integrity.[/b] ------------------- DevL stated: Also just what situation are you envisioning where that scenario applies to a civilian using a semi auto AR? ------------------- [b]You said it yourself. I don't find it unbelievable at all that a citizen may have to defend himself from up to 300+ yards away. I'm not the only person in the world who owns land.[/b] -------------- DevL stated: If you want to have a cooler barrel at the range pour some water on it. Problem solved. -------------- [b]Or use a HBAR barrel, which will take longer to heat up.[/b] -------------- DevL stated: Also get your facts straight. I am really tired of newbies posting misinformation. -------------- [b]This is not misinformation. It is fact, based on Bushmaster's website. I even posted links to the Bushmaster online catalog. Nothing I said in regards to the weight of those 2 rifles is false. It's all documented. If I am incorrect, then Bushmaster is incorrect.[/b] |
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[b]This is not misinformation. It is fact, based on Bushmaster's website. I even posted links to the Bushmaster online catalog. Nothing I said in regards to the weight of those 2 rifles is false. It's all documented. If I am incorrect, then Bushmaster is incorrect.[/b] No, you're just too inexperienced to have a clue what you're talking about. [url]http://www.bushmaster.com/faqs/techdatafaqs.asp[/url] states that the a 14.5" HBAR weighs 2.5 pounds while a 14.5" M4 barrel weighs 2.0 pounds. Just for reference, a 16" HBAR or a 14.5" HBAR with a brake to make it the legal length weighs 2.7 pounds, so all else being equal you're 16" HBAR weighs more than my 20" A2 barrel at 2.5 pounds. And I get more velocity for better accuracy at extended ranges and more surface area for faster cooling. You're basing your arguments on a catalog from a company which, as I've stated before, is trying to sell you something. The other people here are basing their comments on actual, first-hand experience. Some of them are basing it on actual first-hand experience when the targets were shooting back. Wisdom is knowing when to shut up and listen. |
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Quoted: Your concepts of the HB equating to better accuracy are flawed. Yes you could explain it to a simple man to understand but the real world results are quite contrary to your conjecture. What applies to match grade target barrels does not apply to mil-spec chromed lined AR barrels. These barrels are so NOT accurate to begin with the minutia of accuracy which applies to that extra .1 or .2 inch improvement in accuracy for a target gun does not have a pronounced effect on the milspec rifle's accuracy. HB is not more accurate than A2 profile. Many members here have had barrels contoured by Kurt Wala and consistently reported NO CHANGE in accuracy after they went to the lathe. A heavier object is slower to move. A little heavier is a little slower. The heavier a weapon weighs the faster it will wear you out. Those are the simple facts. You can say that the added weight FEELS good or even it reduces muzzle flip which is true or even that a nose heavy gun is what YOU are used to. The fact remains almost all of the M4 and LW barrel owners started out with a 16" or 20" HBAR and realized they wanted something faster and lighter from experience, myself included. The weight comes off the front of the rifle which helps the center of balance. Most people that pick up a Stery Aug feel its lighter than an M4 because of where the weight is even though its a couple of pounds heavier. If you want less muzzle flip or like the feel of a HB by all means use it just dont try to post statements about how it "lasts longer" (unless you are talking time to cook off) or its "more accurate" or its "not any slower" because those statements are just not true and there are lots of newbies who are coming here for factual information to base their purchase selection on. I don't know what to tell you other than I've now taken no less than 6 two+ day tactical carbine courses both in and out of the United States. 4 I did with a 16" HBAR. One 5 day course I used an M4 profile 16", a HBAR and a Sig 551 to see what was the best weapon for me. One 2 day course I used an 14.5" M4 and a 16" HBAR. In all cases (with the exception of the Sig 551 which isn't in the U.S.) I did far better with the HBAR, even at the end of a [b]LONG[/b] day, than with the M4 profile barrels. My times on course were always better with the HBAR, followups and "failure to stop" drills were faster and more accurate. So sorry, but for me it "wasn't any slower" but in fact quite a bit faster. (My 551 was 7.8 pounds without mag btw- heavier than the Shorty 16" HBAR with ACOG, and I scored better in 3 of 5 runs of a course than with the HBAR. The course record there was with a 551 heavier than I was using). Just for the record, I went through 2400 rounds in the 5 day course. About 1500 in the 4 day and about 500-700 in the 2 day courses. Isn't not always about weight folks. It's about feel, balance, recoil... For me the proven better U.S. solution is the 16" HBAR. Your mileage may vary. Heat? That's a tiny factor unless your actually in sustained combat and using full auto. Forget about it. Can we stop arguing about personal preference now? |
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Quoted: This is not misinformation. It is fact, based on Bushmaster's website. ...If I am incorrect, then Bushmaster is incorrect. Yep your both incorrect. Not the first time Bushmaster has screwed up the specs (heck I've got some of their printed catalogs where they list one spec up front - and a different weight in the back - I've also seen a carbine with a 16" barrel have the same overall length as a 20" rifle). Here is a great example. This is that same 16" carbine you posted with a fixed handle: [url]http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/pcwa2s16.asp[/url] Notices the listed weight at 7.22 lbs, well the only difference between it and the one you posted is the handle is fixed. Well by using another chart ([url]http://www.bushmaster.com/faqs/techdatafaqs.asp[/url]) you can find out the flattop is 0.2lbs lighter than the fixed A21 handle. So the rifle you posted SHOULD have read 7.02 lbs. But WAIT! the rifle you posted included the detachable carry handle and that INCREASES the weight by 0.6 lbs so the final weight should be 7.62lbs - [b] A FULL POUND + HEAVIER[/b] than the M4 type. Having been around both types I can attest the HBAR is more than 0.1lbs heavier than an M4. I went with the M4 because it IS lighter and since the weight is on the barrel (which acts like a lever), it feels even lighter with that half pound of dead weight removed. Also, with a cleaning kit in my A1 stock it balances better than with a 16" HBAR (right over the magazine well). |
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Quoted: Quoted: Your concepts of the HB equating to better accuracy are flawed. Yes you could explain it to a simple man to understand but the real world results are quite contrary to your conjecture. What applies to match grade target barrels does not apply to mil-spec chromed lined AR barrels. These barrels are so NOT accurate to begin with the minutia of accuracy which applies to that extra .1 or .2 inch improvement in accuracy for a target gun does not have a pronounced effect on the milspec rifle's accuracy. HB is not more accurate than A2 profile. Many members here have had barrels contoured by Kurt Wala and consistently reported NO CHANGE in accuracy after they went to the lathe. A heavier object is slower to move. A little heavier is a little slower. The heavier a weapon weighs the faster it will wear you out. Those are the simple facts. You can say that the added weight FEELS good or even it reduces muzzle flip which is true or even that a nose heavy gun is what YOU are used to. The fact remains almost all of the M4 and LW barrel owners started out with a 16" or 20" HBAR and realized they wanted something faster and lighter from experience, myself included. The weight comes off the front of the rifle which helps the center of balance. Most people that pick up a Stery Aug feel its lighter than an M4 because of where the weight is even though its a couple of pounds heavier. If you want less muzzle flip or like the feel of a HB by all means use it just dont try to post statements about how it "lasts longer" (unless you are talking time to cook off) or its "more accurate" or its "not any slower" because those statements are just not true and there are lots of newbies who are coming here for factual information to base their purchase selection on. I don't know what to tell you other than I've now taken no less than 6 two+ day tactical carbine courses both in and out of the United States. 4 I did with a 16" HBAR. One 5 day course I used an M4 profile 16", a HBAR and a Sig 551 to see what was the best weapon for me. One 2 day course I used an 14.5" M4 and a 16" HBAR. In all cases (with the exception of the Sig 551 which isn't in the U.S.) I did far better with the HBAR, even at the end of a [b]LONG[/b] day, than with the M4 profile barrels. My times on course were always better with the HBAR, followups and "failure to stop" drills were faster and more accurate. So sorry, but for me it "wasn't any slower" but in fact quite a bit faster. (My 551 was 7.8 pounds without mag btw- heavier than the Shorty 16" HBAR with ACOG, and I scored better in 3 of 5 runs of a course than with the HBAR. The course record there was with a 551 heavier than I was using). Just for the record, I went through 2400 rounds in the 5 day course. About 1500 in the 4 day and about 500-700 in the 2 day courses. Isn't not always about weight folks. It's about feel, balance, recoil... For me the proven better U.S. solution is the 16" HBAR. Your mileage may vary. Heat? That's a tiny factor unless your actually in sustained combat and using full auto. Forget about it. Can we stop arguing about personal preference now? Yes but if I am not mistaken you spent time in the military and got used to a heavy rifle (Sig 550 series) over a long period and that allowed you to learn how to handle the heavier rifle better. Thats what works best for YOU becuase it closer to what you learned to shoot on. Also like I said earlier a front heavy rifle will have less muzzle flip. If you are using a rifle with more muzzle flip and you are swinging just a tad harder to swing to the next target than you need to, you will over compensate and end up slower moving to the next target. Id be willing to bet if you shot an M4 barrel for several years things would change but if a HB works for you why change? Go with what works for you. For the vast majority of newcomers the M4 or a LW barrel will be easier to manage and be faster. |
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