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Posted: 2/5/2014 9:52:10 PM EDT
| Im a newbie here but have been into ARs for 13yrs. I never really like Middys until now and my new build is gonna be a Middy. My question is since i dont know much about Mids is can I use a 16" M4 carbine gas system without a FSB and install middy handgaurds and just use a gas block to fit under the forend or do i have to buy amiddy gas system barrel. Basicly i dont care about the gas system im just looking for the middy look so it that possible with carbine gas system barrel |
| As already mentioned; building a mid-length AR15 requires a barrel with a mid-length gas port. The build you are wanting to do is still a 16" carbine; but with a low-profile gas block, and a free-float hand guard in place of a carbine-length hand guard with a front sight base. |
| thanks guys that was a big help and it also made me realize something that I previously did not, I had planned on using a regular two piece mid length handguard but if I don't use a mid length gas systemthen I can't use a mid-length two piece handguard because it wouldn't be a mid-length gas system correct? So I do have to use a free float tube? Thanks guys as simple as that seems I completely overlooked it and never really gave it much thought so I'm happy I asked this question now cuz its save me money.do you guys have any suggestions on building a carbine length hey are but with a longer handguard like at 9 or 10 inch or whatever any ideas would be great! |
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Quoted: thanks guys that was a big help and it also made me realize something that I previously did not, I had planned on using a regular two piece mid length handguard but if I don't use a mid length gas systemthen I can't use a mid-length two piece handguard because it wouldn't be a mid-length gas system correct? So I do have to use a free float tube? Thanks guys as simple as that seems I completely overlooked it and never really gave it much thought so I'm happy I asked this question now cuz its save me money.do you guys have any suggestions on building a carbine length hey are but with a longer handguard like at 9 or 10 inch or whatever any ideas would be great! You can do a dissipator build with a second "faux" FSB and a cap, but it's going to add weight. Look at the Centurion C4 freefloat handguards at Rainier Arms. Easy install. Solid as a rock. They have a 9" |
| I know that's why you said free float and that's why I thanked you guys for saving me time and money cause I didn't think that only a free float would work but now after thinking about it seemed so stupid of me to not notice that. I don't like the dissapator ar's and I don't want a FSB so free float will have to be what Im gonna use, any idea how much barrel will show with regular mid length free float handgaurds, again thanks so much guys |
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There should be some pics in the midlength pic thread with a 9" FF If you have a 16" with an A2 FH, you are looking at roughly 7ish inches of exposed barrel. 12" FF is the flavor of the day with most of the guys. thanks a ton!!! you have no idea how big of a help you and the others are and how much I extremely appreciate the very detailed info!!! |
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There should be some pics in the midlength pic thread with a 9" FF If you have a 16" with an A2 FH, you are looking at roughly 7ish inches of exposed barrel. 12" FF is the flavor of the day with most of the guys. I just looked thru the middy pic thread and seen a lot of nice builds but I don't think I like the 12" handgaurds, it seems like extra weight that's not needed and I just don't like how it looks. I know its a dumb question but I really don't know since I never cared for middy's in the past but what's sizes do mid handgaurds come in/ Thanks!!! |
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Im a newbie here but have been into ARs for 13yrs. I never really like Middys until now and my new build is gonna be a Middy. My question is since i dont know much about Mids is can I use a 16" M4 carbine gas system without a FSB and install middy handgaurds and just use a gas block to fit under the forend or do i have to buy amiddy gas system barrel. Basicly i dont care about the gas system im just looking for the middy look so it that possible with carbine gas system barrel What in the sam hell do you mean by "middy look"? Because a "middy" is not a "look", it's a colloquialism for a type of gas-system. Most specifically, it means a mid-length gas-system. Hence....."middy". It's not a "middy" if it doesn't have a mid-length gas-system, and "middy" isn't a term used to describe a "look'.....so what the hell are you trying to build, a "Garand style" AR?? 
"Middy". I do not think that word means what you think it means. And, seriously, start having someone proof-read your posts......that is painful to read. |
| I apologize if I didn't proof read Ill make sure I do so more often, Im willing to bet you know exactly what I meant by middy look, instead of being a smart ass to someone who is new here for less then 10 days why not just be somewhat cordial and make your point with out the sarcasm. I seriously don't understand the need for people to break balls when its no where near warranted. thanks for your input tho |
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I ASSUME what you want is a carbine length gas system with longer than standard carbine length hand guards. As already mentioned, get a low gas block to replace what you have and put any length hand guard (free float) you like on it. There are even longer hand guards that can be used that are modified (cut out) to allow the use of the stock FSB. And, as suggested, try to be more clear by posting in something close to standard American English.
Google search IS your friend. 
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| A middy is certainly as you said a type of gas system but it also certainly has a unique look to it hence my reason for saying Middy look. Since Im not using a midlength gas system I thought saying middy look explained pretty well what Im looking to do with my build. Im willing to bet if we asked the people who read this thread they will almost all understand exacxtly what I meant. I hate getting myself dragged into these types of posts but I just cant understand why you felt the need to rip into me about something so trivial as this. Im done commenting on it. Again sorry for the poor sentence structure/grammar |
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I ASSUME what you want is a carbine length gas system with longer than standard carbine length hand guards. As already mentioned, get a low gas block to replace what you have and put any length hand guard (free float) you like on it. There are even longer hand guards that can be used that are modified (cut out) to allow the use of the stock FSB. And, as suggested, try to be more clear by posting in something close to standard American English. Google search IS your friend. thank you and that's exactly what Im looking to do with my build and the info provided was a huge help. I apologize for my poor typing, Ive been up since yesterday at 7am and Im a little out of it but I do appreciate you bringing it to my attention because it is bothersome for those who read my posts. |
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I apologize if I didn't proof read Ill make sure I do so more often, Im willing to bet you know exactly what I meant by middy look, instead of being a smart ass to someone who is new here for less then 10 days why not just be somewhat cordial and make your point with out the sarcasm. I seriously don't understand the need for people to break balls when its no where near warranted. thanks for your input tho No....that's the point. I and everyone else are happy to help you, but you aren't speaking the AR language yet. "Middy" does not mean what you think it means. It's not a "look", it's a type of gas system. A "Middy" can look like an M16A1, and M4A1, an BlockII SOPMOD M4, an M16A4, and anything else one's mind can imagine. All "Middy" means is that it has a mid-length gas-system. There is NO THING called a "middy look". Middies are ARs with mid-length gas-systems, not a "look". For Christ's sake, go through the "Show Me Your Middies" thread, and see all the different ways "Middies" look......they all look different, none look the same. Hell, my AR is in there, and it doesn't look like any other in that thread. So, one more time, what are you looking to own? What specifically do you (incorrectly) mean by "middy"? Only once we understand what you mean, can we help you. Maybe you could go through the picture threads, find some that you like, and post them here in this thread of yours. That way we can figure out what you're actually asking about. |
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No....that's the point. I and everyone else are happy to help you, but you aren't speaking the AR language yet. "Middy" does not mean what you think it means. It's not a "look", it's a type of gas system. A "Middy" can look like an M16A1, and M4A1, an BlockII SOPMOD M4, an M16A4, and anything else one's mind can imagine. All "Middy" means is that it has a mid-length gas-system. There is NO THING called a "middy look". Middies are ARs with mid-length gas-systems, not a "look". For Christ's sake, go through the "Show Me Your Middies" thread, and see all the different ways "Middies" look......they all look different, none look the same. Hell, my AR is in there, and it doesn't look like any other in that thread. So, one more time, what are you looking to own? What specifically do you (incorrectly) mean by "middy"? Only once we understand what you mean, can we help you. Maybe you could go through the picture threads, find some that you like, and post them here in this thread of yours. That way we can figure out what you're actually asking about. Quoted:
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I apologize if I didn't proof read Ill make sure I do so more often, Im willing to bet you know exactly what I meant by middy look, instead of being a smart ass to someone who is new here for less then 10 days why not just be somewhat cordial and make your point with out the sarcasm. I seriously don't understand the need for people to break balls when its no where near warranted. thanks for your input tho No....that's the point. I and everyone else are happy to help you, but you aren't speaking the AR language yet. "Middy" does not mean what you think it means. It's not a "look", it's a type of gas system. A "Middy" can look like an M16A1, and M4A1, an BlockII SOPMOD M4, an M16A4, and anything else one's mind can imagine. All "Middy" means is that it has a mid-length gas-system. There is NO THING called a "middy look". Middies are ARs with mid-length gas-systems, not a "look". For Christ's sake, go through the "Show Me Your Middies" thread, and see all the different ways "Middies" look......they all look different, none look the same. Hell, my AR is in there, and it doesn't look like any other in that thread. So, one more time, what are you looking to own? What specifically do you (incorrectly) mean by "middy"? Only once we understand what you mean, can we help you. Maybe you could go through the picture threads, find some that you like, and post them here in this thread of yours. That way we can figure out what you're actually asking about. Relax. Others have already answered his question. If you read through the thread, you can see that and he was thankful for it. If it's still not clear, he wants a 9" handguard/rail without the need for a FSB. Breathe....... |
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thank you and I apologize for my poor typing, Ive been up since yesterday at 7am and Im a little out of it but I do appreciate you bringing it to my attention because it is bothersome for those who read my posts. Quoted:
Quoted:
I ASSUME what you want is a carbine length gas system with longer than standard carbine length hand guards. As already mentioned, get a low gas block to replace what you have and put any length hand guard (free float) you like on it. There are even longer hand guards that can be used that are modified (cut out) to allow the use of the stock FSB. And, as suggested, try to be more clear by posting in something close to standard American English. Google search IS your friend. It's just that we need to understand exactly what you want to be able to give good advice. Here is a carbine length gas system carbine I have with an extended FF rail with standard FSB. It is not much longer but it shows what I am talking about as far as using the standard FSB. 
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Quoted:Relax. Others have already answered his question. If you read through the thread, you can see that and he was thankful for it. If it's still not clear, he wants a 9" handguard/rail without the need for a FSB. Breathe....... Dude, the best info we have gotten is that he wants "middy hand guards" without an FSP. That's like saying you want a PB&J without any bread. We all know that "hand-guards" (generally speaking) have to have an FSP and front ring to install them to, so what should we "assume" the OP actually means? Does the OP actually mean a free-float rail system of some sort? No one has answered his question yet, because no one knows what he is asking about. Hand-guards and rails are two completely different things. |
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OP:
Middies can look completely different. Here's one that just got posted in this thread, a few posts above;
Now, here's my "middy".... 
See how they look totally different? The upper one has a Front Sight Post (FSP), and the lower one does not. The upper one has some sort of hand-guard system, and the lower one has a rail system. Do either of these represent anything close to what you want, or can you provide us with a picture of what you want? |
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OP: Middies can look completely different. Here's one that just got posted in this thread, a few posts above; http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v114/wetidlerjr/Colt%201911/BCM16_CARBINE/BCM16M4003Medium.jpg Now, here's my "middy".... http://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae41/pugcra/bcm003_zps07228ec5.jpg See how they look totally different? The upper one has a Front Sight Post (FSP), and the lower one does not. The upper one has some sort of hand-guard system, and the lower one has a rail system. Do either of these represent anything close to what you want, or can you provide us with a picture of what you want? Actually mine is a carbine gas system with a VLTOR FF rail. Go to: VLTOR FF CASV-EL RAIL |
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Please buddy, the OP is confused enough. Let's just stick to the basics until he grasps the lingo. O.k.? |
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the top one looks like a Carbine not a middy to me but again you knew exactly what I meant by middy look, which is a carbine with a 9-12 inch handgaurds on a 16" barrel, just give it a rest
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OP: Middies can look completely different. Here's one that just got posted in this thread, a few posts above; http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v114/wetidlerjr/Colt%201911/BCM16_CARBINE/BCM16M4003Medium.jpg Now, here's my "middy".... http://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae41/pugcra/bcm003_zps07228ec5.jpg See how they look totally different? The upper one has a Front Sight Post (FSP), and the lower one does not. The upper one has some sort of hand-guard system, and the lower one has a rail system. Do either of these represent anything close to what you want, or can you provide us with a picture of what you want? |
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Please buddy, the OP is confused enough. Let's just stick to the basics until he grasps the lingo. O.k.? Quoted:
Please buddy, the OP is confused enough. Let's just stick to the basics until he grasps the lingo. O.k.? no offense bro but Im not even a little bit confused but I cant say the same for you since your picture with the vltor handgaurds is a carbine gas system not a midlength, you might want to go back and re learn some things yourself before you go and be little other people thanks everyone for the help and NoVaRight lets just end it here, theres no need to say anything else unless it something constructive and that goes for me to |
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Please buddy, the OP is confused enough. Let's just stick to the basics until he grasps the lingo. O.k.? Quoted:
Please buddy, the OP is confused enough. Let's just stick to the basics until he grasps the lingo. O.k.? Feel free to stick to whatever makes you happy. The CASV-EL is not "some sort of hand-guard system" and the rifle is not a middy. Maybe someone other than the OP is confused. 
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Quoted:Feel free to stick to whatever makes you happy. The CASV-EL is not "some sort of hand-guard system" and the rifle is not a middy.
Maybe someone other than the OP is confused. How does this help the OP, who still thinks that "Middy" means something about hand-guards or rails, or their length? |
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Feel free to stick to whatever makes you happy. The CASV-EL is not "some sort of hand-guard system" and the rifle is not a middy. Maybe someone other than the OP is confused. Quoted:
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Please buddy, the OP is confused enough. Let's just stick to the basics until he grasps the lingo. O.k.? Feel free to stick to whatever makes you happy. The CASV-EL is not "some sort of hand-guard system" and the rifle is not a middy. Maybe someone other than the OP is confused. wetidlerjr, I appreciate the help with that statement about being confused, very much so!!! (this isn't meant just to you wetidlerjr I just want to clear up my reason for the thread and clear up some of the posts) I bought my first AR back in 2002 and I know a lot about them. When I said I'm a newbie it was meant in terms of being new to this website. My question was about being able to use a carbine gas system and still use a mid length handgaurd which you guys very graciously helped me out with as I over looked the fact that I couldn't use a 2 piece handgaurd and can only use a free float. That was the only area I needed help with. I do apologize for my poor grammar and sentence structure but as I had said previously I was up for almost 24hrs. I'm not sure why the one poster took so much offense to me using the term "middy" to refer to a certain look which a middy certainly has. Of course not every middy looks exactly the same but all middys have a basic look that they all share as does a carbine and a rifle length so me referring to me looking for my AR build to have a Middy look has me baffled as to why the one poster took so much offense to it and felt the need to blow it up intoan argument. I apologize to you guys forgetting caught up with the BS unrelated sidebar talk as that's not what Im about and I just wanted to say I apologize for my role in it and also wanted to thank those who posted useful info as it was a big help to me and very much appreciated. thanks guys! |
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I recently installed a Samson Evolution rail on my carbine length AR. The one in the pic is a 12.37 inch rail but they also make other length rails such as 7, 9, 10, etc. The install uses your existing barrel nut and was very easy to do. There are other FF rails that use the USGI barrel nut such as the Fortis REV and Troy Alpha and others. My next project will be a SS Gen2 rail for my mid-length, which requires changing out the barrel nut. |
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Hope you find the handguard you are looking for  thanks I think Im almost there. I cant believe I didn't think about only being able to use a free float tube so that set me back a bit cause I was gonna use a Surefire M85 handgaurds as I really like their tubes and I use the Surefire M73 on both my carbines. |
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http://<a href=http://i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt274/yancey2k/evorail_zpsf8aa6690.jpg</a>" /> I recently installed a Samson Evolution rail on my carbine length AR. The one in the pic is a 12.37 inch rail but they also make other length rails such as 7, 9, 10, etc. The install uses your existing barrel nut and was very easy to do. There are other FF rails that use the USGI barrel nut such as the Fortis REV and Troy Alpha and others. My next project will be a SS Gen2 rail for my mid-length, which requires changing out the barrel nut. very nice looking build!!! I cant believe at one time I didn't like midlengths! question: If I do use a Mid gas system barrel then I can use a 2 piece tube with a low profile gas block or do I still need a free float to use a short gas block since theres no handgaurds cap to hold the handgaurds in place?. I don't want to use a fixed FSB, I have them on both my carbines and want to try a flip up front sight |
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They do make aftermarket railed gas blocks with a hand guard cap, but it's going to look silly in my opinion.
If you are adamant about not wanting a fixed FSB and want to utilize flip-up BUIS, then a low profile gas black coupled with a free float handguard would be the most practical way to go. When you say you would like to "try a flip-up sight" are you inferring that you intend to use this as your primary sight or backup for an optic? edit: A quick google search revealed a two-piece MOE hand guard with a railed gas block; granted this is a carbine-length gas system. I recant my statement regarding the silliness of a gas block and two piece hand guard, this rifle looks pretty damn slick! 
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Thanks for that pic and your right that does look good. I appreciate the help there!!! To answer your question the iron sights are gonna be my secondary sights, I think I'm gonna go with a low magnified scope instead of a reflex which is what I've been using for years.
So that gas block has a rail I can see but it also has a handgaurd cap? Quoted:
They do make aftermarket railed gas blocks with a hand guard cap, but it's going to look silly in my opinion. If you are adamant about not wanting a fixed FSB and want to utilize flip-up BUIS, then a low profile gas black coupled with a free float handguard would be the most practical way to go. When you say you would like to "try a flip-up sight" are you inferring that you intend to use this as your primary sight or backup for an optic? edit: A quick google search revealed a two-piece MOE hand guard with a railed gas block; granted this is a carbine-length gas system. I recant my statement regarding the silliness of a gas block and two piece hand guard, this rifle looks pretty damn slick! http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff93/stratocaster81/Stag/Stag3-900b.jpg |
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Ok so OP I have to ask, you do know that skonie's pic above is not a "middy" correct? Not trying to be an ass just kinda confused. I don't mind your question and I don't know since he didn't say which gas system it is a carbine or mid, did you think it was a 18" or 20" and that's why you asked me? |
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I don't mind your question and I don't know since he didn't say which gas system it is a carbine or mid, did you think it was a 18" or 20" and that's why you asked me? Quoted:
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Ok so OP I have to ask, you do know that skonie's pic above is not a "middy" correct? Not trying to be an ass just kinda confused. I don't mind your question and I don't know since he didn't say which gas system it is a carbine or mid, did you think it was a 18" or 20" and that's why you asked me? Ok I went back and read everything. I guess I was getting confused with all the middy look talk. Anyways you pretty much can use whatever length rail on whatever gas system as long as the rail is free floated. Technically you could use a 7 inch rail on a mid gas length and have some of the gas tube and gas block hanging out. If you want two piecemidlength handguards that are non free floated you will need a way to attach them at the mid length gas block k position. . Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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The hand guard cap is a separate piece from any type of gas block, you can put one on if it does not have one, or you can take it off if it has one, you just have to be able to remove gas block (or FSB) to do that. This only works if the muzzle device is removable, so the cap will slide on and/or off. If you have a Free float tube with a top rail, or short section of rail, you can put your front sight on it, instead of the gas block. You can install the MOE mid-length hand guards on a carbine length barrel, but it is a pain in the ass, requires low profile gas block under hand guard and another "gas block" in front of that to hold the cap, I have done it several times just for shits and giggles, but it takes some" backyard" engineering depending on barrel diameter, and the "experts" on here will grind their teeth and make fun of you, one thing to remember, it is your gun and you can do what whatever you feel like and you do not need approval from anyone or a good reason to do it other than "because I wanted too". As long as you are within ATF parameters. If you have mid-length handguards on a carbine it does" look" like a middy, even if it is not. If this is what you are trying to do, let me know, I will give you some tips on how it can be done. Be prepared to have all hell break loose from the experts though. |
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But I cant help myself, FYI carbine length gas port roughly 7 inches of exposed barrel with either a FSB or lo pro midlength is roughly 9 inches of exposed barrel with either FSB or lo pro. but it doesn't take a genius to figure out what you meant by a broad general term of middy look. or at least to me it meant any handguard 9" of length or greater. but maybe I need the grammar police to correct me. Also the FSP in the pin that sits inside of a FSB |
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Alright, I'll weigh in.
I understand what you wanted, OP, and where you are in the thought process now, but I have to ask why you don't/didn't like the idea of a mid-length gas-system. It seems like you like the idea of the longer handguard, but are/were going to extra lengths to hold onto the carbine gas-system. Is there a reasoning for you not wanting to just make your life easier and get a mid-length barrel/upper? 14.5/cabine 16/middy 20/rifle Is a good rule of thought IMO, but there are many who deviate from this for one reason or another. Just curious what yours is? If the mid-length gas-system was something new and unproven, I could understand sticking to the tried and true carbine, but it's well beyond that and a carbine gas in a 16" barrel just seems like a hold-over from when there wasn't another widely avail. option. |
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I agree, I am a fan of mid-length, all my 14.5s are mid-length, in various calibers including 308 and 50 Beowulf, I like the middys and shorter barrels period regardless of what any one else thinks is optimum for whatever reason they have. Its your gun do it like you want. |
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