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Posted: 9/27/2015 11:34:23 PM EDT
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When I put on the magpul moe handguard I noticed some wobble. I thought it was the hand guard but now I'm realizing it is the delta ring that is rotating back and forth. It's a PSA 16" CHF middy and it's my first AR.
Is it normal for the delta ring to have some rotation/wobble to it or is this a defect? Thanks! |
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When I put on the magpul moe handguard I noticed some wobble. I thought it was the hand guard but now I'm realizing it is the delta ring that is rotating back and forth. It's a PSA 16" CHF middy and it's my first AR. Is it normal for the delta ring to have some rotation/wobble to it or is this a defect? Thanks! I took a close look and sure enough, the delta ring is rotating along with the handguard. I suspect it would rotate even more, but the gas tube running through the little hole in the end cap limits the rotation. In any event, the amount of movement is very small and not enough to bother me. BTW, these MOE SL handguards are an excellent choice and quite a bit longer than the previous "fat" MOEs. - CW |
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Thanks, chasw! Good to hear that you're seeing something similar with a Colt delta ring set up. I think mine has a little more movement than what you mentioned, but it isn't a lot (I agree, the gas tube running through the hole in the end cap probably does limit the rotation)...it's enough to notice if you're holding the VFG and then move the gun to one of it's sides.
As long as it isn't a defect and won't cause any issues with function I'm okay with it. I'll have to check out the new MOE SL you mentioned...I wonder if my local gun shop has any in...time to make a trip! Anyone else have any experience with the rotational movement at the delta ring? |
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All delta rings move a little, they are just spring loaded to hold the guards in place. We used to swap guards around in the field to get some to fit the way we preferred - some wanted them tight to prevent making noise, others loose as a goose to get them off easy for cleaning. Handguard length and the slope under the ring are what control it.
Rotation is completely normal. If it wasn't for the gas tube they would go 360. You discover that tightening the barrel nut and find it did, you have to ice pick the gap back up to the top. I built my pistol with B5 grips. 
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All delta rings move a little, they are just spring loaded to hold the guards in place. We used to swap guards around in the field to get some to fit the way we preferred - some wanted them tight to prevent making noise, others loose as a goose to get them off easy for cleaning. Handguard length and the slope under the ring are what control it. Rotation is completely normal. If it wasn't for the gas tube they would go 360. You discover that tightening the barrel nut and find it did, you have to ice pick the gap back up to the top. I built my pistol with B5 grips. Thanks tirod, good to hear! At the end, were you saying you can tighten the barrel nut to help reduce the rotation and just ice pick the gap back up to the top? |
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The function of the delta ring is to squeeze the halves of a drop-in handguard together.
It provide almost zero resistance to rotation unless it touches the gas tube, which it's not supposed to do... the gas tube should float. The engagement between the barrel nut teeth and recesses in the handguard is what limits the rotation of the handguard. I have several rifles with MOE handguards, and only one of them is what I'd call rotation free. The teeth on that barrel nut must be a little wider than standard. You might be able to decrease the amount your handguard will rotate by installing a barrel nut with wider teeth or jamming something in the handguard recesses that fit over the teeth to decrease their width. Joe |
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So, one of the guys at my local gun shop said to bring in the gun and he'd check to make sure the barrel nut wasn't a little loose and contributing to the wobble. I took it in today and he said it was good, just the Delta Ring that is the issue. They have a couple other PSA Middy's in their shop and none of their Delta Rings wobble as much, or even really at all, and he even said mine wobbles a decent amount.
I know it won't affect the way the rifle fires, but is there anything I can do? Will PSA do anything? Is a new delta ring or gas tube necessary? Just a little frustrating now that I think of it...Any non-FF rail I put on it will wobble back and forth. Suggestions, or comments to stop worrying about it, are welcome! 
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Once again It's not the delta ring allowing the handguard to rotate. Joe Thanks, Joe. Sent you a message. I'm a little confused now! I'm messing with it right now and if I grab the delta ring and try to rotate it I get play in it, which in turn moves the hand guard a little bit and if I grab the hand guard and rotate it back and forth the delta ring moves with it. |
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Is there any likelihood that there could be a broken or faulty weld spring? I emailed PSA to see if they think it's something they would take a look at since it's been like this since I received it.
How would I know if it was a broken weld spring or if the assembly happen to be put together slightly off...without taken it apart? |
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As has already been said, the delta ring has NOTHING to do with rotation/wiggle. The handguard has, usually 2 per half, notches in it that hook ONTO the barrel nut teeth. These two grooves (and ONLY those two grooves) are what limit rotation. The delta ring simply holds the guards on, and NOTHING else. The hand guard to barrel nut teeth interface will vary among brands (of both).
Totally normal. |
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Quoted:
As has already been said, the delta ring has NOTHING to do with rotation/wiggle. The handguard has, usually 2 per half, notches in it that hook ONTO the barrel nut teeth. These two grooves (and ONLY those two grooves) are what limit rotation. The delta ring simply holds the guards on, and NOTHING else. The hand guard to barrel nut teeth interface will vary among brands (of both). Totally normal. Thank you all for your responses, I really appreciate it. I'm wondering if I'm not being clear, though...based on some of the responses. I can grab the delta ring and rotate it from side to side a fair amount (when I do this, the hand guard moves also...if I could post a video, I would..also, when I grab the hand guard and rotate it the delta ring does move). The barrel nut is not moving, it appears to be just the delta ring (unless I have the wrong terminology)...the black thingy that sits over the barrel nut and is tapered toward the front of the gun and has concentric lines on it is what is rotating from side-to-side. The guy at the shop made it do the same thing and said, "huh, it does move but it doesn't appear to be the barrel nut". He didn't seem to have too much to say about looking in to it more or how I could alleviate the issue. So, my question is with regard to the fact that I can actually grab the delta ring and rotate it back and forth noticeably...when I grabbed another rifle from the same manufacturer off the shelf I couldn't get it to rotate. I just want to know if noticeable rotation of the delta ring is normal or if I should have it looked at or sent back to PSA to make sure the nothing is wrong with the parts/assembly of the delta ring, weld spring, etc. I apologize if I'm being dense or misunderstanding something!  
Thanks again! |
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Quoted:
Thank you all for your responses, I really appreciate it. I'm wondering if I'm not being clear, though...based on some of the responses. I can grab the delta ring and rotate it from side to side a fair amount (when I do this, the hand guard moves also...if I could post a video, I would..also, when I grab the hand guard and rotate it the delta ring does move). The barrel nut is not moving, it appears to be just the delta ring (unless I have the wrong terminology)...the black thingy that sits over the barrel nut and is tapered toward the front of the gun and has concentric lines on it is what is rotating from side-to-side. The guy at the shop made it do the same thing and said, "huh, it does move but it doesn't appear to be the barrel nut". He didn't seem to have too much to say about looking in to it more or how I could alleviate the issue. So, my question is with regard to the fact that I can actually grab the delta ring and rotate it back and forth noticeably...when I grabbed another rifle from the same manufacturer off the shelf I couldn't get it to rotate. I just want to know if noticeable rotation of the delta ring is normal or if I should have it looked at or sent back to PSA to make sure the nothing is wrong with the parts/assembly of the delta ring, weld spring, etc. I apologize if I'm being dense or misunderstanding something!
Thanks again! Quoted:
Quoted:
As has already been said, the delta ring has NOTHING to do with rotation/wiggle. The handguard has, usually 2 per half, notches in it that hook ONTO the barrel nut teeth. These two grooves (and ONLY those two grooves) are what limit rotation. The delta ring simply holds the guards on, and NOTHING else. The hand guard to barrel nut teeth interface will vary among brands (of both). Totally normal. Thank you all for your responses, I really appreciate it. I'm wondering if I'm not being clear, though...based on some of the responses. I can grab the delta ring and rotate it from side to side a fair amount (when I do this, the hand guard moves also...if I could post a video, I would..also, when I grab the hand guard and rotate it the delta ring does move). The barrel nut is not moving, it appears to be just the delta ring (unless I have the wrong terminology)...the black thingy that sits over the barrel nut and is tapered toward the front of the gun and has concentric lines on it is what is rotating from side-to-side. The guy at the shop made it do the same thing and said, "huh, it does move but it doesn't appear to be the barrel nut". He didn't seem to have too much to say about looking in to it more or how I could alleviate the issue. So, my question is with regard to the fact that I can actually grab the delta ring and rotate it back and forth noticeably...when I grabbed another rifle from the same manufacturer off the shelf I couldn't get it to rotate. I just want to know if noticeable rotation of the delta ring is normal or if I should have it looked at or sent back to PSA to make sure the nothing is wrong with the parts/assembly of the delta ring, weld spring, etc. I apologize if I'm being dense or misunderstanding something!
Thanks again! Normal. There is play there. The delta ring's rotation is only limited by the gas tube, so there will be MINUTE play there. Nothing to be concerned about. I've found the Magpul MOE handguard tends to be fairly snug (less wiggle), but ALL "standard type" handguards will have a degree of wiggle. Totally normal, and nothing to be concerned about. You'd have to go free float if you want/desire absolute ROCK SOLID. |
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Is there any likelihood that there could be a broken or faulty weld spring? I emailed PSA to see if they think it's something they would take a look at since it's been like this since I received it. How would I know if it was a broken weld spring or if the assembly happen to be put together slightly off...without taken it apart? |
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Quoted:
Is there any likelihood that there could be a broken or faulty weld spring? I emailed PSA to see if they think it's something they would take a look at since it's been like this since I received it. How would I know if it was a broken weld spring or if the assembly happen to be put together slightly off...without taken it apart? I experienced this earlier this year with an AR10 that I was installing MOE handguards on. Sure enough, the tack welds on one of the 3 wave washers on my OEM delta ring had detached. This can occur, but it usually requires pulling the delta ring assembly to detect that a tack weld has come loose. My handguard halves and retention ring were holding the handguard, but it was noticeably looser than I felt it should be. Not sure this is your issue, but it's worth a look. Delta ring assemblies are not precision, rocket science pieces of hardware, and I'm sure there are some different spring tensions and such among different brands and models. |
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Quoted:
I experienced this earlier this year with an AR10 that I was installing MOE handguards on. Sure enough, the tack welds on one of the 3 wave washers on my OEM delta ring had detached. This can occur, but it usually requires pulling the delta ring assembly to detect that a tack weld has come loose. My handguard halves and retention ring were holding the handguard, but it was noticeably looser than I felt it should be. Not sure this is your issue, but it's worth a look. Delta ring assemblies are not precision, rocket science pieces of hardware, and I'm sure there are some different spring tensions and such among different brands and models. Quoted:
Quoted:
Is there any likelihood that there could be a broken or faulty weld spring? I emailed PSA to see if they think it's something they would take a look at since it's been like this since I received it. How would I know if it was a broken weld spring or if the assembly happen to be put together slightly off...without taken it apart? I experienced this earlier this year with an AR10 that I was installing MOE handguards on. Sure enough, the tack welds on one of the 3 wave washers on my OEM delta ring had detached. This can occur, but it usually requires pulling the delta ring assembly to detect that a tack weld has come loose. My handguard halves and retention ring were holding the handguard, but it was noticeably looser than I felt it should be. Not sure this is your issue, but it's worth a look. Delta ring assemblies are not precision, rocket science pieces of hardware, and I'm sure there are some different spring tensions and such among different brands and models. Thank you! Did you just replace the weld spring? Any issue other than extra rotational wiggle in the delta ring if a tack weld is detached and not fixed? Oh, and thank you as well, MaverickAA! |
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Thank you! Did you just replace the weld spring? Any issue other than extra rotational wiggle in the delta ring if a tack weld is detached and not fixed? Oh, and thank you as well, MaverickAA! Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Is there any likelihood that there could be a broken or faulty weld spring? I emailed PSA to see if they think it's something they would take a look at since it's been like this since I received it. How would I know if it was a broken weld spring or if the assembly happen to be put together slightly off...without taken it apart? I experienced this earlier this year with an AR10 that I was installing MOE handguards on. Sure enough, the tack welds on one of the 3 wave washers on my OEM delta ring had detached. This can occur, but it usually requires pulling the delta ring assembly to detect that a tack weld has come loose. My handguard halves and retention ring were holding the handguard, but it was noticeably looser than I felt it should be. Not sure this is your issue, but it's worth a look. Delta ring assemblies are not precision, rocket science pieces of hardware, and I'm sure there are some different spring tensions and such among different brands and models. Thank you! Did you just replace the weld spring? Any issue other than extra rotational wiggle in the delta ring if a tack weld is detached and not fixed? Oh, and thank you as well, MaverickAA! Yes, just replaced the weld spring...cheap fix. When we talk about descriptions like "extra rotational wiggle", it's hard to know exactly what that might be to different people without handling the gun. Mine seemed just looser overall when you grabbed the handguard, and I knew something wasn't right. It wasn't near to falling off or the halves disconnecting or anything that bad, but when compared to a fully functional weld spring, you could tell. |
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That's the same way I feel...doesn't feel right compared to many others I've handled. I actually contacted PSA and they already got me a return shipping label and I'm taking it to UPS today. They said they'd take a look at it and fix if necessary. I got right in to someone when I called and there were no questions asked other than what the problem was, the order number, and what email to send the return shipping label to.
Here's hoping the rest goes smoothly! Thank you everyone
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Yes, just replaced the weld spring...cheap fix. When we talk about descriptions like "extra rotational wiggle", it's hard to know exactly what that might be to different people without handling the gun. Mine seemed just looser overall when you grabbed the handguard, and I knew something wasn't right. It wasn't near to falling off or the halves disconnecting or anything that bad, but when compared to a fully functional weld spring, you could tell. Quoted:
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Quoted:
Is there any likelihood that there could be a broken or faulty weld spring? I emailed PSA to see if they think it's something they would take a look at since it's been like this since I received it. How would I know if it was a broken weld spring or if the assembly happen to be put together slightly off...without taken it apart? I experienced this earlier this year with an AR10 that I was installing MOE handguards on. Sure enough, the tack welds on one of the 3 wave washers on my OEM delta ring had detached. This can occur, but it usually requires pulling the delta ring assembly to detect that a tack weld has come loose. My handguard halves and retention ring were holding the handguard, but it was noticeably looser than I felt it should be. Not sure this is your issue, but it's worth a look. Delta ring assemblies are not precision, rocket science pieces of hardware, and I'm sure there are some different spring tensions and such among different brands and models. Thank you! Did you just replace the weld spring? Any issue other than extra rotational wiggle in the delta ring if a tack weld is detached and not fixed? Oh, and thank you as well, MaverickAA! Yes, just replaced the weld spring...cheap fix. When we talk about descriptions like "extra rotational wiggle", it's hard to know exactly what that might be to different people without handling the gun. Mine seemed just looser overall when you grabbed the handguard, and I knew something wasn't right. It wasn't near to falling off or the halves disconnecting or anything that bad, but when compared to a fully functional weld spring, you could tell. |
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Quoted:
Thank you all for your responses, I really appreciate it. I'm wondering if I'm not being clear, though...based on some of the responses. I can grab the delta ring and rotate it from side to side a fair amount (when I do this, the hand guard moves also...if I could post a video, I would..also, when I grab the hand guard and rotate it the delta ring does move). The barrel nut is not moving, it appears to be just the delta ring (unless I have the wrong terminology)...the black thingy that sits over the barrel nut and is tapered toward the front of the gun and has concentric lines on it is what is rotating from side-to-side. The guy at the shop made it do the same thing and said, "huh, it does move but it doesn't appear to be the barrel nut". He didn't seem to have too much to say about looking in to it more or how I could alleviate the issue. So, my question is with regard to the fact that I can actually grab the delta ring and rotate it back and forth noticeably...when I grabbed another rifle from the same manufacturer off the shelf I couldn't get it to rotate. I just want to know if noticeable rotation of the delta ring is normal or if I should have it looked at or sent back to PSA to make sure the nothing is wrong with the parts/assembly of the delta ring, weld spring, etc. I apologize if I'm being dense or misunderstanding something!
Thanks again! Quoted:
Quoted:
As has already been said, the delta ring has NOTHING to do with rotation/wiggle. The handguard has, usually 2 per half, notches in it that hook ONTO the barrel nut teeth. These two grooves (and ONLY those two grooves) are what limit rotation. The delta ring simply holds the guards on, and NOTHING else. The hand guard to barrel nut teeth interface will vary among brands (of both). Totally normal. Thank you all for your responses, I really appreciate it. I'm wondering if I'm not being clear, though...based on some of the responses. I can grab the delta ring and rotate it from side to side a fair amount (when I do this, the hand guard moves also...if I could post a video, I would..also, when I grab the hand guard and rotate it the delta ring does move). The barrel nut is not moving, it appears to be just the delta ring (unless I have the wrong terminology)...the black thingy that sits over the barrel nut and is tapered toward the front of the gun and has concentric lines on it is what is rotating from side-to-side. The guy at the shop made it do the same thing and said, "huh, it does move but it doesn't appear to be the barrel nut". He didn't seem to have too much to say about looking in to it more or how I could alleviate the issue. So, my question is with regard to the fact that I can actually grab the delta ring and rotate it back and forth noticeably...when I grabbed another rifle from the same manufacturer off the shelf I couldn't get it to rotate. I just want to know if noticeable rotation of the delta ring is normal or if I should have it looked at or sent back to PSA to make sure the nothing is wrong with the parts/assembly of the delta ring, weld spring, etc. I apologize if I'm being dense or misunderstanding something!
Thanks again! I know what you are talking about. I have seen it plenty of times. I have never investigated the ones that were looser than others. I imagine the slot where the gas tube fits through might be larger on them. You can probably mask the problem by changing the spring, or using handguards that have locking tabs. But that doesn't meant the delta ring isn't loose as you describe. I'm not sure why some people are going off the deep end about the matter. |
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I know what you are talking about. I have seen it plenty of times. I have never investigated the ones that were looser than others. I imagine the slot where the gas tube fits through might be larger on them. You can probably mask the problem by changing the spring, or using handguards that have locking tabs. But that doesn't meant the delta ring isn't loose as you describe. I'm not sure why some people are going off the deep end about the matter. Thanks! Good to know it seems to be common. As long as something isn't broken or out of spec I can handle it. I'm glad to have PSA taking a look. I'll let ya'll know what the final Dx is. Thanks again for everyone's input! |
| Got her back from PSA a few weeks ago...everything is good to go! They said there wasn't anything wrong with the functionality of it and that play in the rotation of the D-ring was no problem. Took her out last weekend and put a few more rounds through her with my nephew who is shipping off for bootcamp with the Marines come this January! Thanks again for your input on this, everyone! |
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