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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - $2000 per AR15 (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 4/9/2017 3:32:14 PM EDT
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Lots of threads and posts and experts on the topics of "how much should I spend on my AR?" or "How many mags/ammo do I need?". I like these kinds of discussions. Didn't find any recently on here or elsewhere (but maybe I didn't StartPage hard enough). Some folks even said to have enough guns/mags/ammo to outfit a "team". Well, what WOULD be a good setup for just one person? There's the "7-mag" loadout. There's the "fast and light", etc. Situation dictates, factors, yadayadayada.
I found answers like "you should have 1000 rounds minimum!" or "have as many mags as you can!" to which other's countered "all those mags will be useless to carry on you, buy more ammo!". Price ranges for rifles went from $400 builds to $2500+ for the 5.56. So for a STARTING point, here is my contribution as an armchair commando - for your first/next rifle, set aside $2000. Rifle: A good rifle will be $1000. Even building one, with quality parts, you'll get close to that. Or you can find a used Daniel Defense for about that. But let's just stick with $1000 for a rifle. Optic: Say about $400 for an optic. You have ones that are more expensive, sure. But $400 will get you an Eotech, Aimpoint Pro, Meprolight, etc. Ammo I like the idea of 1000 rounds as a minimum. Per rifle! 1000 rounds of brass 55gr 5.56 ammo is about $340. Mags I am of the philosophy you should have enough ammo to load all your mags twice. So if we have 1000 rounds for the rifle, have 500 rounds worth of magazines. That is actually easy to do. 12 standard 30-round mags, two 40-round mags, and a D-60 drum because Freedom. (12x30)+(2x40)+60 = 500. The mags also let you have 2 basic loadouts. One 40rd mag in the well (or the D-60) and 6 mags on the vest. Cost is $10/30rd, $20/40rd, and $100 for the D-60. That is $260. Alternative: 16 30rd mags and a 20rd mag will get you to 500 rounds loaded and only cost $160. Use the extra $100 to buys a light/sling. So, $1000 + $400 + $340 + $260 = $2000. Of course as you find deals/used prices, you can have other "must have" accessories like slings, lights, rail covers, and of course....this So the next time you're thinking of buying another rifle, keep this "true cost" and numbers in mind. What do you all think on the reasoning? Added Cost: shooting just 125 rounds a month (4 mags with some excess in sighting-in) adds up to about $500 in ammo annually. So buying 1 "Rifle" every 2 years is $3000. |
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I haven't spent anywhere near $1k on a rifle. Not even on a new ddm4 (caught a good deal a few years back).
I would get more 30rd pmags instead of the 40s and 60. Need a light and sling. So I guess I might end up near $2k for everything, but I would spend the money differently. |
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are you out of your mind? Quoted:
are you out of your mind? Quoted:
I haven't spent anywhere near $1k on a rifle. Not even on a new ddm4 (caught a good deal a few years back). I would get more 30rd pmags instead of the 40s and 60. Need a light and sling. So I guess I might end up near $2k for everything, but I would spend the money differently. |
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I'm not sure I fully understand the point of this post? I don't think I ever seen anyone recommend spending $2,000 on a rifle. That's quite a heavy investment and most people on this forum probably don't have enough for just a nice $800 dollars rifle.
Now if you want to argue over time people spend $2,000 dollars on a rifle, then that might be true. It's entirely possible that over the span of a year or two you could accumulate quite a lot of accessories for your rifle, including new mags and gears suited for whatever need you have or just for a fun day at the range. I think very few people on this forum actually use their rifle for anything other than a hobby or a self-defense home rifle. Neither of which requiring the proposed amount of training, time or investment. Military and LE require certain amount of readiness each year. They require training because they might have to use their rifles for something other than a hobby. |
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Just an observation on responses to the various question types in the original post, this forum and others. It's also from noticing people havingdebates between owning a half a dozen ARs or just one with money going primarily into ammo and mags. I think that if you think of each AR you buy as "costing" $2000, it puts things into perspective. It's easy to get sidetracked, spending $2000 on 4 $500 AR15s rather than investing into a quality setup. I see ARs being sold all the time private party, because the folks just have so many ARs. Rarely see ammo or mags listed where I'm at though. So it got me thinking, and searching through forums, and the $2000 for the setup described above is what I came to as an ideal compromise between quantity and quality.
Don't military/LEO folks have their departments pay for their ammo and training? But you did make me think of the added "enjoyment" cost of the rifle. 120rds a month, plus whatever you shoot to zero in optics, is 1500 rounds a year, which is about $500 in ammo annually. This is just recreational shooting, not including the carbine courses that can go through 1500 rounds in a weekend. |
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PSA 14.7 CHF CL pinned and welded rifle kit (550$) Here Used stuff will, of course, always be cheaper. I've probably spent $1500 on stuff that is $3000 bought new. But it's my only setup. I've worked my way up buying different stuff never liking it and finally realizing I should have just dropped $2k and been done with it lol. |
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Yah there's the biggest one there. I rank the PSA rifle's and kits I've handled with the Ruger AR556. Not bad, but not fun either. I wouldn't call them "good" rifles, just ok. Used stuff will, of course, always be cheaper. I've probably spent $1500 on stuff that is $3000 bought new. But it's my only setup. I've worked my way up buying different stuff never liking it and finally realizing I should have just dropped $2k and been done with it lol. So basically, you're just saying that someone wants to buy what you like, expect to spend $2000 on gun+what you have deemed necessary accessories. |
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I've got ~ $2000 in my BCM build
- 14.5 full BCM upper pinned A2X midlength - DD RIS II FDE rail - BCM lower, Geissele SSA trigger - Inforce WML on Haley Thorntail offset - BCM Mod 4 CH - Trijicon RX30-23 w/ Magpul BUS - VTAC padded 2 point on QD front/rear (7) 30 rd M3 mags loaded with MK262 and "unlimited" Remington .223 training ammo Need to build out a belt/carrier next |
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Yah there's the biggest one there. I rank the PSA rifle's and kits I've handled with the Ruger AR556. Not bad, but not fun either. I wouldn't call them "good" rifles, just ok. Used stuff will, of course, always be cheaper. I've probably spent $1500 on stuff that is $3000 bought new. But it's my only setup. I've worked my way up buying different stuff never liking it and finally realizing I should have just dropped $2k and been done with it lol. |
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this thread is balls
If you are talking about setting up an interested neighbor, you can do that for $1.1k easy. PSA Freedom level M4 type kit, whatever is on sale (not PTAC) $500 built (by u) 1000 rounds ammo, delivered: $350 Basic Primary arms optic system (CQB, mild power variable, or decent red dot): $250 done $100 more for sling, 4 mags, case, and cleaning kit. You absolutly do not need more than 4 mags, more then that is just inventory and convenience. as time progresses and his interest grows (if it does, most people stop there), he can upgrade the trigger, mag and furniture. |
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I've got ~ $1800 in my BCM build - 14.5 full BCM upper pinned A2X midlength - DD RIS II FDE rail - Complete BCM lower - Inforce WML on Haley Thorntail offset - BCM Mod 4 CH - Trijicon RX30-23 w/ Magpul BUS - VTAC 2 point on QD front/rear (7) 30 rd M3 mags loaded with MK262 and "unlimited" Remington .223 training ammo Need to build out a belt/carrier next The $2000 is the bare minimum in having a "rifle". |
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I've got ~ $1800 in my BCM build - 14.5 full BCM upper pinned A2X midlength - DD RIS II FDE rail - Complete BCM lower - Inforce WML on Haley Thorntail offset - BCM Mod 4 CH - Trijicon RX30-23 w/ Magpul BUS - VTAC 2 point on QD front/rear (7) 30 rd M3 mags loaded with MK262 and "unlimited" Remington .223 training ammo Need to build out a belt/carrier next The $2000 is the bare minimum in having a "rifle". Sure you could get by with just a $1000 rifle, 2 mags, and a couple hundred rounds of ammo to "start", but the package isn't complete without the stuff indicated in the $2000 total. |
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If I was to recommend an AR to someone or decide I'll only have one plus accessories (light, optic, sling, magazines and ammo,) the $2000 price point looks average.
It's like any other hobby nowadays. Most hobbies have a minimal investment of $500, and only go up from there. |
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My suggestion for SHTF is that you really want two distinct rifles. First, a carbine set up for close range and self defense use. You can decide how you want to outfit it as there are so many options. After that gun, the second is a long range AR-15 rifle. Here I would suggest a flattop with back up irons and a good quality scope. For the carbine, 30-rd mags are great but for the rifle shooting prone you will want 20-rd mags. The two serve very different purposes and their use can cross over but you will always be hard pressed to place consistent hits at very long ranges with the carbine and you will never be quick on fast moving close targets with a rifle with a scope.
Besides, one is none and two is one applies as if anything breaks on one you can use that gun as a parts donor moving forward to keep the remaining system in the fight. |
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Idk my LE6920MPS was $800 and every time I pick it up I want to shoot it. Does anything I could want a rifle to without issue. Quoted:
Idk my LE6920MPS was $800 and every time I pick it up I want to shoot it. Does anything I could want a rifle to without issue. Quoted:
Thought this thread was gonna be about Demo Ranches limited run AR15 through F1  I was wrong lolThe $2000 is the minimum. I can't see how you can have a quality AR built for $700. You can have an ok rifle for that price. Bottom of the barrel for $400-500. Lower - $100 (don't go calling a $50 Anderson in this category. I'm in KY and LOVE Anderson lowers, but they are not on the level of DD, Midwest, LMT, etc). Lower Parts kit with milspec trigger - $150 Stock, receiver, etc - $70 Upper Reciever - $150 BCG - $100 ($200 if you go NiB) Barrel - $300 Guardrail/Heat Shield - $150 Muzzle Break - $50 Total: $1000 |
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I usually see LE6920 rifles going for $800 used locally, over $900-1000 new in stores. I would definitely want one of those! Especially an F1 American flag colored one. The $2000 is the minimum. I can't see how you can have a quality AR built for $700. You can have an ok rifle for that price. Bottom of the barrel for $400-500. Lower - $100 (don't go calling a $50 Anderson in this category. I'm in KY and LOVE Anderson lowers, but they are not on the level of DD, Midwest, LMT, etc). Lower Parts kit with milspec trigger - $150 Stock, receiver, etc - $70 Upper Reciever - $150 BCG - $100 ($200 if you go NiB) Barrel - $300 Guardrail/Heat Shield - $150 Muzzle Break - $50 Total: $1000 |
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I usually see LE6920 rifles going for $800 used locally, over $900-1000 new in stores. I would definitely want one of those! Especially an F1 American flag colored one. The $2000 is the minimum. I can't see how you can have a quality AR built for $700. You can have an ok rifle for that price. Bottom of the barrel for $400-500. Lower - $100 (don't go calling a $50 Anderson in this category. I'm in KY and LOVE Anderson lowers, but they are not on the level of DD, Midwest, LMT, etc). Aero Precision lower, $55 + $20 transfer fee Lower Parts kit with milspec trigger - $150 RBA build your own parts kit with ALG QMS trigger, <$100 Stock, receiver, etc - $70 Upper Reciever - $150 Aero Precision stripped upper w/ AP BCG and charging handle, $145; or AP stripped upper ~$50 BCG - $100 ($200 if you go NiB) see above; or Toolcraft BCG, ~$90 Barrel - $300 Larue Stealth (or PredatAR) barrel, $225 ($245 w/ M4 feed ramps) Guardrail/Heat Shield - $150 ALG or AP Quantum free float handguards, ~$100 Muzzle Break - $50 A2 flash hider, $7 Total: $1000 $722 |
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Half your price estimates are way too high, $150 LPK, $150 heat shield, $300 barrel, $150 upper receiver, you don't need to spend that much for those parts for a good fighting carbine. Also your lower examples are from companies that don't offer stripped lowers, at least DD and LMT don't. What differences do you believe exist between one stripped milspec lower and another? We disagree on having to spend that much for a good fighting carbine. You could use cheap parts, but again the topic is me saying spending $1000 on a quality rifle minimum, maybe $800 in parts at the least and build it yourself. Everyone and their grandmother knows you can get a kit for under $400 and it will technically work, just not perform. |
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I usually see LE6920 rifles going for $800 used locally, over $900-1000 new in stores. I would definitely want one of those! Especially an F1 American flag colored one. The $2000 is the minimum. I can't see how you can have a quality AR built for $700. You can have an ok rifle for that price. Bottom of the barrel for $400-500. Lower - $100 (don't go calling a $50 Anderson in this category. I'm in KY and LOVE Anderson lowers, but they are not on the level of DD, Midwest, LMT, etc). Lower Parts kit with milspec trigger - $150 Stock, receiver, etc - $70 Upper Reciever - $150 BCG - $100 ($200 if you go NiB) Barrel - $300 Guardrail/Heat Shield - $150 Muzzle Break - $50 Total: $1000 ETA: Could you explain in exact and measurable terms what you consider "quality", OP? |
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Mfg process. MIM vs Forged vs ??? Where the steel comes from, tolerance levels, the distinctions are apparent. Quoted:
Mfg process. MIM vs Forged vs ??? Where the steel comes from, tolerance levels, the distinctions are apparent. How are the prices "way" too high? A decent trigger is going to be $50 on it's own. cheap LPKs are $100. Less than $100 with one of the better mil spec triggers on the market. |
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What if I don't want my muzzle broken? Does that shave off some of the cost? ETA: Could you explain in exact and measurable terms what you consider "quality", OP? Quoted:
What if I don't want my muzzle broken? Does that shave off some of the cost? ETA: Could you explain in exact and measurable terms what you consider "quality", OP? Quality is based on the standards and tolerances of products produced by companies such as DD, LMT, BCM, etc. I'm not one to use "Tier 1" as that is rather vague and broad, but those companies are the baseline for a quality rifle. Rifles from Windham, Bushmaster, the $700-800 new rifles are a step below that. The toy rifles, things to mess around with and tinker without worrying about ruining are the Ruger AR556, DPMS, Andersons, etc. They have god aweful triggers, barebones capability, and are basically you getting what you pay for. Quoted:
You are either absolutely ignorant or you are purposefully avoiding my question, what difference do you think exists between milspec, stripped AR lowers. http://www.primaryarms.com/alg-lower-parts-kit-with-grip-and-qms-trigger-16-002 Less than $100 with one of the better mil spec triggers on the market. Thinking I misread your question earlier I re-read and then mis-read thinking you asked about triggers/LPK not lowers and thus wrote all this out. Didn't want to waste the effort so I'll add it. A great deal exists between milspec triggers. I've had milspec 7lbs triggers from Windham and Ruger that were just sh*t. Dragged like they were full of sand, lots of takeup, etc. It would take half a day of polishing the parts to get them anywhere close to being out of the horrendous category. DD and BCM milspec triggers were leaps and bounds better. And those (DD/BCM/LMT) are just bare minimum for a trigger in a rifle, compared to the Geissele triggers I've handled. |
In your OP, you budget for 125 rounds per month. I'm not understanding this. Who is only going to shoot 4 mags (120 rounds) once a month each time they go to the range? I shoot four mags in the first 20 minutes of getting to the range, for a total average of about 300-400 rounds per range trip. Multiply that times four Sunday's in a month and I shoot A LOT. Running drills for 2.5-3 hours each week adds up to a large monthly expenditure on ammunition. I guess that's the difference between a serious shooter who has use of a private range and a hobbyist who is stuck going to an indoor or public range with R.O.'s looking over their shoulder the whole time not allowing more than one round to be fired every three seconds.
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You can get an A2 flash hider for $5 but I don't consider that a part of a quality rifle. Aero is maybe a somewhat ok lower but I wouldn't use it on a dedicated build. The parts you listed are for a meh AR, slightly better than an Anderson/PSA kit. There's no reasoning with some people... |
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In your OP, you budget for 125 rounds per month. I'm not understanding this. Who is only going to shoot 4 mags (120 rounds) once a month each time they go to the range? I shoot four mags in the first 20 minutes of getting to the range, for a total average of about 300-400 rounds per range trip. Multiply that times four Sunday's in a month and I shoot A LOT. Running drills for 2.5-3 hours each week adds up to a large monthly expenditure on ammunition. I guess that's the difference between a serious shooter who has use of a private range and a hobbyist who is stuck going to an indoor or public range with R.O.'s looking over their shoulder the whole time not allowing more than one round to be fired every three seconds. |
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You are either absolutely ignorant or you are purposefully avoiding my question, what difference do you think exists between milspec, stripped AR lowers. http://www.primaryarms.com/alg-lower-parts-kit-with-grip-and-qms-trigger-16-002 Less than $100 with one of the better mil spec triggers on the market. Quoted:
You are either absolutely ignorant or you are purposefully avoiding my question, what difference do you think exists between milspec, stripped AR lowers. http://www.primaryarms.com/alg-lower-parts-kit-with-grip-and-qms-trigger-16-002 Less than $100 with one of the better mil spec triggers on the market. How am I avoiding your question? I KNOW there's a difference between milspec lowers. Milspec is a term for bare minimum with a wide degree of variability. Tons of crap is called "milspec" when it's hardly better than "milsim" A budget AR lower from Ruger or DPMS can be called "milspec" but I wouldn't put them through the same work as I would a Colt. Car parts are all to a certain industry "spec" but that doesn't mean all are the same quality, even at the material level. D2 steel from Benchmade is not the same as D2 steel from Cold Steel. True, people don't generally work their gear hard enough to notice a difference when it comes to the details of metal properties, but the difference exists. You're squaking over a $50 price difference in a lower. That's 50/800 = 6% difference in the price of components for what I'm calling a "quality" rifle.
Thinking I misread your question earlier I re-read and then mis-read thinking you asked about triggers/LPK not lowers and thus wrote all this out. Didn't want to waste the effort so I'll add it. A great deal exists between milspec triggers. I've had milspec 7lbs triggers from Windham and Ruger that were just sh*t. Dragged like they were full of sand, lots of takeup, etc. It would take half a day of polishing the parts to get them anywhere close to being out of the horrendous category. DD and BCM milspec triggers were leaps and bounds better. And those (DD/BCM/LMT) are just bare minimum for a trigger in a rifle, compared to the Geissele triggers I've handled. |
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Fair enough on the DD and LMT. How about Yankee Hill, Seekins Precision, Sharps, MAG Tactical, etc? Even Spikes offers some great lowers.
And again, just because 2 things are said to be made out of the same material, the manufacturing, treating, coating, machining are where the quality lies. Otherwise, why would they exist and all lowers not cost $40? |
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Fair enough on the DD and LMT. How about Yankee Hill, Seekins Precision, Sharps, MAG Tactical, etc? Even Spikes offers some great lowers. Quoted:
Fair enough on the DD and LMT. How about Yankee Hill, Seekins Precision, Sharps, MAG Tactical, etc? Even Spikes offers some great lowers. And again, just because 2 things are said to be made out of the same material, the manufacturing, treating, coating, machining are where the quality lies. Otherwise, why would they exist and all lowers not cost $40? In terms of standard, forged, milspec lowers, the roll mark is the primary cause of increased asking prices. |
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You can get an A2 flash hider for $5 but I don't consider that a part of a quality rifle.
I didn't include fancy breaks like a BattleComp ($150) or Surefire or even cheaper ones like the VG6 Epsilon |
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Otherwise, why would they exist and all lowers not cost $40? You keep getting hung up on the concept that cost somehow equals quality/functionality, but it isn't always that simple. Take for instance the lower comparison, show me where cheap lowers have failed or how they are inherently more likely to fail. I'm not talking about polymer lowers, but anodized mil spec lowers. I can't find any data supporting the theory that they suffer failures more often than other lowers. Now, its your money to spend as you see fit, but the idea that you have to spend over $800-1k to get a "quality" rifle is flawed. Here's what I would build: -Lower $50 (I've bought Anderson lowers as cheap as $32) -LPK $60 -Rock River 2-stage NM trigger $75 -Upper $65 -Ballistic Advantage 16" barrel w/ pinned gas block $225 -Keymod forend $50 -Magpul stock assembly $75 -PSA premium BCG w/ CH $85 You can get even cheaper going used, I have seen pinned Ballistic Advantage barrels for $125-150, and uppers for $50. Add a LaRue MBT, and you are still under $700. I have built several rifles for around $600, and wouldn't have a single hesitation in using them for any self defense/SHTF scenario. |
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I bought a basic DPMS in 2006 for $700.
That rifle went nearly 10k rounds with no broken parts, minor maintenance, and only minor problems (almost always because it got too dry, or a mag related problem). I'm not sure if you'd just call that "performing" or not, but it seemed to work for me. I took several classes where we shot upwards of 500 rounds a day, and it always came through. But, I can see you base everything on a name and a price tag, and not the actual performance. |
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LoL. So Toolcraft, AP, ALG and Larue are now "meh". And an A2 FH is now sub par. There's no reasoning with some people... Quoted:
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You can get an A2 flash hider for $5 but I don't consider that a part of a quality rifle. Aero is maybe a somewhat ok lower but I wouldn't use it on a dedicated build. The parts you listed are for a meh AR, slightly better than an Anderson/PSA kit. There's no reasoning with some people... ETA: brownells has AP complete rifles for $540 shipped right now. Use code L9Q |
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Lights, slings, & BUIS are not requirements a rifle can be very capable without these accouterments.
I think 16 mags is overkill, a minimum of 3 30rnd mags & one 20 round mag is a solid minimum for a beginner. very rarely will you shoot more than a 110 round in one day as a new shooter. |
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It amazes me that the military was able to get by with an A2 flash hider for decades, but suddenly it isn't considered part of a quality rifle...
You are making it very difficult to take you seriously. Its a brake. Besides, I personally wouldn't want a brake on any serious/SHTF rifle, especially on a 5.56 gun....there simply isn't enough benefit to justify the extra noise or expense. Personally, i kind of like the A2 flash hider. But its not a gamer's choice, I'll say that. |
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Fair enough on the DD and LMT. How about Yankee Hill, Seekins Precision, Sharps, MAG Tactical, etc? Even Spikes offers some great lowers. And again, just because 2 things are said to be made out of the same material, the manufacturing, treating, coating, machining are where the quality lies. Otherwise, why would they exist and all lowers not cost $40? |
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most people on this forum probably don't have enough for just a nice $800 dollars rifle.. Quoted:
most people on this forum probably don't have enough for just a nice $800 dollars rifle.. Quoted:
If it was my primary HD/SHTF gun, I'd prioritize a good weapon mounted light and a sling before an optic. We have an entire new generation of shooters on arfcom that have no experience with the frustration of poorly made AR's. But to be fair, this is because cheap AR's are a lot better than they used to be. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - $2000 per AR15 (Page 1 of 2)
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