Yes that one. You can see the front and rear on that pic

This is probably not an "early" M4.  I'm not sure what the designation of this short-barreled version is, but the pic is so cool I had to include it.



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Another photo of a "nothing special" M4 in Belize, but the photo is so cool I had to post it.

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The front pivot pin area is straight and not more webbed, tapered, like the standard M4 receiver.  The front pivot pin area in these photos is the earlier type before a reinforcing taper was added to the front pin area.

Somebody else can probably explain that better than I can.

That picture you posted that he quoted was an a2 profile

That's a Colt Commando 11.5" aka Colt M4 Commando (Colt model RO933). The USMC had acquired some as COTS purchases for several of their higher speed units.

I saw it as an A1 profile.

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That brownells lower is not a very good attempt at a1 profile.

But you can also see the rear on that pic where the fence or reinforced material reaches the takedown pin. Hard to tell because these pics have shadows right there

Captioned as an M4, but it's another version I'm not familiar with.  I do not believe it's an M4 of any generation. Am I wrong?

Cool pic, though. I've been "almost" fooled by pics of black rubber training carbines. I looked this over carefully. I hope I haven't been hoodwinked.

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The flash suppressor is steel (since it's rusting) but that's a dummy training carbine.
He's also not wearing SCUBA gear. He's wearing a rebreather.

Rubber duck

Do you just make this shit up?  Do you have a reference document that states this, because the M4 is the fourth standard Army carbine since WWII in the numbering convention.
Again, I'd like to see your sources.  

Jimmy Carter and Congress prohibited Colt from exporting the XM-177 suppressor as it was technically a "Silencer," with all the bad connotations of assassinations and CIA black skulduggery.  To skirt this, Colt built the M16A1 Carbine, with the standard M16A1 dimensions from the front of the standard fore grips.  The world's largest customers for the M16A1 Carbine were the Armed Forces of the Philippines (who called it the "Baby Armalite") and Israel.  The biggest DOD users were Air Force Rescue and SEALs.  

Leftover Vietnam-era XM-177E2s were in Army Special Forces and Ranger Battalion inventories, and as their barrels wore out they were replaced with M16A1 Carbine barrels.  I'd like to know what Army organization you stated wanted the bayonet for the carbine, since the Infantry Center is the Army's small arms proponent.

I believe Abu Dhabi was the first export customer for the M16A2 Carbine.

The M16A1 Carbine, M16A2 Carbine, Colt 723, and the M4A1 all have 14.5-inch barrels.

USSOCOM was established under the Nunn-Cohen Act of 1987.  Army Special Forces had a few M16A2 carbines, but mostly commercial Colt 723s.  This was mine in 1987.  We shot both M855 (standard ammo for M16A2s) and M193:

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USSOCOM adopted the M4A1 in 1993.  I don't know when Uncle Sam got them, but I had one of the first, with an M203, for the Uphold Democracy invasion of Haiti that was canceled in September 1994.

Thought it was the Marines who wanted the 14.5" bbl to use the bayonet w/ the carbine gas system.

The XM177E2 had an excessive flash and noise signature.  The sound/flash suppressor (and yes, it was designed to be a sound suppressor) worked well when new but as fouling built up inside the suppressor, its effectiveness dropped off and after 4 to 5 thousand rounds flash and noise were back in the unacceptable range.  Since the XM177 program was cancelled after the Vietnam War, this and the cold weather reliability issues were never fully resolved.

The first meeting between the Army and Colt on a short version of the M16A1E1/M16A2 occurred in September 1984, nine months later on 12 June 1985 contract number DAAA21-85-C-0192 was signed.  This contract specified the following characteristics:

1.) Fire M855 as the primary ammunition with M193 being fully functional in the weapon. Additionally, it is desirable the weapon function with M200 when using the M15A2 BFA, as well as functioning safely with M196 and M856.

2.) The carbine will use the M16A2 upper receiver assembly and three round limited automatic burst control.

3.) The carbine shall have a newly defined handguard which will enhance the firing/handling of the weapon under normal operating conditions.

4.) The carbine shall have a collapsible buttstock.

5.) The barrel shall be 14.5 inches long.

6.) MRBS (Mean Rounds Between Stoppages) will equal or exceed 600 rounds when using M855 ammunition.

Whoever did ask for the bayonet lug to remain, did so very early, as the bayonet lug was installed on the first 40 XM4s delivered in April 1986 (18 months from the first meeting to hardware delivery, that's not that bad*).

As to the USMC requiring a bayonet, yes, they did.  In fact here are the ESSENTIAL CHARACTERISTICS requested by the USMC:

a. Must be of 5.56 x 45mm NATO caliber and optimized for firing the M855/M856 ammunition. It must be capable of firing the M193/M196 ammunition and the M200 blank.

b. Must fire in both the semiautomatic and three-round burst mode.

c. Must possess maximum parts commonality feasible with the M16A2 rifle. This includes, but is not limited to, the lower receiver, upper receiver, sights, muzzle compensator, trigger group, and bolt.

d. Must obtain a mean rounds between operation mission failure (MRBOMF) of 3,800 rounds using M855 ammunition at ambient temperature.

e. Must possess a sustained rate of fire per minute of from 12 to 15 rounds and a maximum rate of 45 rounds semiautomatic and 90 rounds in 3 round bursts at ambient temperature..

f. Must be operable by the 5th through the 95th percentile of the user population.

g. Must have a combat sling to allow portability during normal tasks and rapid engagement of targets.

h. Must be as light as possible, but not exceed 6.5 pounds unloaded.

i. Must have a collapsible stock and not exceed 34 inches when extended.

j. Must be NBC contamination/decontamination survivable.

k. Must be capable of. being stored and operated in hot, basic, cold and severe cold environments.

l. Must be employable during parachute/swimmer operations using standard rigging/carrying procedures for the M16A2 rifle as specified by the Marine Corps.

m. Must be able to use the standard M16A2 rifle bayonet.

n. Must enable the average rifle-qualified Marine in utilities, helmet, flacklacket, cartridge belt w/2 canteens and first aid pouch, from the prone position with semiautomatic fire, to hit a standard E silhouette with 15 out of 30 rounds from 300 yds within 2 minutes in daylight.

o. Must enable the average rifle-qualified Marine in MOPP 4, from the prone position with semiautomatic fire, to bit a standard "E" silhouette target from 300 yds with 10 out of 30 rounds within 3 minutes in daylight.

p. Must enable the average rifle-qualified Marine in cold weather clothing to hit a standard "E" silhouette from the prone position with semiautomatic fire 15 times oat to 30 rounds, within 2.5 minutes in daylight.

q. Must be compatible with the MILES Field Training system.

But, these requirements were not published until 12 February 1987.  So, it wasn't that the USMC was trying to influence the M4 design, but seeing if the M4, as the Army was designing it, fit the Marine's requirements.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
* This kind of tells you Colt pretty much had the design in hand at the first meeting.

What a great thread. Thanks to all for their contributions and pics.

Here's a really good view of a rubber training carbine.  The ejection port door gives it away more than anything IMHO.

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Another training weapon with air hose.


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I love the fact your Maglite and mount weighed more than rest of the upper. In all seriousness, they are quite heavy and didn't put out that many Lumans Pre-LED days.

Slight trivia de-rail:  the Koreans built the Daewoo K1 Carbine in the early 1980s and ran into the same blast and flash issues as XM-177.  Their muzzle device was about the same size (I don't know if it was a direct clone or just had similar external dimensions), but they turned down the end to mount the standard M16 bayonet in a carbine/submachinegun-size weapon.

Daewoo did the same thing for their semi-only US-market K1A by extending the barrel with a bird-cage on the end.

No LASER, a bit odd.  Training how to handle recoil in a turret?

A1 carbine markings:

https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/Rubber-Duckie-you-re-the-one-/123-772407/

For the cool factor.

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Well, this thread managed to fall off the cliff. many things here have been convoluted because they don't really have much relationship with each other.

The project manager for early XM4 development is a member here (coldblue) and has commented extensively over in the A2 sub forum about the XM4. That project starts in the mid 1980s, dies and then comes back in the early 1990s as the M4 and M4A1 enter service in 1995.

Running parallel to the XM4 program are extensive Foreign Military sales and Commercial sales of various models of M16A2 carbines mainly the model 727 and 733 to SF. These are usually A1 style lowers with SAFE - SEMI - AUTO, two position stocks, and the smaller 6 hole handguards.

By the time the XM4 program is restarted in the 1990s, we are at four position stock, the double heat shield handguards, burst for the M4 and flat top and auto for the M4A1.

Over in SOCOM and a few other places, the M4 procurement is in addition to the Commercial M16A2 carbine buys, so things start to get mixed and now we are at a point as I mentioned earlier that if it isn't a M16, there is a tendency to call it a M4, even if it isn't a M4 but one of the commercial models procured before the M4 was available to be had in the supply system.

As cool as the photos may be, the vast majority of them are not of M4s.

You are correct.  I took a few liberties in posting other variants that have had M4 elements added to them, like the M4 profile barrel, or a complete M4 upper, etc.  Not technically complete M4's, but I thought it was interesting to see older versions upgraded with M4 parts.  And yes, I posted some pics just because they were cool and not often seen.

So I guess I just won't post any more pics in this thread.

No stress - when the question was what about early M4 configurations in military service, I assumed that was the information requested. Other carbines have a different set of assumptions behind why they were procured and is worthy of its own discussion.

I tried to stick to pics of early M4's, but then decided to include earlier variants that had been upgraded with M4 components.

This was my inspiration

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This one had been remarked M4A1 from simply M4 just because a few parts were changed.  Clearly the military is okay with upgrading a previous variant to a different one. So if a fixed carry handle A1 carbine  can be upgraded with an M4 barrel it's kind of in the same ballpark as far as I'm concerned.

Other pics I decided were just cool to include because they represent other types of weapons with M4 elements.  Should I have not included the 20" rifle with the carbine stock and receiver extension?  I know it's not a true M4 but it does have M4 parts.  Same with short barreled commando weapons--technically not "true" M4's, but should I have not included them even though the only major difference is in the barrel profile and length?  Should I not have included a weapon refurbed from, say an M16A1 or M16A2 receiver even though  the retractable stock and M4 upper do in fact make it an M4 for all practical purposes?

I decided not to include XM177 pics because that lineage ended long before the concept of the M16 carbine began to take on another life of its own later.

Necessity is the mother of invention as they say...My first Weapons light was an Old Surefire 6P with a 65-lumen incandescent bulb. I used electrical tape to tape it to the handguards of my M16A2 when we started MOUT training in 2002.

We've come quite aways...

The Air Force overhauled-upgraded a number of GUU-5 and GAU-5 carbines to M4 / M4A1 configuration as M4 repair parts came into the system, especially new barrels to replace XM- and A1 pencil barrels.  You could find lots of carbines with M4 barrels but a mix of A1 and flat-top uppers, and most of the original Colt aluminum stocks.

At the US Army Marksmanship Unit we converted a number of FN M16A2 rifles to M4A1 Carbines as the Army phased out basic training carry-handle rifles to M16A4 flat-tops in 2004-05.  We needed carbines for Close Combat courses and Train-the-Trainer Mobile Training Teams to Iraq and Afghanistan.

No kidding, I had a g2 duct taped to my SAW

A G2??? Holy crap, you were running the Block 2 upgrade....
I remember how bright and powerful I thought the early 65 lumen Surefire were compared to the Maglight. and now dudes would laugh at it, but when you needed to go into a dark building, it was pretty awesome.

Another one posted strictly for the cool factor.

Sorry, I have to page through screen after screen after screen on that website just to find one good photo, so I don't feel like passing up a really good one.  I'm changing the thread title to include "oddball" carbines.



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Navy Cameramen have all the kewl toys, no?

I remember all the single point and 3 point slings back in the late 90's early 2000's. I rocked a The Wilderness 3 point sling on my M16A2. It was way better then the issues GI silent sling, but tended to get hung up on gear and inside Humvee's.

Later I rocked a single point as it seemed cleaner, but transitions would let the Carbine smack ya in the jewels.

When Blueforce gear came out with the Vickers VCAS 2-point adjustable sling, it was great, and I never looked back.


Those AN/PEQ2C 's were a chore to zero without a visible laser.  

The SOPMOD stocks were awesome, and I still rock them (Even got one for my Air Rifle).

I have not tried the offset RDS with my LVPO. I might down the road just to see how I like it.

I'm surprised at the number of photos I saw where the service member was rocking the green canvas sling on the weapon.  In your experience did you see the canvas sling with any degree of regularity?

Just like Cops, the majority of servicemen/women were not/are not gun nuts. Even the SOF folks will tell you you that a lot of them rocked what was in the Arms room. And never got into the minutia of what it was...who made it...and how it worked.
And unfortunately, those rooms were more often than not, ran by E-3/4 guys who thought they knew more than they did. Or were not school trained, but just filling a spot because they sucked at other stuff.

The OD canvas and black Nylon slings were the most common because they were in the supply system. And made for a time period where there only function was to carry your rifle over the shoulder and not for actual fighting with the gun.

That's why guys in Vietnam modified them with paracord so you could actually fight with them. Or removed them completely.
But those lessons were all lost until the GWOT kicked in, then as those lessons were relearned slings started to be designed for fighting.

When we got M4 MWS's and M68 CCO's and PE2C, no one knew jack about them.
One of the drivers behind the Army creating a small arms Master Gunner course. Shit was getting way more technical them just going to a 25m zero range and put 3 rds in a 4-centimeter circle and then off to the pop up 300-meter qual range.

SOCOM started to get a head on this stuff and eventually it trickled down to big Army. Asymmetric Warfare Group (AWG) was formed as an additional force multiplier to start cataloging and disseminating what was working and get it out to Big Army.

Like Stukas mentions in his two excellent videos, manuals and newer gear was lagging even in SF groups. So, imagine how long it took for this to get to regular line units.

Why a lot of us improvised and bought some of the new gear on our own dime.

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Another earlier spec receiver rebuilt as an M4.

Note front pivot pin area.



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Pre-M4 but some good discussion here

Edited:  Dupe

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Non firing rubber duck.

CD

Concur, rubber duck.

CD

That well worn M4 upgraded to M4A1 belonged to the 82nd and I inspected it in 18' in Afghanistan.  

5th SFGA got our M4A1s second quarter of 95' (Jan-Mar).  I'll post pictures of it in Jordan 95' and Haiti 95' later.


CD

Fort Campbell summer of 95'
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Jordan Sep 95'
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Haiti Dec 95', M4A1 with ACOG TA01NSN
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CD

Very cool.  Why is the Jordan photo and Haiti photo monochrome?  Just curious.

That is the M4, I was handed, and told to treat it like it owed me money. Acog Ta31 came later.

Group photo lab gave us free film to use for our Canon F1 and Nikos III (underwater) cameras.  Then processed it after the trips.  Later scanned in.
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CD