AR Sponsor
Posted: 3/8/2017 12:09:14 AM EDT
| I noticed when pressing the trigger the hammer travels down before it is released, why does it travel down first? How would I prevent it from going down before it is released? I'm trying to get a lighter release, it's at 4.5lbs right now and I'm wanting 3lbs. |
|
Grinding and stoning the trigger / hammer surfaces to do what you want removes the heat treat hardened outer layer exposing the softer core metal of the hammer and trigger which quickly wears down causing erratic pulls, doubles and run aways. Very dangerous. Don't do it.
Spend the money for a Geissele trigger and don't look back. Flip things on Craigslist to raise the requisite funds if necessary. |
| the trigger/hammer is made of one metal, it's not bi-metal; soft on bottom and hard on top. I don't know where you get your bad information but I wouldn't spread it. People have been stoning triggers for centuries, the only danger is stoning the sear. I thank you for taking your time to post here but it's BS! |
|
Quoted:
the trigger/hammer is made of one metal, it's not bi-metal; soft on bottom and hard on top. I don't know where you get your bad information but I wouldn't spread it. People have been stoning triggers for centuries, the only danger is stoning the sear. I thank you for taking your time to post here but it's BS! When fire control parts are heat treated, the surface of the steel is hardened, not the entire part. Depending on multiple factors, that hardened surface layer might be just a few thousandths of an inch thick. Light stoning or polishing--that is, smoothing the surface without removing any significant material--is fine, and will typically result in reduced friction (a smoother action). HOWEVER...if someone is trying to eliminate "creep," or to change the engagement geometry of the parts (which sounds like the OP might be wanting to do), a light stoning isn't going to cut it. In such a case, you could end up removing much more metal than the thickness of the heat treated layer. As B44T wisely cautioned--"grinding and stoning the trigger / hammer surfaces" (to alter the geometry of the parts) is not a good idea...unless the OP also knows how to re-heat treat those parts. |
|
Quoted:
the trigger/hammer is made of one metal, it's not bi-metal; soft on bottom and hard on top. I don't know where you get your bad information but I wouldn't spread it. People have been stoning triggers for centuries, the only danger is stoning the sear. I thank you for taking your time to post here but it's BS! You should educate yourself a little before you tell people they don't know what they are talking about. The standard AR trigger parts are very susceptible to damage when polishing is attempted. At most, with very careful polishing, you are going to reduce some creep and smooth it out. Reducing the actual trigger pull on almost any trigger, no matter the firearm, is usually accomplished by changing geometry and using different springs. On the AR, you are basically stuck installing a completely different design altogether, such as a two stage trigger. |
|
Quoted:
I noticed when pressing the trigger the hammer travels down before it is released, why does it travel down first? How would I prevent it from going down before it is released? I'm trying to get a lighter release, it's at 4.5lbs right now and I'm wanting 3lbs. In very basic terms... In an AR the primary sear surface is the upper front edge of your trigger. When the hammer is "cocked," that edge of the trigger is caught in a small notch on the lower rear surface of the hammer. To fire the shot, the trigger is pulled, which rotates that forward edge (primary sear surface) down (and slightly forward) until it drops out of the hammer notch, allowing the hammer to slam forward under spring pressure until it impacts the firing pin. Got that? If not, look up "how an AR15 trigger works" on youtube. there are plenty of videos. OK, so understanding that, you should understand that "creep" (the distance the trigger has to be pulled before it finally drops out of the hammer notch) is actually a measure of how deeply the sear surface sits into the notch. But you should also understand that the relative geometry of those two surfaces--in other words, the angle between the top edge of the trigger and the bottom edge of the hammer notch--is what's causing your hammer to move downward. Rather than the sear surface moving straight downward without affecting the position of the hammer (until it drops), your hammer is pushing forward against the hammer notch as it moves downward. (Pushing the bottom rear of the hammer forward forces the top of the hammer back or "down.") If I had to guess, I'd say the most likely culprit in your scenario is the cut of the hammer notch. If It were at a slightly different angle, the hammer wouldn't move back while the trigger was being pulled. BUT if you change the angle too much, it will not safely engage the sear surface. The notch will just slip off the edge of the trigger. That is why I'll echo the other member who suggested you invest in a decent aftermarket trigger. Milspec triggers CAN be made quite good...but shouldn't be tackled by anyone who hasn't developed some skills with those parts. If you don't want to spend the money for a new trigger (the Larue Tactical MBT is great deal at $125), then consider simply replacing the springs. Lighter hammer and trigger springs will reduce the trigger pull--but could reduce reliability, especially if you're shooting ammo with hard primers. |
| I stand by my statement, I know the procedures for producing AR triggers. You guys are not answering my question. I do not want a lesson on your views on safety or triggers, I want to know why the trigger moves down before releasing but I will get my inspection mirror and flashlight and figure it out for myself like I should have done instead of starting this thread. I thought I could get a quick answer but I was mistaken. |
|
Quoted:
the angle between the top edge of the trigger and the bottom edge of the hammer notch--is what's causing your hammer to move downward. Rather than the sear surface moving straight downward without affecting the position of the hammer (until it drops), your hammer is pushing forward against the hammer notch as it moves downward. (Pushing the bottom rear of the hammer forward forces the top of the hammer back or "down.") @ OP - This^ is what's happening, based on your brief OP description. If you are unsatisfied with the option of an aftermarket trigger (ALG makes a damn fine trigger for less than $50) then I might suggest purchasing a new mil-spec FCG and alternately swapping disco, trigger, and hammer until you've identified which part is out of spec - if that's even the case. A jig will make this process easier on you: http://www.strikeindustries.com/shop/index.php/products/rifle-accessories/ar/lower-parts-kit/ar-trigger-hammer-jig.html this is a really simple animation showing what OlGunner describes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh2FjzVVIZY ETA: to your second question on lighter trigger pull - lighter springs are what you seek, Brownells offers several options; but springs alone will not likely get you to 3#. If 3# is your goal, an aftermarket trigger is your only option that I'm aware of due to the inherent limitations of the mil-spec FCG. |
|
Quoted:
I noticed when pressing the trigger the hammer travels down before it is released, why does it travel down first? How would I prevent it from going down before it is released? I'm trying to get a lighter release, it's at 4.5lbs right now and I'm wanting 3lbs. It goes down because that's how it's designed. What have you done to get it to 4.5? A factory trigger is heavier than 4.5. You can use one of these to adjust some of the take up out to improve the feel. JoeBob_s_Trigger_Adjuster_p/jb-triggeradjuster.htm |
|
Quoted:
@ OP - This^ is what's happening, based on your brief OP description. If you are unsatisfied with the option of an aftermarket trigger (ALG makes a damn fine trigger for less than $50) then I might suggest purchasing a new mil-spec FCG and alternately swapping disco, trigger, and hammer until you've identified which part is out of spec - if that's even the case. A jig will make this process easier on you: http://www.strikeindustries.com/shop/index.php/products/rifle-accessories/ar/lower-parts-kit/ar-trigger-hammer-jig.html this is a really simple animation showing what OlGunner describes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh2FjzVVIZY ETA: to your second question on lighter trigger pull - lighter springs are what you seek, Brownells offers several options; but springs alone will not likely get you to 3#. If 3# is your goal, an aftermarket trigger is your only option that I'm aware of due to the inherent limitations of the mil-spec FCG. That animation is actually very good. OP, look at the part starting at 1:38 in the video and think about how the relative angles of the sear and the notch could make the hammer move "down" before releasing. Sorry if my answer contained more info than you wanted. Your question was fairly basic, so I assumed you aren't familiar with the design. I apologize if that was a mistaken assumption. |
|
Quoted:
I stand by my statement, I know the procedures for producing AR triggers. You guys are not answering my question. I do not want a lesson on your views on safety or triggers, I want to know why the trigger moves down before releasing but I will get my inspection mirror and flashlight and figure it out for myself like I should have done instead of starting this thread. I thought I could get a quick answer but I was mistaken. Quoted:
I stand by my statement, I know the procedures for producing AR triggers. You guys are not answering my question. I do not want a lesson on your views on safety or triggers, I want to know why the trigger moves down before releasing but I will get my inspection mirror and flashlight and figure it out for myself like I should have done instead of starting this thread. I thought I could get a quick answer but I was mistaken. As has been CORRECTLY pointed out, AR (or M-16) triggers are SURFACE HARDENED. Quoted:
the trigger/hammer is made of one metal, it's not bi-metal; soft on bottom and hard on top. I don't know where you get your bad information but I wouldn't spread it. People have been stoning triggers for centuries, "Case-hardening or surface hardening is the process of hardening the surface of a metal object while allowing the metal deeper underneath to remain soft, thus forming a thin layer of harder metal (called the "case") at the surface. For iron or steel with low carbon content, which has poor to no hardenability of its own, the case-hardening process involves infusing additional carbon into the surface layer" My "BAD INFORMATION" is BASIC metallurgy 101 Google Bill Springfield trigger problems and you will quickly figure out what happens when you start messing with an AR trigger. He was held in very high regard here until his triggers started getting a few rounds through them resulting in full auto. |
| OP, the trigger is moving slightly before release due to geometry and it's not that simple to change. You've done pretty well for yourself if you've gotten it down to 4.5 lbs but I'd leave it alone at this point. Remember, it's NOT just trigger pull numbers but also safety. You don't want to get to a low number and find out you have something unsafe and unreliable. Truly if you need better buy a new design trigger that's meant for that. Last thing you want/need is an accidental discharge hurting or killing someone. |
|
It moves down because it's been designed to move the hammer down. If you want to change the angle of your trigger/hammer interface it wouldn't move down, but it's likely to have safety issues.
FWIW, I've seen an ALG NIB hammer by itself take 1.5lb off of the trigger pull weight. It surprised me how much difference it made. Generally, moving to a lighter hammer spring will reduce trigger weight. If you haven't already used a lighter set look at the JP kits. |
|
Quoted:
As has been CORRECTLY pointed out, AR (or M-16) triggers are SURFACE HARDENED. Google Bill Springfield trigger problems and you will quickly figure out what happens when you start messing with an AR trigger. He was held in very high regard here until his triggers started getting a few rounds through them resulting in full auto. i just googled Bill Springfield. HOLY SHIT! |
|
OP, ignore all of the naysayers. Why listen to yahoos on the Internet, when you can see the simple mechanical problem, and figure out how to fix it yourself? The others are just trying to keep you down. It is probably jealously of skills they don't have. If you are very careful with your Dremel, you can straighten the sear notch on the hammer, so the trigger doesn't have to cock it any further as it releases the hammer. The trigger pull weight will be much lighter when the trigger doesn't have to move the hammer before releasing it.
Step by step pictures of your excellent work in progress will make an awesome lesson for all of the naysayers. |
n't want to be in the same zipcode if he follows your directions!!
|
Quoted:
OP, ignore all of the naysayers. Why listen to yahoos on the Internet, when you can see the simple mechanical problem, and figure out how to fix it yourself? The others are just trying to keep you down. It is probably jealously of skills they don't have. If you are very careful with your Dremel, you can straighten the sear notch on the hammer, so the trigger doesn't have to cock it any further as it releases the hammer. The trigger pull weight will be much lighter when the trigger doesn't have to move the hammer before releasing it. Step by step pictures of your excellent work in progress will make an awesome lesson for all of the naysayers. I love it. 
|
|
Quoted:
OP, ignore all of the naysayers. Why listen to yahoos on the Internet, when you can see the simple mechanical problem, and figure out how to fix it yourself? The others are just trying to keep you down. It is probably jealously of skills they don't have. If you are very careful with your Dremel, you can straighten the sear notch on the hammer, so the trigger doesn't have to cock it any further as it releases the hammer. The trigger pull weight will be much lighter when the trigger doesn't have to miove the hammer before releasing it. Step by step pictures of your excellent work in progress will make an awesome lesson for all of the naysayers. And his enlightened experiment will result in a dangerous sear that will produce a ND (negligent discharge) as opposed to an AD (accidental discharge). Both can get a person killed. The former is due to stupid human error. The latter is unpredictable mechanical failure. KarlSG1's dry humor is appreciated by me, if not by OP, who had his question answered multiple times. He ought not shoot the messenger just because he does not like the message. Screwing with sear geometry can get someone killed. . |
|
Quoted:
the trigger/hammer is made of one metal, it's not bi-metal; soft on bottom and hard on top. I don't know where you get your bad information but I wouldn't spread it. People have been stoning triggers for centuries, the only danger is stoning the sear. I thank you for taking your time to post here but it's BS! Sear ? I didn't know AR15's had one. Post pics of it so we can see what it is. |
|
Here is the AR15 sear engagement surface. The first image is a freeze frame from the video already posted above.
.Attached File This is an actual photo of a real sear engagement surface. Attached File |
|
Those parts are labeled incorrectly. There is no sear in the illustration only a hammer, trigger and discconnector. There is no sear in our AR15 type rifles.
There is a sear in TM-9-1005-319-23&P |
|
Quoted:
Those parts are labeled incorrectly. There is no sear in the illustration only a hammer, trigger and discconnector. There is no sear in our AR15 type rifles. There is a sear in TM-9-1005-319-23&P A sear is simply an interface that causes actuation when contact is broken. The AR15 actually has two sears in the trigger group. The hammer and trigger "let off" when you pull the trigger, and the disconnector "lets off" when you release the trigger. Think of it more as a concept than an individual part. The TM shows an individual part that is called out as the automatic sear, but that is only because that is its only function, to act as a sear in the automatic setting. |
|
Quoted:
Those parts are labeled incorrectly. There is no sear in the illustration only a hammer, trigger and discconnector. There is no sear in our AR15 type rifles. There is a sear in TM-9-1005-319-23&P Respectfully disagree. The labled interface is a sear. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck. Calling it anything other than a sear does not change its function. That interface in the video, drawing and photo is the hammer sear interface. Returning to OP, if he's gotten his trigger down to four pounds without changing springs, he's altered geometry. That is more than engagement surface polishing (hardness concerns notwithstanding). That is scary when done by an amateur. A "Bubba-ized" trigger is a negligent discharge waiting to happen. |
|
Quoted:
I want to know why the trigger moves down before releasing Because the engagement surface on the hammer is machined at an angle to make it happen that way. The angle is there for a couple reasons, but primarily that even with production variations/tolerances between the hammer, trigger and lower receiver it ensures that there won't be a "negative" angle condition. Some manufacturers try to hold that angle to a closer fit to the hammer travel to improve out of the box trigger pull. The hyperbolic shrieking about trigger stoning/polishing is pretty extreme around here. Stock parts are not expensive if you goof one up. A 3 lb trigger is not realistic with stock parts however. I'd suggest a Timney drop in, they make a 3 or 3.5 I think. |
|
A few examples of firearms with sears.
With sear TM 9-1005-223-20 M14 With sear TM 9-1005-211-35 M1911A1 With sear Browning Auto-5 Without sear TM 9-1005-222-12P/1 Rifle, M1 An example of one legal aspect of sear, trigger, hammer and dis connector. Sec. 922r 922r Eta Hammer, trigger, disconnector, sear. They have specific functions and names for technical reasons. Clips, belts and a box magazines and drums all are used to feed firearms as applicable. Each also has their own respective nomenclature for technical reasons. By now OP now has enough info presented, with references, to make an informed decision on the next course of action in regards to achieving his desired trigger pull. Timney, as previously suggested, is a good and safe choice to accomplish that. |
|
Thanks to those that answered my question and not going into safety and all that crap, I really appreciate your kind answers.
With respect to the rest of you guys, I didn't want to hear all the yang yang is the reason for my idiotic answers. I searched the site and the same guys being a smartass here are always doing so to other members on so many other threads, it's like you are wanting to put yourself on a pedestal or you have the need to try and make yourself look more intelligent than you really are so you cut on other members. I have been a member for a little bit but haven't posted much because I hate running into people like you. I did a search of your post replies and I know who to steer away from. I hope you don't take it the wrong way but if you do take it somewhere else. All that said, I do understand now why the hammer takes a dip and reasons for it requiring a positive angle which causes it. This is all I wanted to know, I don't care about the heat treatment and all the other answers I didn't ask for. If you do a search on AR triggers and smoothing them out you will get about 1.2 million answers and explaining polishing them and all the other information that so many of you are saying it's so dangerous yet millions are doing it without issues but I don't care about that part. I already have a 3lb Timney trigger on my other AR and it doesn't dip like my mil-spec trigger on my Colt I was inquiring about and that's why I was curious enough to start a thread and ask but it seems that doesn't work very well either. best regards, Stockton |
|
Quoted:
A few examples of firearms with sears. With sear TM 9-1005-223-20 M14 With sear TM 9-1005-211-35 M1911A1 With sear Browning Auto-5 Without sear TM 9-1005-222-12P/1 Rifle, M1 An example of one legal aspect of sear, trigger, hammer and dis connector. Sec. 922r 922r Eta Hammer, trigger, disconnector, sear. They have specific functions and names for technical reasons. Clips, belts and a box magazines and drums all are used to feed firearms as applicable. Each also has their own respective nomenclature for technical reasons. By now OP now has enough info presented, with references, to make an informed decision on the next course of action in regards to achieving his desired trigger pull. Timney, as previously suggested, is a good and safe choice to accomplish that. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sear_(firearm) Read this and, providing you actually comprehend what you read, you will see very clearly why you are wrong. |
|
Quoted:
I'm just telling the truth nothing else. Quoted:
I'm just telling the truth nothing else. Quoted:
the trigger/hammer is made of one metal, it's not bi-metal; soft on bottom and hard on top. |
|
I mean with the low cost of triggers, it's impossible to recommend modifying the trigger.
If you like the stock trigger and just want an improved one, go with BCM: http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-PNT-Trigger-Assembly-AR15-p/bcm-pnt-ta1.htm It's only 65 bucks, and honestly, that's not that bad at all. You get peace of mind that you won't get a broken trigger and their work is always covered by warranty. |
|
Quoted:
Thanks to those that answered my question and not going into safety and all that crap, I really appreciate your kind answers. With respect to the rest of you guys, I didn't want to hear all the yang yang is the reason for my idiotic answers. I searched the site and the same guys being a smartass here are always doing so to other members on so many other threads, it's like you are wanting to put yourself on a pedestal or you have the need to try and make yourself look more intelligent than you really are so you cut on other members. I have been a member for a little bit but haven't posted much because I hate running into people like you. I did a search of your post replies and I know who to steer away from. I hope you don't take it the wrong way but if you do take it somewhere else. All that said, I do understand now why the hammer takes a dip and reasons for it requiring a positive angle which causes it. This is all I wanted to know, I don't care about the heat treatment and all the other answers I didn't ask for. If you do a search on AR triggers and smoothing them out you will get about 1.2 million answers and explaining polishing them and all the other information that so many of you are saying it's so dangerous yet millions are doing it without issues but I don't care about that part. I already have a 3lb Timney trigger on my other AR and it doesn't dip like my mil-spec trigger on my Colt I was inquiring about and that's why I was curious enough to start a thread and ask but it seems that doesn't work very well either. best regards, Stockton Of course you're going to be treated like an ass after that. Because most grown ups have dealt with people like you and we've figured out it's a waste of breathe. i love how you proudly declare your ignorance about how you don't care about heat treatments. Guys are telling you why you should care. Have that bubba trigger let off a burst at a public range and have the wrong people notice and be in for a world legal hurt. Just because there are a lot of idiots out there doing something that hasn't backfired YET doesn't mean it don't eventually or a good idea But like someone else said. Please post pics and vids to show us how smart you are |
|
Quoted:
I'm just telling the truth nothing else. I don't play online "wanna be in real life" games but since you brought it up I'm sure you do. Why you so butt hurt? I didn't point you or anyone out but since it caused you to itch you must be one of them. Post count. Troll? You'd think these trolls wouldn't go off the deep end and expose themselves so quickly. They'd last longer. |
|
Quoted:
the trigger/hammer is made of one metal, it's not bi-metal; soft on bottom and hard on top. I don't know where you get your bad information but I wouldn't spread it. People have been stoning triggers for centuries, the only danger is stoning the sear. I thank you for taking your time to post here but it's BS! FNG poster comes here and asks his question but then doesn't believe and argues with the answer he was given by people who have been doing this for years. The irony is hilarious! OP go ahead and stone / polish your hammer and trigger sear surfaces. When you do you will learn what I learned in 85 or 86. These parts are only surface hardened and you will remove that thin layer quickly. Once removed the underlaying metal will not hold its shape and will deform after a few rounds. Then you rifle will begin to double or triple when you fire it. But don't stop and listen to us, we're stupid and don't know what we are talking about. You go ahead and learn for yourself. |
|
In case nobody realized, there is a metric shit ton of quality fire control groups on the market today. If you want a cleaner stock type trigger, buy an ALG, ACT. You will stop wetting the bed over the hammer camming downward, because it does it much less on a better FCG.
Better yet, catch a holiday sale on any trigger out there. MBT, SSA, etc. Just do it. It isn't even worth the debate. 10 minute change out. I did two last week and am hitting the range in a few minutes to punch paper. Back in the day I had an arfcommer correct the sear angles and polish a couple stock triggers. I spec'd 5 pounds, even though he said he could get them under that easily. When you do these things, don't wring your panties about the hardness. What you need to do is then modify the safety with a welded dimple, or your FCG will no longer be safe..............on safe. Keep the sear surfaces cleaned and greased and they will live a long time, long enough to save money for a MBT. You will not have a safe stock trigger group set at 3 pounds that will set off primers in a reliable fashion. Back in the day, people would change to a JP speed hammer and a yellow spring to get a more crisp and lighter trigger pull. I still have one Colt with those parts and it is 100% reliable. |
AR Sponsor