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Posted: 7/30/2016 10:43:14 AM EDT
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Ok so here is the Newb question of the day....
I see a lot of talk and pictures of guys building cqb guns and police using them. I have seen photos/videos of police storming houses with them. Here is what I do not understand. I go to the range and smack steel with an AR15. At 100 or 200 yards you can hear the energy delivered by a 3200 fps projectile. I also know guys who hunt with them. So, lets say you are storming a house and you fire on a bad guy. Ooops you missed!!! It seems to me like the projectile could fly through drywall, aluminum siding through a window and hit the neighbor watching a movie in his boxers. Ok so the Police would likely clear the hood before storming but you get my question/concern. I would guess I am missing something here. Please enlighten me.... 
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| There is a lot more to ballistics than velocity. Rifle projectiles typically fragment and yaw when passing through varying barriers like that. Even "barrier blind" projectiles after passing through the first round of dry wall are very unlikely to make it intact through the outside of the home and through the siding and concrete board of another. |
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Quoted: Ok so here is the Newb question of the day.... I see a lot of talk and pictures of guys building cqb guns and police using them. I have seen photos/videos of police storming houses with them. Here is what I do not understand. I go to the range and smack steel with an AR15. At 100 or 200 yards you can hear the energy delivered by a 3200 fps projectile. I also know guys who hunt with them. So, lets say you are storming a house and you fire on a bad guy. Ooops you missed!!! It seems to me like the projectile could fly through drywall, aluminum siding through a window and hit the neighbor watching a movie in his boxers. Ok so the Police would likely clear the hood before storming but you get my question/concern. I would guess I am missing something here. Please enlighten me.... Police usually use heavier rounds than 55gr and shorter barrels than 20" so a 3200fps velocity isn't realistic. A .223/5.56 round will zip through a few layers of drywall if it's unhindered (ie, exiting a bad guy). But the probability of it not only zipping through your wall, but then going outside, retaining enough velocity to not only penetrate your neighbor's house but hit them, is just silly. Also there'll be major deflection in it's flight path after exiting so many barriers. |
Watch this video. Other rounds will also penetrate more than you think, aka 9mm. This video I think they're even using 556 m193, so something specifically made for self defense will fragment even more than this and penetrate even less than a lot of pistol rounds. |
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Quoted:
Ok so here is the Newb question of the day.... I see a lot of talk and pictures of guys building cqb guns and police using them. I have seen photos/videos of police storming houses with them. Here is what I do not understand. I go to the range and smack steel with an AR15. At 100 or 200 yards you can hear the energy delivered by a 3200 fps projectile. I also know guys who hunt with them. So, lets say you are storming a house and you fire on a bad guy. Ooops you missed!!! It seems to me like the projectile could fly through drywall, aluminum siding through a window and hit the neighbor watching a movie in his boxers. Ok so the Police would likely clear the hood before storming but you get my question/concern. I would guess I am missing something here. Please enlighten me.... 
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To add to the above, if you were to choose a 5.56 rifle for use in close quarters or home defense, one would choose a bullet design meant to expand and slow as they traveled through tissue. When looking at pistol ammo, rifle ammo, and even buckshot, all 3 will have similar ability to penetrate drywall and a lot of barriers one would find in a house. External barriers are harder to get through and keep going with enough power to the re-enter another structure and still cause significant damage, but in this regard, all types of firearm are quite similar. However, if one selects a good expanding bullet ammo, the only time where over-penetration and through-wall travel becomes a significant issue is when the projectile misses it's intended target. So comparing a pistol/rifle/shotgun with buckshot, the rifle wins in that it's the most secure to hold and accurately fire (assuming good zeroed optics) and help to keep all shots fired on target. Pistols can be more difficult to shoot accurately over distance and under stress without significant training, and also have a more limited ammo capacity than rifles. Shotguns have the worst ammo capacity and fire multiple projectiles per shot, making it harder to account for keeping all rounds on target. Slugs could be used, but then we get into an over penetration question again. |
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With all due respect to the video and chart, I still will not put my faith in the belief that my projectile would not exit an inner wall and possibly enter another outer wall. Things happen that sometimes defy the odds against it. That said, if it comes down the life of a bad guy in my house as opposed to my life or the life of a loved one.....then by all means I'm taking the shot/shots without the thought of where my bullets end up, whether it is a pistol, shotgun, or AR used in the defense of said house. My story: A couple of years ago I wanted to sight-in a scope I had just mounted on a single-pump, .177 caliber air rifle. It will propel a Copperhead hunting pellet (pointed) between 1,100 and 1,200 f.p.s. The weather outside was not cooperating so I decided to sight the rifle in indoors. I set up a makeshift shooting rest in my bedroom and down the hall (@30 ft.) I placed a half sheet of 3/4" plywood, a 1-1/4" thick phone book against a linen closet door and taped a target to the phone book. I then fired three shots....and had a very nice 3/4" cluster in my target....and in the phone book....and in the plywood....and in and through the linen closet door. What finally stopped those tiny pieces of lead was my mom's old quilt that was folded on the closet floor. I would have NEVER in my wildest dreams thought that those little non-plated chunks of soft lead could have ever penetrated that backing....let alone go through the closet door. Moral of the story: NEVER underestimate the sheer power of any high velocity round (or low velocity ones either  ). |
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Any projectile capable of reliably incapacitating humans will also be able to penetrate all of the relatively soft barriers that you mentioned. Most small caliber high velocity projectiles like 5.56 rely on speed for optimum terminal performance unlike slower heavier projectiles like handgun bullets or buckshot which retain their terminal performance at slower speeds. The barriers you mentioned will not stop any of these rounds, but they will slow them down. Thus, small caliber high velocity rounds are often less lethal after penetrating intermediate barriers than their slower counterparts. 5.56 is actually one of the best choices if over penetration is a concern which is why police tactical teams have transitioned to it from the SMG over the past couple decades. |
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Simply:
Fast and light = easily destabilized resulting in fragmentation (and reduced mass of the individual pieces) Heavy and slow = not easily destabilized resulting in expansion (and no reduction in overall mass) Practical example: take a vinyl record and spin it at 45 RPM. Tap it barely wobbles. Take a much lighter CD and spin it at 22K RPM and tap it; it'll fragment easily. While extreme examples it kinda puts a picture in your head. Plus, anything that will do any damage to a person will easily defeat drywall. |
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Quoted:
So which ammo would be good for home defense? I guess I should get some :-) My agency uses Federal Premium LE "Tactical Tru" .223 ammunition. The projectiles have very thin jackets and are designed to fragment upon impact...much like (or the same as) varmint ammunition. An example... I was at a scene where officers engaged a driver in a vehicle. The .223 rounds did not penetrate the windshield. In fact, one of the officers shot the driver's side-view mirror, the bullet didn't even completely penetrate the mirror housing. However, when they strike soft tissue, the damage is catastrophic. |
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Quoted:
My agency uses Federal Premium LE "Tactical Tru" .223 ammunition. The projectiles have very thin jackets and are designed to fragment upon impact...much like (or the same as) varmint ammunition. An example... I was at a scene where officers engaged a driver in a vehicle. The .223 rounds did not penetrate the windshield. In fact, one of the officers shot the driver's side-view mirror, the bullet didn't even completely penetrate the mirror housing. However, when they strike soft tissue, the damage is catastrophic. Quoted:
Quoted:
So which ammo would be good for home defense? I guess I should get some :-) My agency uses Federal Premium LE "Tactical Tru" .223 ammunition. The projectiles have very thin jackets and are designed to fragment upon impact...much like (or the same as) varmint ammunition. An example... I was at a scene where officers engaged a driver in a vehicle. The .223 rounds did not penetrate the windshield. In fact, one of the officers shot the driver's side-view mirror, the bullet didn't even completely penetrate the mirror housing. However, when they strike soft tissue, the damage is catastrophic. Interesting. So do the officers carry two loads? One to penetrate barriers and one that will fragment quickly? |
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Only the SWAT guys.
The need to penetrate barriers doesn't happen that frequently and when necessary, handgun ammunition will usually suffice. However, the ultimate deciding factor for limiting officers to the fragmentation ammo is liability. Staff doesn't trust officers to 1) hit their mark every time; and 2) remember which magazine has which ammo in a stressful situation. |
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