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Posted: 8/14/2014 6:38:23 PM EDT
| Hey guys I have some questions regarding accuracy in my ar-15. I have a Sig m400 enhanced with very slight modifications. I have an eotech xps2-0 with a fixed front sight base and a magpul buis signt. I just recently replaced the mil spec trigger with a geissele ssa-e and saw some improvement in accuracy. I was shooting 3moa consistantly. After the trigger upgrade it shrunk to about 1.5 to 2moa. This is all with ball ammo mostly m193 and m855. My question would have to be what should I do to squeeze the most accuracy out of my carbine? |
| Do you think I could get 1 moa from an unmagnified sight? I want this to be a tactical carbine but I want to squeeze as much accuracy out of it as possible cause I want to be able to able to keep an 3-5 inch group max at 300 meters. I want it to be able to take out medium sized game or If I have to defend my life from two legged critters I want to be able to keep my groups small enough to make hits consistently in the vitals at those distances. First and foremost this is a hunting rifle or in the worst case a defensive firearm. I just want to be able to make clean kills on game to at least 300 meters and protect myself if the worst case scenario ever happened. |
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Free-floating the barrel would probably help somewhat with consistency, and that would be my next step.
Inexpensive tubes do pretty much the same thing as the more costly ones. Do you reload? I also have the Geissele SSA-E trigger in my M400 and it is a really nice FCG. I also added a Leupold VX-3 1.75-6 scope...and then swapped out the barrel for one without the chrome lining. It does pretty darn good IMHO. 
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| Here's my group with the ssa-ehttp://s1379.photobucket.com/user/hal0persin/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140814_133505409_zps823ac823.jpg.html |
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Quoted:
Do you think I could get 1 moa from an unmagnified sight? I want this to be a tactical carbine but I want to squeeze as much accuracy out of it as possible cause I want to be able to able to keep an 3-5 inch group max at 300 meters. 1 moa from an unmagnified EOTECH? The answer is yes, it's possible, but you'd need very good eyes and use bullseye methods that don't translate well to shooting anything other than bullseyes (dot stacking, dot halving, etc). And all this assumes your rifle is even capable of it, some off the shelf carbines are but most are not. 3-5 inches at 300 yards? At this point, given the equipment mentioned, I'd say no. Sure it's not completely impossible, if a rifle can shoot 1 moa at 100 yards it should be capable of 3 moa at 300 yards... but the limiting factor here is your eyes. It's hard enough at 100 yards, at 300 that's going to be a no using an unmagnified 1 moa dot sight. You're going to need a match grade peep sight, V sight, scope or some magnification to reach that level. I won't go into accurizing you rifle here, I'd have to write a book and the topic has been covered again and again on these forums. |
| I wouldn't expect too much better than 1.5MOA out of that rifle (or Colt, LMT, BCM or any standard chrome lined barrel). Better ammo and magnified optics may help a little. None of these things actually increase the accuracy of your weapon, they help mitigate the flaws in your technique and physical abilities. The optic is more important to me than the trigger... I love nice triggers but practice and really good technique can overcome any accuracy problems you are having as a result of trigger pull. Unfortunately, you can't exactly practice better eyesight. You can only hit what you can see and that is where magnification is critical. |
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OK guys all this advice is much appreciated. Is there anything you guys can tell me about improving my technique? Are there any drills or different ways to train with my rifle and optic to try and make me a better shooter and take that variable out of the equation. Also Is 1.5 moa from a factory rifle with nothing but wood blocks as a rest and no rear support but my hand under the stock a decent amount of accuracy?
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Get a cheap scope (the more magnification the better) and shoot a couple 10 shot groups with as many types/weights of ammo you can comfortably afford to get a better understanding of what your rifle is capable of. The bonus is you'll find which ammo your rifle performs best with. Then go back to your preferred optic.
As to improving, my advice is to go to the range and find the guy shooting teeny tiny groups and ask him very nicely if he'll help you. Half an hour of over the shoulder coaching from a pro will teach you more than any ten books or any thousand message board posts. |
| FM 3-22.9 has a lot of valuable information to offer in regards to marksmanship with a M4/M16 (which translates over to the AR15) weapon platform. |
| When it comes to accuracy with my ARs, I can get Minute of Head at 100 yards very easily. If supported on a bench with bags, with just a non-magnified RDS, I get about 2MOA at that distance. This is with a standard mil-spec type FCG. The fundamental to accuracy is breathing and trigger control. My father taught me that almost 50 years ago. When I went to Marine Corps boot camp, I missed "Expert" by just five points. I got "Sharpshooter" instead. I have gotten better since and that was 36 years ago. Practice, practice, practice. That is how you get better accuracy. |
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Quoted:
Do you think I could get 1 moa from an unmagnified sight? I want this to be a tactical carbine but I want to squeeze as much accuracy out of it as possible cause I want to be able to able to keep an 3-5 inch group max at 300 meters. I want it to be able to take out medium sized game or If I have to defend my life from two legged critters I want to be able to keep my groups small enough to make hits consistently in the vitals at those distances. First and foremost this is a hunting rifle or in the worst case a defensive firearm. I just want to be able to make clean kills on game to at least 300 meters and protect myself if the worst case scenario ever happened. 1moa from a unmagnified sight is a tall order I would advise that you put a decent optic on it and tune in the gun to see what it will do. You will be finding out which ammo works best , if a free float helps you any and just what is the capability of your factory barrel and how well your new trigger can work . Once you get the gun tuned up go back to your irons or red dot and see what you can do with it. Lots of the outcome will depend on your eyesight and ability. Sounds like to me once you tune up your ammo,gun and skill level your gun will do everything you require of it without using a magnified opit but if that goal is really 1moa is doubtfull to me . We talk big on this site but when it comes to the capeability of the AR platform , ammo , trigger and the skill and experience of the trigger puller is of far greator importance than all the other stuff we add or the brand of the rifle . As the shooter gets older and eyesight goes the way it usually goes sight options will come more into play but shooter skill is still a near second |
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Quoted:
OK guys all this advice is much appreciated. Is there anything you guys can tell me about improving my technique? Are there any drills or different ways to train with my rifle and optic to try and make me a better shooter and take that variable out of the equation. Also Is 1.5 moa from a factory rifle with nothing but wood blocks as a rest and no rear support but my hand under the stock a decent amount of accuracy? I use a bipod and a rear bag. Some guys prefer to use a front bag over a bipod. You'll have to figure out what works best for you through trial and error. http://www.triadtactical.com/Triad-Tapered-Rear-Bag.html http://www.triadtactical.com/Red-Tac-Gear-Rear-Bag.html http://www.triadtactical.com/Harris-Swivel-Notched.html http://www.triadtactical.com/Accu-Shot-Atlas-Bipod.html |
| 300 yds/meters is stretching it for a clean kill on a deer with a 5.56 . 200 yds yes it can be done with a good expanding bullet like the 62 grain or 70 grain barnes . I have an eotech xps2-2 the other day I was trying to ambush what ever has been trying to get in my small livestock pens . while setting watching my varmint call a deer come out of the woods and walked to the back of my food plot it is 325 yds from where I was setting I have measeured the distance for obvious reasons . looking at the deer through my eotech at that range there is no way I would attempt that shot reguardless of caliber . my personal experience with the eotech and an aimpoint pro is for shots out to 150 yds they are fine and really shine when the deer are up close and shots are fast . any further out a good scope is needed to make an ethical kill shot . |
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Also understand that your dot in the Eotech covers 1 inch at 100 yds. Your POA can look exactly the same but POI vary by that inch as a start.
Ball ammo will never shoot better than 2-3 moa as well, as that was the gov't requirement of those loads. Even with the best rifle and the best glass in a sled 2 moa is all you could hope for. Get good quality stuff, or better yet roll your own if you really want to see what the rifle can do. Get an actual quality scope with real crosshairs if you want to see what the rifle will do. If you want a dot I use the Leupold FIredot 3-9 and it's fantastic. The dot is tiny but very good and sharp, right at the intersection of the crosshairs. They make it in a 1-4 as well, specific to the .223, but if you are wanting to kill deer you need to place the shot well with the .223. Personally I won't hunt deer with anything smaller than a .243, but quite a few pigs have given up the ghost for me in .223. For deer at less than 200 yds I use a .300 Blackout pistol I built. Functionally it's a 30-30 but in a 2ft, 10.5" barreled package that humps REALLY well at that length and about 6 lbs. It also serves as my truck gun to handle critters with 2+ legs. |
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Get a good barrel and shoot match ammo through it with good glass. It is that simple. Milspec is for reliability in crappy conditions - SPR's, Varmint and Target rigs are for accuracy (and you usually give up a little on weight and maneuverability).
3 shot groups are not indicative of what your rifle is doing - shoot 5 or 10 shot groups and you will see how consistent your barrel is. You may be able to put 3 in an MOA or sub MOA group, but the two flyers make your group a more realistic indicator of how consistent your barrel is and loads are. I have gotten 3 shots touching with military ammo in one group and the next two shots open that group up to 2" at 100 yards. Having good glass is more important than magnification and keep in mind that the fatter your reticle, the less precise you can be unless you can bracket elsewhere on the scope/target picture. The tradeoff is that thin reticles may take more time in busy backgrounds to find. At 300 yards, a 6x or 9x max power is more than sufficient - a 20x is going to make it so you can't track anything and it takes longer to get back on target as well as having a smaller exit pupil and fuzzier image. Accuracy is about managing trade-offs and if you treat your rifle like a machinegun instead of a precision rig, then you will likely have reliability issues. |
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I agree with others that the best and least expensive way to eliminate the largest part of operator error is to magnify the field of view. Start with a cheap 4x or 3-9x variable (Simmons, etc.). I know they are junk or close to it, but for these purposes, and using that scope in full sunlight, you can greatly reduce aiming error. Put it in the cheapest cantilever mount you can find, perhaps the Nikon two piece P-mounts at about $50. Then get some good ammo, shoot from prone with some sort of rest or sandbags and use good technique. That will tell you what the barrel is capable of. If it is up to MOA or close to it, then you can consider getting good glass and mounts.
BTW: Don't sell the current lots of M855 from Lake City short. Attached are two typical groups shot at 100 yards from my 1:9 CMMG melonite barrel One group has a flyer. It was the first shot from a cold barrel. Both groups were shot from the same 500 round bulk LC12 headstamped lot. Note that the tighter group (except for the flyer) was shot with a different scope (Leupold 2.5-10x LPS, which has a much finer cross hair, permitting more careful aim and at 10x. The other group was shot with a Leupold VX-R Patrol 3-9x with Firedot TMR reticle at 9x. The dot on the Patrol is .3 mil, which is 1 MOA. Same rifle, barrel, etc., otherwise. It is hard to shoot sub MOA when your aiming point is larger than the group you are hoping to make. Lake City Federal M855 is much better today than some people realize. Certainly not target grade and subject to fliers, but it will surprise you. 
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3 shot groups are worthless for judging precision. 5 shot groups are better but still suspect. 10 shot groups should be the minimum standard for determining capabilities.
For more info on why, there's a good article right here on this site about it: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/279218_.html |
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Quoted:
Hey guys I have some questions regarding accuracy in my ar-15. I have a Sig m400 enhanced with very slight modifications. I have an eotech xps2-0 with a fixed front sight base and a magpul buis signt. I just recently replaced the mil spec trigger with a geissele ssa-e and saw some improvement in accuracy. I was shooting 3moa consistantly. After the trigger upgrade it shrunk to about 1.5 to 2moa. This is all with ball ammo mostly m193 and m855. My question would have to be what should I do to squeeze the most accuracy out of my carbine? 2 MOA is about as good as it is going to get with M193 and M855. A good trigger, good ammo and good shooting fundamentals are paramount. A free floated barrel is a plus, and there is definitely a difference from one barrel to the next with regard to accuracy. Some barrel makers have a deservedly good reputation. 1.5 MOA is pretty damn good with a stock semi-auto and most of the people who tell you their rifle shoots under a MOA are cherry picking groups or full of shit. |
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Quoted:
I agree with others that the best and least expensive way to eliminate the largest part of operator error is to magnify the field of view. Start with a cheap 4x or 3-9x variable (Simmons, etc.). I know they are junk or close ] All the glass that I regret buying, was the cheap glass. Don't go to the bottom of the barrel. There are Leupold and Vortex scopes available for just a marginal amount more than the cheap walmart shit scopes. You don't want cheap walmart shit scopes. |
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That's a nice looking rifle. Who's barrel? Is that a moa group you shot with ball ammo? The barrel is a fluted Olympic Arms with 1:9 twist and a 5.56 chamber. I've heard a lot of negative reports about their rifles, but have used two of their barrels (first was a fluted 1:8 SUM with .223 chamber...flippin' tack driver!) and have no complaints. 
A shooting buddy has a complete Oly. rifle (far left) and after polishing up the chamber it has been reliable even with steel cased ammo. 
The ammo used was a reload of mine using the only bullets I could find after the Sandy Hook tragedy (Hornady 40 gn. V-MAX) and I simply added a safe level of IMR powder without further development. BTW, you don't have to spend a fortune to get into reloading, as shown by my elaborate setup that has been in use since around 1980. 
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If you are shooting under 2moa with 855, you are approaching the mechanical limits of accuracy already.
That little chunk of steel inside the lead inside the copper jacket is NEVER in the same place twice. I'm not talking about the best three shot group of the day; Do ten rounds slow fire, and if it's under two inches you are already a hero. Note I did NOT say it was impossible. Just getting close to the maximum accuracy available in that round. Switch to BH-- 77gr if you have a 1/7 or 1/8 twist- and use that as a baseline. It will give you better feedback on your shooting techniques and equipment. |
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OK I think that's what I'll do. What ammo do you guys reccomend. I don't reload yet but I plan on it. I have a 16 inch barrel with a 1:7 twist rate and it's a chrome lined bore and chamber. Go and buy several brands/manufacturers ammo starting at 64 grain up to 77 and see what it shoots best. My 14.5 and 14.7" rifles both like the same ammo but that is just a coincidence. They like Hornady 64 grain ballistic tips, 75 grain open tip match, and Prvi Partisan 69 grain open tip match rounds... My 16" "Recce" clone loves the Hornady TAP 75 grain ammo the best of all I've tried. It's a trial and error scenario. But I agree with Hydra above. The rifle is always going to be better than the shooter is because it's an always constant tool. You, the human is the slightly changing variable. More practice is in order. Learn to shoot those well before moving to optics. I can literally shoot irons better than my scope anything 150 yards or closer than a 3x9x40 scope. Out past that is where the optic really shines but get the fundamentals down first. Hope this helps OP... |
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Quoted:
OK guys all this advice is much appreciated. Is there anything you guys can tell me about improving my technique? Are there any drills or different ways to train with my rifle and optic to try and make me a better shooter and take that variable out of the equation. Also Is 1.5 moa from a factory rifle with nothing but wood blocks as a rest and no rear support but my hand under the stock a decent amount of accuracy? Controlled breathing and consistent trigger pull is paramount. If those two are out of sync then your going to have your groups open up. Is 1.5 moa from a facotry rifle decent??? Its more than decent... |
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Quoted:
Get a cheap scope (the more magnification the better) and shoot a couple 10 shot groups with as many types/weights of ammo you can comfortably afford to get a better understanding of what your rifle is capable of. The bonus is you'll find which ammo your rifle performs best with. Then go back to your preferred optic. As to improving, my advice is to go to the range and find the guy shooting teeny tiny groups and ask him very nicely if he'll help you. Half an hour of over the shoulder coaching from a pro will teach you more than any ten books or any thousand message board posts. Absolutely true!!! |
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Quoted:
I agree with others that the best and least expensive way to eliminate the largest part of operator error is to magnify the field of view. Start with a cheap 4x or 3-9x variable (Simmons, etc.). I know they are junk or close to it, but for these purposes, and using that scope in full sunlight, you can greatly reduce aiming error. Put it in the cheapest cantilever mount you can find, perhaps the Nikon two piece P-mounts at about $50. Then get some good ammo, shoot from prone with some sort of rest or sandbags and use good technique. That will tell you what the barrel is capable of. If it is up to MOA or close to it, then you can consider getting good glass and mounts. BTW: Don't sell the current lots of M855 from Lake City short. Attached are two typical groups shot at 100 yards from my 1:9 CMMG melonite barrel One group has a flyer. It was the first shot from a cold barrel. Both groups were shot from the same 500 round bulk LC12 headstamped lot. Note that the tighter group (except for the flyer) was shot with a different scope (Leupold 2.5-10x LPS, which has a much finer cross hair, permitting more careful aim and at 10x. The other group was shot with a Leupold VX-R Patrol 3-9x with Firedot TMR reticle at 9x. The dot on the Patrol is .3 mil, which is 1 MOA. Same rifle, barrel, etc., otherwise. It is hard to shoot sub MOA when your aiming point is larger than the group you are hoping to make. Lake City Federal M855 is much better today than some people realize. Certainly not target grade and subject to fliers, but it will surprise you. http://i1366.photobucket.com/albums/r772/gbloss/13_zpsfca4b46b.jpg http://i1366.photobucket.com/albums/r772/gbloss/photo_zpsad91a25c.jpg Extremely nice shooting there and especially with M855 that is a 3-4 MOA ammo at best. I'd love to see some groups with an OTM that your rifle absolutely loves... |
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