AR Sponsor
Posted: 5/28/2013 9:02:06 PM EDT
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I tried searching but could not find anything here. My question is simple, how difficult is it to mate a complete lower to another companies upper. I see there is something called an accu wedge, would that make sure the fit is tight? Is it adjustable? Please bear with me, I have a lot of questions and don't exactly know how to sift through the BS.
It seems there are so many different uppers and lowers, just buy a lower and match it to an upper and you have the rifle you want. Instead of buying something and changing everything. Build from the beginning with the parts you want, it would seem in the long run to be less expensive. I like the idea of a Vltor VIS upper with a billet lower. I want to buy one AR that will last a long time and not have to buy one and sell it to buy something else I like better. I want to do it right the first time and just forget it. Maybe have 2 uppers and one lower, a 5.56 and a .300ACC. I'm not looking to build 10 ARs, I would love to but it's not practical for me. I just want the almost perfect rifle built once and have some other guns to shoot for fun. This one is for home defense and to take to the range to work on skills, along with having fun of course. The cost of ammo though is a factor. The others would be to go to the range and have fun, I love shooting, like some cowboy type guns, ammo would be a lot less. I can't see expending a lot of ammo at $.50+ a round. Next question are there any really good builders of ARs in central Texas? Around the Ft. Hood area? I'm thinking with all these parts out there maybe someone could build me one. The modularity of the AR is amazing. If you know anything about guitars for instance the Fender guitar has that kind of modularity the neck is bolted on, the Gibson not because of the set neck(it's glued one). You can take so many different necks and bodies and build your own Frankenstein with just average skills. I know, I have done it, so many companies make bodies and necks. I see the same modularity with the AR. Plus I am familiar with them from my days in the Army. I think I can still take one apart with my eyes closed I did t so many times it's ingrained in my brain. |
| If you build it from scratch, there should be absolutely no play between upper/lower. The only time I've seen a sloppy or even lightly loose fit is in store bought rifles and ones in which a complete upper was purchased independent of the lower. If you get into very fine details while building, use quality parts and hand fit every component, you will end up with a rifle that is as good as it gets. I live in far west Texas, but if you ever head this way I will be glad to loan you the tools and shop space, as well as walk you through your own build. If you need to blind pin, cerakote etc, I have setups for all that as well....By the way, Congrats on the move from NY to Ft Hood, TX. |
| there should be no problem mating uppers and lowers. slop is not that bad, unless is excessive. Also good luck staying at one AR, if you buy two uppers and one lower you are just setting yourself to get two ARs and once you have two, well they just reproduce like bunnies. |
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My advise is to buy a stripped lower and install the lower parts kit yourself. It is extremely easy. I did it on my first build. You dont need any special tools.
Then just buy a complete upper assembly (Upper receiver, barrel, and maybe the rail you want) Drop in the BCG and charging handle. Go shoot |
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It sounds like a plan. Why spend $2000 and then have to change out the trigger and stock plus add some other details like a better charging handle, ambi controls and so on for another $1000. I figure so many companies make quality uppers just build your own lower. As I said I am familiar with the M16 and the people here will help as they have already done.
I think the UBR stock would be best for me. To buy a rifle and then add another $245 for the stock is crazy. I might as well just buy the complete upper and matching bolt. Thanks all and thanks for the kind offers. I like the idea of painting it to match my environment. |
| And yes I am a little worried about buying one and getting hooked, especially if I build one. That's what happened with the guitars, I built one and 30 later I was like enough. I am a lot better guitar player than I am shooter though. The more I built the better I got and more I learned. At this point in my life I don't think I want to dot hat, I have some hobbies. I really just want to go shoot, but I know that I will be tempted to build a few with different parts to do different things. If the cost of ammo wasn't so high I might think about it. I would rather use the money on ammo and on shooting. |
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If you build it from scratch, there should be absolutely no play between upper/lower. The only time I've seen a sloppy or even lightly loose fit is in store bought rifles and ones in which a complete upper was purchased independent of the lower. If you get into very fine details while building, use quality parts and hand fit every component, you will end up with a rifle that is as good as it gets. I live in far west Texas, but if you ever head this way I will be glad to loan you the tools and shop space, as well as walk you through your own build. If you need to blind pin, cerakote etc, I have setups for all that as well....By the way, Congrats on the move from NY to Ft Hood, TX. wrong. if the receivers are built to spec, they will have some play. doesnt matter if its company A and company B, stripped or assembled. the receivers were designed to fit loosely for good reasons. tight fitting gun parts cause failure when things start getting dirty - see ak47. tight fitting receivers make it difficult to field strip. some companies have tried to appease the newb crowd by making their receivers tighter than spec, sometimes it reduces play, sometimes it makes the receiver so tight it requires filing to get it to fit properly. OP any in spec upper should pop right on to any in spec lower. these dumbass companies that try to make their receivers tighter than spec to reduce play screw things up, you cant have your cake and eat it too. i have two receivers that required filing and/or dremmeling to get them to fit without force. i understand budgets and practicality...but you will want to invest in a lower for each rifle. you say you want it for home defense...but what are you going to do WHEN you go to the range and your rifle/lower breaks, malfunctions, or isnt safe to operate? you cant even assume you will be without the rifle for just 1-2 weeks waiting for parts...if you've been eyeballing retailers lately you know parts have been scarce since december. not sure about builders, i assemble my own. you can mail the parts to adco, rainier, etc if you dont mind that route. if you are decent with your hands you can use the money you would spend at a gunsmith to invest in the tools to assemble them yourself. its not very difficult, you can check out the stickies in the build it yourself section to get an idea what's involved. the plus side is WHEN something on your rifle breaks, you will have the tools to fix it yourself, even if you dont have plants to build more than 1-2 rifles/uppers. |
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Good info thank you. I am not really up to building things anymore. I suffer from spinal issues. Hopefully the hot dry Texas air should help. I would have bought something like a 7.62 rifle, a M1A with a 16" barrel but I can't take the recoil. So the AR is the way to go, in fact I think I like the .300 better for home defense or CQB work. My experience with the AR is in the Army and the M16A1. I remember the steel targets not going down in basic at FT. Knox armor school. So I'm not a big fan of the 5.56mm round. Although the improvements have helped a lot. And for home defense you can bet whoever tries dies, it doesn't stop with one round.
Good point about having the lower in the shop. Same for guitars, as a professional you need a lot of them and they are always requiring repair and adjustment. So I know I will have to learn the basics of keeping my guns clean and in top operating condition. You convinced me to build about 10 of them. That is what I really want to do...ha ha ha ha ha ha. I can feel it and I'm like NOOOOOOO, but I will probably get the bug. Especially if prices on everything go down. I want at least 2, the 5.56 and a .300. I really like the 6.8mm but I am waiting for a dedicated rifle like the SIX8 before I get into that caliber, it might also have a little too much kick. I will have to get one of those recoil reducing stocks for the 12 gauge. Either a Knoxx or Mesa Tactical with the Endine buffer. |
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If you build it from scratch, there should be absolutely no play between upper/lower. The only time I've seen a sloppy or even lightly loose fit is in store bought rifles and ones in which a complete upper was purchased independent of the lower. If you get into very fine details while building, use quality parts and hand fit every component, you will end up with a rifle that is as good as it gets. I live in far west Texas, but if you ever head this way I will be glad to loan you the tools and shop space, as well as walk you through your own build. If you need to blind pin, cerakote etc, I have setups for all that as well....By the way, Congrats on the move from NY to Ft Hood, TX. wrong. if the receivers are built to spec, they will have some play. doesnt matter if its company A and company B, stripped or assembled. the receivers were designed to fit loosely for good reasons. tight fitting gun parts cause failure when things start getting dirty - see ak47. tight fitting receivers make it difficult to field strip. some companies have tried to appease the newb crowd by making their receivers tighter than spec, sometimes it reduces play, sometimes it makes the receiver so tight it requires filing to get it to fit properly. OP any in spec upper should pop right on to any in spec lower. these dumbass companies that try to make their receivers tighter than spec to reduce play screw things up, you cant have your cake and eat it too. i have two receivers that required filing and/or dremmeling to get them to fit without force. i understand budgets and practicality...but you will want to invest in a lower for each rifle. you say you want it for home defense...but what are you going to do WHEN you go to the range and your rifle/lower breaks, malfunctions, or isnt safe to operate? you cant even assume you will be without the rifle for just 1-2 weeks waiting for parts...if you've been eyeballing retailers lately you know parts have been scarce since december. not sure about builders, i assemble my own. you can mail the parts to adco, rainier, etc if you dont mind that route. if you are decent with your hands you can use the money you would spend at a gunsmith to invest in the tools to assemble them yourself. its not very difficult, you can check out the stickies in the build it yourself section to get an idea what's involved. the plus side is WHEN something on your rifle breaks, you will have the tools to fix it yourself, even if you dont have plants to build more than 1-2 rifles/uppers. .....not when I build them. A liitle OCD combined with years of experience in custom building goes a long way 
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If you build it from scratch, there should be absolutely no play between upper/lower. The only time I've seen a sloppy or even lightly loose fit is in store bought rifles and ones in which a complete upper was purchased independent of the lower. If you get into very fine details while building, use quality parts and hand fit every component, you will end up with a rifle that is as good as it gets. I live in far west Texas, but if you ever head this way I will be glad to loan you the tools and shop space, as well as walk you through your own build. If you need to blind pin, cerakote etc, I have setups for all that as well....By the way, Congrats on the move from NY to Ft Hood, TX. wrong. if the receivers are built to spec, they will have some play. doesnt matter if its company A and company B, stripped or assembled. the receivers were designed to fit loosely for good reasons. tight fitting gun parts cause failure when things start getting dirty - see ak47. tight fitting receivers make it difficult to field strip. some companies have tried to appease the newb crowd by making their receivers tighter than spec, sometimes it reduces play, sometimes it makes the receiver so tight it requires filing to get it to fit properly. OP any in spec upper should pop right on to any in spec lower. these dumbass companies that try to make their receivers tighter than spec to reduce play screw things up, you cant have your cake and eat it too. i have two receivers that required filing and/or dremmeling to get them to fit without force. i understand budgets and practicality...but you will want to invest in a lower for each rifle. you say you want it for home defense...but what are you going to do WHEN you go to the range and your rifle/lower breaks, malfunctions, or isnt safe to operate? you cant even assume you will be without the rifle for just 1-2 weeks waiting for parts...if you've been eyeballing retailers lately you know parts have been scarce since december. not sure about builders, i assemble my own. you can mail the parts to adco, rainier, etc if you dont mind that route. if you are decent with your hands you can use the money you would spend at a gunsmith to invest in the tools to assemble them yourself. its not very difficult, you can check out the stickies in the build it yourself section to get an idea what's involved. the plus side is WHEN something on your rifle breaks, you will have the tools to fix it yourself, even if you dont have plants to build more than 1-2 rifles/uppers. .....not when I build them. A liitle OCD combined with years of experience in custom building goes a long way What do you do to eliminate the play between the two? |
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If you build it from scratch, there should be absolutely no play between upper/lower. The only time I've seen a sloppy or even lightly loose fit is in store bought rifles and ones in which a complete upper was purchased independent of the lower. If you get into very fine details while building, use quality parts and hand fit every component, you will end up with a rifle that is as good as it gets. I live in far west Texas, but if you ever head this way I will be glad to loan you the tools and shop space, as well as walk you through your own build. If you need to blind pin, cerakote etc, I have setups for all that as well....By the way, Congrats on the move from NY to Ft Hood, TX. wrong. if the receivers are built to spec, they will have some play. doesnt matter if its company A and company B, stripped or assembled. the receivers were designed to fit loosely for good reasons. tight fitting gun parts cause failure when things start getting dirty - see ak47. tight fitting receivers make it difficult to field strip. some companies have tried to appease the newb crowd by making their receivers tighter than spec, sometimes it reduces play, sometimes it makes the receiver so tight it requires filing to get it to fit properly. OP any in spec upper should pop right on to any in spec lower. these dumbass companies that try to make their receivers tighter than spec to reduce play screw things up, you cant have your cake and eat it too. i have two receivers that required filing and/or dremmeling to get them to fit without force. i understand budgets and practicality...but you will want to invest in a lower for each rifle. you say you want it for home defense...but what are you going to do WHEN you go to the range and your rifle/lower breaks, malfunctions, or isnt safe to operate? you cant even assume you will be without the rifle for just 1-2 weeks waiting for parts...if you've been eyeballing retailers lately you know parts have been scarce since december. not sure about builders, i assemble my own. you can mail the parts to adco, rainier, etc if you dont mind that route. if you are decent with your hands you can use the money you would spend at a gunsmith to invest in the tools to assemble them yourself. its not very difficult, you can check out the stickies in the build it yourself section to get an idea what's involved. the plus side is WHEN something on your rifle breaks, you will have the tools to fix it yourself, even if you dont have plants to build more than 1-2 rifles/uppers. .....not when I build them. A liitle OCD combined with years of experience in custom building goes a long way What do you do to eliminate the play between the two? Honestly, there are certain manufacturers whose uppers/lowers are machined perfectly, such as Aero Precision, CMMG and others. Then there are some that are machined with the pivot lug recess a bit on the wide side, such as Seekins lowers, or uppers with lugs on the narrow side, such as with BCM... After years of building, you know exactly which manufacturers' combinations are consistent matches and will have zero slop, with perfect pivot and takedown pin alignment as well. The same applies to LPKs, buffer tubes etc. If all other components are uniquely hand fit, machining is correct on all parts after inspection and careful attention was paid to fine details during the assembly process, you will end up with a rifle that is as smooth as glass. A rifle like this will show almost no wear in the upper even after a couple thousand rounds, with the exception of the phosphate finish on the BCG rails. Also, there will be very little carbon residue inside the upper after a long shooting session. There are many, many more factors to consider when building an upper, too many to list. Unfortunately, many people build an upper by simply adding the port door assembly, FA assembly, barrel, torque the nut to correct 'specs' and alignment, add the gas tube, drop in a BCG and test for good key/tube engagement and then call it a day. Afterwards, they end up with only a gun store grade rifle. |
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If you build it from scratch, there should be absolutely no play between upper/lower. The only time I've seen a sloppy or even lightly loose fit is in store bought rifles and ones in which a complete upper was purchased independent of the lower. If you get into very fine details while building, use quality parts and hand fit every component, you will end up with a rifle that is as good as it gets. I live in far west Texas, but if you ever head this way I will be glad to loan you the tools and shop space, as well as walk you through your own build. If you need to blind pin, cerakote etc, I have setups for all that as well....By the way, Congrats on the move from NY to Ft Hood, TX. wrong. if the receivers are built to spec, they will have some play. doesnt matter if its company A and company B, stripped or assembled. the receivers were designed to fit loosely for good reasons. tight fitting gun parts cause failure when things start getting dirty - see ak47. tight fitting receivers make it difficult to field strip. some companies have tried to appease the newb crowd by making their receivers tighter than spec, sometimes it reduces play, sometimes it makes the receiver so tight it requires filing to get it to fit properly. OP any in spec upper should pop right on to any in spec lower. these dumbass companies that try to make their receivers tighter than spec to reduce play screw things up, you cant have your cake and eat it too. i have two receivers that required filing and/or dremmeling to get them to fit without force. i understand budgets and practicality...but you will want to invest in a lower for each rifle. you say you want it for home defense...but what are you going to do WHEN you go to the range and your rifle/lower breaks, malfunctions, or isnt safe to operate? you cant even assume you will be without the rifle for just 1-2 weeks waiting for parts...if you've been eyeballing retailers lately you know parts have been scarce since december. not sure about builders, i assemble my own. you can mail the parts to adco, rainier, etc if you dont mind that route. if you are decent with your hands you can use the money you would spend at a gunsmith to invest in the tools to assemble them yourself. its not very difficult, you can check out the stickies in the build it yourself section to get an idea what's involved. the plus side is WHEN something on your rifle breaks, you will have the tools to fix it yourself, even if you dont have plants to build more than 1-2 rifles/uppers. .....not when I build them. A liitle OCD combined with years of experience in custom building goes a long way What do you do to eliminate the play between the two? Honestly, there are certain manufacturers whose uppers/lowers are machined perfectly, such as Aero Precision, CMMG and others. Then there are some that are machined with the pivot lug recess a bit on the wide side, such as Seekins lowers, or uppers with lugs on the narrow side, such as with BCM... After years of building, you know exactly which manufacturers' combinations are consistent matches and will have zero slop, with perfect pivot and takedown pin alignment as well. The same applies to LPKs, buffer tubes etc. If all other components are uniquely hand fit, machining is correct on all parts after inspection and careful attention was paid to fine details during the assembly process, you will end up with a rifle that is as smooth as glass. A rifle like this will show almost no wear in the upper even after a couple thousand rounds, with the exception of the phosphate finish on the BCG rails. Also, there will be very little carbon residue inside the upper after a long shooting session. There are many, many more factors to consider when building an upper, too many to list. Unfortunately, many people build an upper by simply adding the port door assembly, FA assembly, barrel, torque the nut to correct 'specs' and alignment, add the gas tube, drop in a BCG and test for good key/tube engagement and then call it a day. Afterwards, they end up with only a gun store grade rifle. thanks for the info, i never buy the sloppy fit is somehow by design 
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If you build it from scratch, there should be absolutely no play between upper/lower. The only time I've seen a sloppy or even lightly loose fit is in store bought rifles and ones in which a complete upper was purchased independent of the lower. If you get into very fine details while building, use quality parts and hand fit every component, you will end up with a rifle that is as good as it gets. I live in far west Texas, but if you ever head this way I will be glad to loan you the tools and shop space, as well as walk you through your own build. If you need to blind pin, cerakote etc, I have setups for all that as well....By the way, Congrats on the move from NY to Ft Hood, TX. wrong. if the receivers are built to spec, they will have some play. doesnt matter if its company A and company B, stripped or assembled. the receivers were designed to fit loosely for good reasons. tight fitting gun parts cause failure when things start getting dirty - see ak47. tight fitting receivers make it difficult to field strip. some companies have tried to appease the newb crowd by making their receivers tighter than spec, sometimes it reduces play, sometimes it makes the receiver so tight it requires filing to get it to fit properly. OP any in spec upper should pop right on to any in spec lower. these dumbass companies that try to make their receivers tighter than spec to reduce play screw things up, you cant have your cake and eat it too. i have two receivers that required filing and/or dremmeling to get them to fit without force. i understand budgets and practicality...but you will want to invest in a lower for each rifle. you say you want it for home defense...but what are you going to do WHEN you go to the range and your rifle/lower breaks, malfunctions, or isnt safe to operate? you cant even assume you will be without the rifle for just 1-2 weeks waiting for parts...if you've been eyeballing retailers lately you know parts have been scarce since december. not sure about builders, i assemble my own. you can mail the parts to adco, rainier, etc if you dont mind that route. if you are decent with your hands you can use the money you would spend at a gunsmith to invest in the tools to assemble them yourself. its not very difficult, you can check out the stickies in the build it yourself section to get an idea what's involved. the plus side is WHEN something on your rifle breaks, you will have the tools to fix it yourself, even if you dont have plants to build more than 1-2 rifles/uppers. .....not when I build them. A liitle OCD combined with years of experience in custom building goes a long way What do you do to eliminate the play between the two? He probably carefully hand carves the uppers. Also Unicorn horn can be used to add metal back after a part has been machined. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If you build it from scratch, there should be absolutely no play between upper/lower. The only time I've seen a sloppy or even lightly loose fit is in store bought rifles and ones in which a complete upper was purchased independent of the lower. If you get into very fine details while building, use quality parts and hand fit every component, you will end up with a rifle that is as good as it gets. I live in far west Texas, but if you ever head this way I will be glad to loan you the tools and shop space, as well as walk you through your own build. If you need to blind pin, cerakote etc, I have setups for all that as well....By the way, Congrats on the move from NY to Ft Hood, TX. wrong. if the receivers are built to spec, they will have some play. doesnt matter if its company A and company B, stripped or assembled. the receivers were designed to fit loosely for good reasons. tight fitting gun parts cause failure when things start getting dirty - see ak47. tight fitting receivers make it difficult to field strip. some companies have tried to appease the newb crowd by making their receivers tighter than spec, sometimes it reduces play, sometimes it makes the receiver so tight it requires filing to get it to fit properly. OP any in spec upper should pop right on to any in spec lower. these dumbass companies that try to make their receivers tighter than spec to reduce play screw things up, you cant have your cake and eat it too. i have two receivers that required filing and/or dremmeling to get them to fit without force. i understand budgets and practicality...but you will want to invest in a lower for each rifle. you say you want it for home defense...but what are you going to do WHEN you go to the range and your rifle/lower breaks, malfunctions, or isnt safe to operate? you cant even assume you will be without the rifle for just 1-2 weeks waiting for parts...if you've been eyeballing retailers lately you know parts have been scarce since december. not sure about builders, i assemble my own. you can mail the parts to adco, rainier, etc if you dont mind that route. if you are decent with your hands you can use the money you would spend at a gunsmith to invest in the tools to assemble them yourself. its not very difficult, you can check out the stickies in the build it yourself section to get an idea what's involved. the plus side is WHEN something on your rifle breaks, you will have the tools to fix it yourself, even if you dont have plants to build more than 1-2 rifles/uppers. .....not when I build them. A liitle OCD combined with years of experience in custom building goes a long way What do you do to eliminate the play between the two? Honestly, there are certain manufacturers whose uppers/lowers are machined perfectly, such as Aero Precision, CMMG and others. Then there are some that are machined with the pivot lug recess a bit on the wide side, such as Seekins lowers, or uppers with lugs on the narrow side, such as with BCM... After years of building, you know exactly which manufacturers' combinations are consistent matches and will have zero slop, with perfect pivot and takedown pin alignment as well. The same applies to LPKs, buffer tubes etc. If all other components are uniquely hand fit, machining is correct on all parts after inspection and careful attention was paid to fine details during the assembly process, you will end up with a rifle that is as smooth as glass. A rifle like this will show almost no wear in the upper even after a couple thousand rounds, with the exception of the phosphate finish on the BCG rails. Also, there will be very little carbon residue inside the upper after a long shooting session. There are many, many more factors to consider when building an upper, too many to list. Unfortunately, many people build an upper by simply adding the port door assembly, FA assembly, barrel, torque the nut to correct 'specs' and alignment, add the gas tube, drop in a BCG and test for good key/tube engagement and then call it a day. Afterwards, they end up with only a gun store grade rifle. This is total bullshit. Different parts from the same manufacturers or vendors vary from part to part. I know this from first hand experience in the AR15 manufacturing industry. There is no way to determine which parts will fit together unless they are already in hand. Additionally, tight fitting receivers will loosen in time after firing rounds through them, and repeated takedowns. Taking the time to "uniquely hand fit" each part would take tens of hours, maybe more. This would add hundreds, maybe thousands to the cost a rifle, and this would be totally cost prohibitive in a competitive market. You'd better start laying down some serious verifiable credentials to back up what you are saying, or I am calling BULLSHIT bigtime. I'll apologize if you have the credentials, but I doubt anyone who knows a thing about manufacturing, machining, or the AR15 industry would make the claims you do. And I do mean verifiable, not just anecdotal claims. |
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If you build it from scratch, there should be absolutely no play between upper/lower. The only time I've seen a sloppy or even lightly loose fit is in store bought rifles and ones in which a complete upper was purchased independent of the lower. If you get into very fine details while building, use quality parts and hand fit every component, you will end up with a rifle that is as good as it gets. I live in far west Texas, but if you ever head this way I will be glad to loan you the tools and shop space, as well as walk you through your own build. If you need to blind pin, cerakote etc, I have setups for all that as well....By the way, Congrats on the move from NY to Ft Hood, TX. wrong. if the receivers are built to spec, they will have some play. doesnt matter if its company A and company B, stripped or assembled. the receivers were designed to fit loosely for good reasons. tight fitting gun parts cause failure when things start getting dirty - see ak47. tight fitting receivers make it difficult to field strip. some companies have tried to appease the newb crowd by making their receivers tighter than spec, sometimes it reduces play, sometimes it makes the receiver so tight it requires filing to get it to fit properly. OP any in spec upper should pop right on to any in spec lower. these dumbass companies that try to make their receivers tighter than spec to reduce play screw things up, you cant have your cake and eat it too. i have two receivers that required filing and/or dremmeling to get them to fit without force. i understand budgets and practicality...but you will want to invest in a lower for each rifle. you say you want it for home defense...but what are you going to do WHEN you go to the range and your rifle/lower breaks, malfunctions, or isnt safe to operate? you cant even assume you will be without the rifle for just 1-2 weeks waiting for parts...if you've been eyeballing retailers lately you know parts have been scarce since december. not sure about builders, i assemble my own. you can mail the parts to adco, rainier, etc if you dont mind that route. if you are decent with your hands you can use the money you would spend at a gunsmith to invest in the tools to assemble them yourself. its not very difficult, you can check out the stickies in the build it yourself section to get an idea what's involved. the plus side is WHEN something on your rifle breaks, you will have the tools to fix it yourself, even if you dont have plants to build more than 1-2 rifles/uppers. .....not when I build them. A liitle OCD combined with years of experience in custom building goes a long way What do you do to eliminate the play between the two? Honestly, there are certain manufacturers whose uppers/lowers are machined perfectly, such as Aero Precision, CMMG and others. Then there are some that are machined with the pivot lug recess a bit on the wide side, such as Seekins lowers, or uppers with lugs on the narrow side, such as with BCM... After years of building, you know exactly which manufacturers' combinations are consistent matches and will have zero slop, with perfect pivot and takedown pin alignment as well. The same applies to LPKs, buffer tubes etc. If all other components are uniquely hand fit, machining is correct on all parts after inspection and careful attention was paid to fine details during the assembly process, you will end up with a rifle that is as smooth as glass. A rifle like this will show almost no wear in the upper even after a couple thousand rounds, with the exception of the phosphate finish on the BCG rails. Also, there will be very little carbon residue inside the upper after a long shooting session. There are many, many more factors to consider when building an upper, too many to list. Unfortunately, many people build an upper by simply adding the port door assembly, FA assembly, barrel, torque the nut to correct 'specs' and alignment, add the gas tube, drop in a BCG and test for good key/tube engagement and then call it a day. Afterwards, they end up with only a gun store grade rifle. 
Congratulations.... You earned it... The area highlighted in red... Please do tell how you dreamed that one up. Remember we are talking about a rifle that shit's where it eats.
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Well, this just got interesting. No, it really didn't get interesting. It's normal. They are correct in that you do need to have lots of parts to test fit. Just to let you know, I do not charge when I make custom uppers for the locals here. I only charge for parts, and often I will not charge for small parts that I already have readily available. I especially like to help out folks who can't afford a smith. Since I do this for the love of the hobby, I am not under time constraints, so I don't have to try to push half-ass work through to maximize profits. I do take my time, but not thousands of years as one poster put it. It usually takes me two hours, a little more if I am pinning muzzle devices (I do, however, charge local gunsmiths when they request this service). Here are a few pics of an upper I built a few years ago. I am only posting pics of it because I just came back from shooting it with a colleague of mine a couple of hours ago, so I can demonstrate the importance of properly assembly and fit, as well as how it pertains to fouling. I ran exactly 450 rounds through it this evening. It has not been cleaned yet, but you can see the difference in wear and carbon residue as opposed to a sloppy build. Sorry for the bad pic quality, I just took these with my cell as soon as I walked in and saw posts from a couple of skeptics. This is actually just a simple plinking upper I built that has over 4500 rounds through it: ETA: the carrier does get some fouling inside, but the receiver gets very, very little. Also, I only use a little CLP for lube, never running my BCGs "dripping wet"...much of the lube works it's way out between the rear portion of the upper and lower after extended firing, but the bolt itself remains lubed and it continues to run smoothly. As with all my builds, this rifle still has zero play and perfect fit, despite having a moderate round count. As a precaution, I'll most likely change out the Bolt and barrel once it hits the 12K to 15K mark though. This is the inside of the receiver. No charging handle wear as seen in some rack rifles. 
BCG is definitely showing wear, however. And there are grains of sand stuck in the CLP since we were night shooting out in the desert, with a high amount of wind. 
A little closer. More grains of and a few brass shavings on the bolt face, but there is very little carbon residue and no "scorched" or filthy gas tube like you see in many run of the mill rifles. A tight, flush, fit between key and tube, as well as timing the barrel nut perfectly so that the gas tube 'floats' between the teeth is key to achieving this. 
If you notice the pivot pin lug, it shows a decent amount of wear due to the upper being removed for cleaning many times in the past, yet there is absolutely no wear near the cam pin recess or channel, nor from the bearing surfaces of the BCG, the anodizing is in excellent condition inside, despite having thousands of rounds run through this upper. Again, proper fit of components such as cam pin, gas tube, checking all tolerances in moving parts etc...eliminates premature wear. 
In the near future, I'll get around to posting pics of the inside of some uppers I built with over 10K rounds through them that show even less wear. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Well, this just got interesting. No, it really didn't get interesting. It's normal. They are correct in that you do need to have lots of parts to test fit. Just to let you know, I do not charge when I make custom uppers for the locals here. I only charge for parts, and often I will not charge for small parts that I already have readily available. I especially like to help out folks who can't afford a smith. Since I do this for the love of the hobby, I am not under time constraints, so I don't have to try to push half-ass work through to maximize profits. I do take my time, but not thousands of years as one poster put it. It usually takes me two hours, a little more if I am pinning muzzle devices (I do, however, charge local gunsmiths when they request this service). Here are a few pics of an upper I built a few years ago. I am only posting pics of it because I just came back from shooting it with a colleague of mine a couple of hours ago, so I can demonstrate the importance of properly assembly and fit, as well as how it pertains to fouling. I ran exactly 450 rounds through it this evening. It has not been cleaned yet, but you can see the difference in wear and carbon residue as opposed to a sloppy build. Sorry for the bad pic quality, I just took these with my cell as soon as I walked in and saw posts from a couple of skeptics. This is actually just a simple plinking upper I built that has over 4500 rounds through it: ETA: the carrier does get some fouling inside, but the receiver gets very, very little. Also, I only use a little CLP for lube, never running my BCGs "dripping wet"...much of the lube works it's way out between the rear portion of the upper and lower after extended firing, but the bolt itself remains lubed and it continues to run smoothly. As with all my builds, this rifle still has zero play and perfect fit, despite having a moderate round count. As a precaution, I'll most likely change out the Bolt and barrel once it hits the 12K to 15K mark though. This is the inside of the receiver. No charging handle wear as seen in some rack rifles. http://i42.tinypic.com/nqtr1l.jpg BCG is definitely showing wear, however. And there are grains of sand stuck in the CLP since we were night shooting out in the desert, with a high amount of wind. http://i44.tinypic.com/242zaqc.jpg A little closer. More grains of and a few brass shavings on the bolt face, but there is very little carbon residue and no "scorched" or filthy gas tube like you see in many run of the mill rifles. A tight, flush, fit between key and tube, as well as timing the barrel nut perfectly so that the gas tube 'floats' between the teeth is key to achieving this. http://i43.tinypic.com/2z66om9.jpg If you notice the pivot pin lug, it shows a decent amount of wear due to the upper being removed for cleaning many times in the past, yet there is absolutely no wear near the cam pin recess or channel, nor from the bearing surfaces of the BCG, the anodizing is in excellent condition inside, despite having thousands of rounds run through this upper. Again, proper fit of components such as cam pin, gas tube, checking all tolerances in moving parts etc...eliminates premature wear. http://i42.tinypic.com/2rncu36.jpg In the near future, I'll get around to posting pics of the inside of some uppers I built with over 10K rounds through them that show even less wear. Do you fit the cam pin so that it doesn't contact the recess at all? |
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Quoted:
Well, this just got interesting. No, it really didn't get interesting. It's normal. They are correct in that you do need to have lots of parts to test fit. Just to let you know, I do not charge when I make custom uppers for the locals here. I only charge for parts, and often I will not charge for small parts that I already have readily available. I especially like to help out folks who can't afford a smith. Since I do this for the love of the hobby, I am not under time constraints, so I don't have to try to push half-ass work through to maximize profits. I do take my time, but not thousands of years as one poster put it. It usually takes me two hours, a little more if I am pinning muzzle devices (I do, however, charge local gunsmiths when they request this service). Here are a few pics of an upper I built a few years ago. I am only posting pics of it because I just came back from shooting it with a colleague of mine a couple of hours ago, so I can demonstrate the importance of properly assembly and fit, as well as how it pertains to fouling. I ran exactly 450 rounds through it this evening. It has not been cleaned yet, but you can see the difference in wear and carbon residue as opposed to a sloppy build. Sorry for the bad pic quality, I just took these with my cell as soon as I walked in and saw posts from a couple of skeptics. This is actually just a simple plinking upper I built that has over 4500 rounds through it: ETA: the carrier does get some fouling inside, but the receiver gets very, very little. Also, I only use a little CLP for lube, never running my BCGs "dripping wet"...much of the lube works it's way out between the rear portion of the upper and lower after extended firing, but the bolt itself remains lubed and it continues to run smoothly. As with all my builds, this rifle still has zero play and perfect fit, despite having a moderate round count. As a precaution, I'll most likely change out the Bolt and barrel once it hits the 12K to 15K mark though. This is the inside of the receiver. No charging handle wear as seen in some rack rifles. http://i42.tinypic.com/nqtr1l.jpg BCG is definitely showing wear, however. And there are grains of sand stuck in the CLP since we were night shooting out in the desert, with a high amount of wind. http://i44.tinypic.com/242zaqc.jpg A little closer. More grains of and a few brass shavings on the bolt face, but there is very little carbon residue and no "scorched" or filthy gas tube like you see in many run of the mill rifles. A tight, flush, fit between key and tube, as well as timing the barrel nut perfectly so that the gas tube 'floats' between the teeth is key to achieving this. http://i43.tinypic.com/2z66om9.jpg If you notice the pivot pin lug, it shows a decent amount of wear due to the upper being removed for cleaning many times in the past, yet there is absolutely no wear near the cam pin recess or channel, nor from the bearing surfaces of the BCG, the anodizing is in excellent condition inside, despite having thousands of rounds run through this upper. Again, proper fit of components such as cam pin, gas tube, checking all tolerances in moving parts etc...eliminates premature wear. http://i42.tinypic.com/2rncu36.jpg In the near future, I'll get around to posting pics of the inside of some uppers I built with over 10K rounds through them that show even less wear. Do you fit the cam pin so that it doesn't contact the recess at all? That is correct. I also ensure that the cam pin fits 100% flush the entire length of the channel so that it doesn't cant to the left when pressure is applied due to resistance of the bolt when stripping rounds from the magazine. This is also dependent on the tolerances of the carrier itself. If the carrier fit is also perfect, and the cam guide machined correctly, there will be no wear opposite of the recess either from unlocking. There is still much more to fitting upper components, I'm just covering some of them. Maybe one day I'll take the time to write up all the little things that can be overlooked when building. |
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Honestly, there are certain manufacturers whose uppers/lowers are machined perfectly, such as Aero Precision, CMMG and others. Then there are some that are machined with the pivot lug recess a bit on the wide side, such as Seekins lowers, or uppers with lugs on the narrow side, such as with BCM... After years of building, you know exactly which manufacturers' combinations are consistent matches and will have zero slop, with perfect pivot and takedown pin alignment as well. The same applies to LPKs, buffer tubes etc. If all other components are uniquely hand fit, machining is correct on all parts after inspection and careful attention was paid to fine details during the assembly process, you will end up with a rifle that is as smooth as glass. A rifle like this will show almost no wear in the upper even after a couple thousand rounds, with the exception of the phosphate finish on the BCG rails. Also, there will be very little carbon residue inside the upper after a long shooting session. There are many, many more factors to consider when building an upper, too many to list. Unfortunately, many people build an upper by simply adding the port door assembly, FA assembly, barrel, torque the nut to correct 'specs' and alignment, add the gas tube, drop in a BCG and test for good key/tube engagement and then call it a day. Afterwards, they end up with only a gun store grade rifle. 1. Those companies making tight receivers are not making mil spec dimension receivers and are not guaranteed to fit other receivers on the market without fitment. This is not a good thing as NOTHING is functionally wrong with mil spec. All this does is create headaches for end users that can no longer snap 2 receivers from different companies together 2. No carbon? Since when does the received fitment have anything to do with how much dwell time and gas pressure enters the upper receiver due to direct impingement? 3. Unfortunately? "Gun store grade"? Last time I checked the best rifles in the industry meet your definition of "gun store grade". That includes rifles supplied to the armed forces. 4. I stopped reading anything you wrote after "hobby". You aren't a certified colt armorer? You aren't a licensed gunsmith? And you want people on this forum to believe the industy professionals have been doing it wrong for 50 years because you have a hobby? Am I reading that right? |
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wrong. if the receivers are built to spec, they will have some play. doesnt matter if its company A and company B, stripped or assembled. the receivers were designed to fit loosely for good reasons. tight fitting gun parts cause failure when things start getting dirty - see ak47. tight fitting receivers make it difficult to field strip. some companies have tried to appease the newb crowd by making their receivers tighter than spec, sometimes it reduces play, sometimes it makes the receiver so tight it requires filing to get it to fit properly. Yeah, I understand why John Browning designed a loose fit at the slide of a 1911 to reduce the likelyhood of a malfunction due to field conditions. But someone explain to me how a snug AR-15 upper and lower reduces reliability in the field. And let's never mind about difficulty in takedown, I'm not talking that tight. |
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Honestly, there are certain manufacturers whose uppers/lowers are machined perfectly, such as Aero Precision, CMMG and others. Then there are some that are machined with the pivot lug recess a bit on the wide side, such as Seekins lowers, or uppers with lugs on the narrow side, such as with BCM... After years of building, you know exactly which manufacturers' combinations are consistent matches and will have zero slop, with perfect pivot and takedown pin alignment as well. The same applies to LPKs, buffer tubes etc. If all other components are uniquely hand fit, machining is correct on all parts after inspection and careful attention was paid to fine details during the assembly process, you will end up with a rifle that is as smooth as glass. A rifle like this will show almost no wear in the upper even after a couple thousand rounds, with the exception of the phosphate finish on the BCG rails. Also, there will be very little carbon residue inside the upper after a long shooting session. There are many, many more factors to consider when building an upper, too many to list. Unfortunately, many people build an upper by simply adding the port door assembly, FA assembly, barrel, torque the nut to correct 'specs' and alignment, add the gas tube, drop in a BCG and test for good key/tube engagement and then call it a day. Afterwards, they end up with only a gun store grade rifle. 1. Those companies making tight receivers are not making mil spec dimension receivers and are not guaranteed to fit other receivers on the market without fitment. This is not a good thing as NOTHING is functionally wrong with mil spec. All this does is create headaches for end users that can no longer snap 2 receivers from different companies together 2. No carbon? Since when does the received fitment have anything to do with how much dwell time and gas pressure enters the upper receiver due to direct impingement? 3. Unfortunately? "Gun store grade"? Last time I checked the best rifles in the industry meet your definition of "gun store grade". That includes rifles supplied to the armed forces. 4. I stopped reading anything you wrote after "hobby". You aren't a certified colt armorer? You aren't a licensed gunsmith? And you want people on this forum to believe the industy professionals have been doing it wrong for 50 years because you have a hobby? Am I reading that right? 1. The receivers are not tight at all, they are in spec. Very easy to disassemble, pins slide out like butter.....zero play or slop. 2. That's right, almost no carbon in the upper. I never said it had anything to do with receiver fit. Go back and re read my post. And yes, it has much to do with timing....I time everything perfectly.. 3. Yup, there is a HUGE difference in quality between my builds and your average Colt, Bushmaster etc... 4. Actually, I am not a certified gunsmith, but I don't need to be. I have more hours of experience doing this and have handled/repaired more firearms in a week than you will probably ever own in your lifetime. This is not what I do for a living though, I own a machine shop. As for armorers, they know a lot less than you think about the AR platform. A lot of local ones here call me for help in troubleshooting issues for them, and several local gunsmiths also routinely call me for help. And yes, this is a hobby for me. I don't make a penny from helping out firearm owners here in my community. Keep in mind, "industry professionals" are concerned with turning out rifles that function, and to turn them out as quickly as possible. This is how they make a living. They are not seeking perfection in an industrial setting. If they were as perfect as you claim, then they'd never have to do warranty work. You feel me on that? Instead of posting insults, maybe you should take a step back and try to absorb some knowledge about this topic. |
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Quoted: Going by the UTG parts I would agree. 1. The receivers are not tight at all, they are in spec. Very easy to disassemble, pins slide out like butter.....zero play or slop. 2. That's right, almost no carbon in the upper. I never said it had anything to do with receiver fit. Go back and re read my post. And yes, it has much to do with timing....I time everything perfectly.. 3. Yup, there is a HUGE difference in quality between my builds and your average Colt, Bushmaster etc... 4. Actually, I am not a certified gunsmith, but I don't need to be. I have more hours of experience doing this and have handled/repaired more firearms in a week than you will probably ever own in your lifetime. This is not what I do for a living though, I own a machine shop. As for armorers, they know a lot less than you think about the AR platform. A lot of local ones here call me for help in troubleshooting issues for them, and several local gunsmiths also routinely call me for help. And yes, this is a hobby for me. I don't make a penny from helping out firearm owners here in my community. Keep in mind, "industry professionals" are concerned with turning out rifles that function, and to turn them out as quickly as possible. This is how they make a living. They are not seeking perfection in an industrial setting. If they were as perfect as you claim, then they'd never have to do warranty work. You feel me on that? Instead of posting insults, maybe you should take a step back and try to absorb some knowledge about this topic.  |
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Well, this just got interesting. No, it really didn't get interesting. It's normal. They are correct in that you do need to have lots of parts to test fit. Just to let you know, I do not charge when I make custom uppers for the locals here. I only charge for parts, and often I will not charge for small parts that I already have readily available. I especially like to help out folks who can't afford a smith. Since I do this for the love of the hobby, I am not under time constraints, so I don't have to try to push half-ass work through to maximize profits. I do take my time, but not thousands of years as one poster put it. It usually takes me two hours, a little more if I am pinning muzzle devices (I do, however, charge local gunsmiths when they request this service). Here are a few pics of an upper I built a few years ago. I am only posting pics of it because I just came back from shooting it with a colleague of mine a couple of hours ago, so I can demonstrate the importance of properly assembly and fit, as well as how it pertains to fouling. I ran exactly 450 rounds through it this evening. It has not been cleaned yet, but you can see the difference in wear and carbon residue as opposed to a sloppy build. Sorry for the bad pic quality, I just took these with my cell as soon as I walked in and saw posts from a couple of skeptics. This is actually just a simple plinking upper I built that has over 4500 rounds through it: ETA: the carrier does get some fouling inside, but the receiver gets very, very little. Also, I only use a little CLP for lube, never running my BCGs "dripping wet"...much of the lube works it's way out between the rear portion of the upper and lower after extended firing, but the bolt itself remains lubed and it continues to run smoothly. As with all my builds, this rifle still has zero play and perfect fit, despite having a moderate round count. As a precaution, I'll most likely change out the Bolt and barrel once it hits the 12K to 15K mark though. This is the inside of the receiver. No charging handle wear as seen in some rack rifles. http://i42.tinypic.com/nqtr1l.jpg BCG is definitely showing wear, however. And there are grains of sand stuck in the CLP since we were night shooting out in the desert, with a high amount of wind. http://i44.tinypic.com/242zaqc.jpg A little closer. More grains of and a few brass shavings on the bolt face, but there is very little carbon residue and no "scorched" or filthy gas tube like you see in many run of the mill rifles. A tight, flush, fit between key and tube, as well as timing the barrel nut perfectly so that the gas tube 'floats' between the teeth is key to achieving this. http://i43.tinypic.com/2z66om9.jpg If you notice the pivot pin lug, it shows a decent amount of wear due to the upper being removed for cleaning many times in the past, yet there is absolutely no wear near the cam pin recess or channel, nor from the bearing surfaces of the BCG, the anodizing is in excellent condition inside, despite having thousands of rounds run through this upper. Again, proper fit of components such as cam pin, gas tube, checking all tolerances in moving parts etc...eliminates premature wear. http://i42.tinypic.com/2rncu36.jpg In the near future, I'll get around to posting pics of the inside of some uppers I built with over 10K rounds through them that show even less wear. You articulated your point well and the photos are compelling, thatk you for taking the time to post them! What I've found through the years is a lack of attention to the small details. While singularly, these small details might have little impact however cumulatively is where they rear their ugly head. Gunsmithing to a certain degree is something that nearly anyone with mechanical aptitude and an understanding in how a firearm works can in fact improve it's performance quite a but. Years ago this is how I began my hobby. I'm self taught and after reading how the professionals glass-bed stocks, pillar bed, re-barrel actions, trued bolt faces by machining and lapping I saw absolutely nothing earth shattering.........and this is how and why many of my bolt guns are as repeatable and accurate as they are. Handloading and tailoring brass, primer, powder, and bullet combinations for a particular rifle is another component in the quest for supreme accuracy. I realize that this is an AR 15 forum but you'd be surprised at how surgical these weapons can be with a plan and a bit of attention to detail.... |
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Well, this just got interesting. No, it really didn't get interesting. It's normal. They are correct in that you do need to have lots of parts to test fit. Just to let you know, I do not charge when I make custom uppers for the locals here. I only charge for parts, and often I will not charge for small parts that I already have readily available. I especially like to help out folks who can't afford a smith. Since I do this for the love of the hobby, I am not under time constraints, so I don't have to try to push half-ass work through to maximize profits. I do take my time, but not thousands of years as one poster put it. It usually takes me two hours, a little more if I am pinning muzzle devices (I do, however, charge local gunsmiths when they request this service). Here are a few pics of an upper I built a few years ago. I am only posting pics of it because I just came back from shooting it with a colleague of mine a couple of hours ago, so I can demonstrate the importance of properly assembly and fit, as well as how it pertains to fouling. I ran exactly 450 rounds through it this evening. It has not been cleaned yet, but you can see the difference in wear and carbon residue as opposed to a sloppy build. Sorry for the bad pic quality, I just took these with my cell as soon as I walked in and saw posts from a couple of skeptics. This is actually just a simple plinking upper I built that has over 4500 rounds through it: ETA: the carrier does get some fouling inside, but the receiver gets very, very little. Also, I only use a little CLP for lube, never running my BCGs "dripping wet"...much of the lube works it's way out between the rear portion of the upper and lower after extended firing, but the bolt itself remains lubed and it continues to run smoothly. As with all my builds, this rifle still has zero play and perfect fit, despite having a moderate round count. As a precaution, I'll most likely change out the Bolt and barrel once it hits the 12K to 15K mark though. This is the inside of the receiver. No charging handle wear as seen in some rack rifles. http://i42.tinypic.com/nqtr1l.jpg BCG is definitely showing wear, however. And there are grains of sand stuck in the CLP since we were night shooting out in the desert, with a high amount of wind. http://i44.tinypic.com/242zaqc.jpg A little closer. More grains of and a few brass shavings on the bolt face, but there is very little carbon residue and no "scorched" or filthy gas tube like you see in many run of the mill rifles. A tight, flush, fit between key and tube, as well as timing the barrel nut perfectly so that the gas tube 'floats' between the teeth is key to achieving this. http://i43.tinypic.com/2z66om9.jpg If you notice the pivot pin lug, it shows a decent amount of wear due to the upper being removed for cleaning many times in the past, yet there is absolutely no wear near the cam pin recess or channel, nor from the bearing surfaces of the BCG, the anodizing is in excellent condition inside, despite having thousands of rounds run through this upper. Again, proper fit of components such as cam pin, gas tube, checking all tolerances in moving parts etc...eliminates premature wear. http://i42.tinypic.com/2rncu36.jpg In the near future, I'll get around to posting pics of the inside of some uppers I built with over 10K rounds through them that show even less wear. Sorry I cant believe anyone with UTG on their rifle. 
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Going by the UTG parts I would agree. 1. The receivers are not tight at all, they are in spec. Very easy to disassemble, pins slide out like butter.....zero play or slop. 2. That's right, almost no carbon in the upper. I never said it had anything to do with receiver fit. Go back and re read my post. And yes, it has much to do with timing....I time everything perfectly.. 3. Yup, there is a HUGE difference in quality between my builds and your average Colt, Bushmaster etc... 4. Actually, I am not a certified gunsmith, but I don't need to be. I have more hours of experience doing this and have handled/repaired more firearms in a week than you will probably ever own in your lifetime. This is not what I do for a living though, I own a machine shop. As for armorers, they know a lot less than you think about the AR platform. A lot of local ones here call me for help in troubleshooting issues for them, and several local gunsmiths also routinely call me for help. And yes, this is a hobby for me. I don't make a penny from helping out firearm owners here in my community. Keep in mind, "industry professionals" are concerned with turning out rifles that function, and to turn them out as quickly as possible. This is how they make a living. They are not seeking perfection in an industrial setting. If they were as perfect as you claim, then they'd never have to do warranty work. You feel me on that? Instead of posting insults, maybe you should take a step back and try to absorb some knowledge about this topic.
I have no problem using UTG rails or, as in the photos, a QD mount for a cheap Sig red dot for plinking on my own rifles. I also use more expensive brands at times. For the actual rifle itself, I only use high-quality components. I've never had a single malfunction to date on anything that I have built, and I don't plan on it happening in the future. When it comes to rifles, it really is what's on the inside that counts 
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Well, this just got interesting. No, it really didn't get interesting. It's normal. They are correct in that you do need to have lots of parts to test fit. Just to let you know, I do not charge when I make custom uppers for the locals here. I only charge for parts, and often I will not charge for small parts that I already have readily available. I especially like to help out folks who can't afford a smith. Since I do this for the love of the hobby, I am not under time constraints, so I don't have to try to push half-ass work through to maximize profits. I do take my time, but not thousands of years as one poster put it. It usually takes me two hours, a little more if I am pinning muzzle devices (I do, however, charge local gunsmiths when they request this service). Here are a few pics of an upper I built a few years ago. I am only posting pics of it because I just came back from shooting it with a colleague of mine a couple of hours ago, so I can demonstrate the importance of properly assembly and fit, as well as how it pertains to fouling. I ran exactly 450 rounds through it this evening. It has not been cleaned yet, but you can see the difference in wear and carbon residue as opposed to a sloppy build. Sorry for the bad pic quality, I just took these with my cell as soon as I walked in and saw posts from a couple of skeptics. This is actually just a simple plinking upper I built that has over 4500 rounds through it: ETA: the carrier does get some fouling inside, but the receiver gets very, very little. Also, I only use a little CLP for lube, never running my BCGs "dripping wet"...much of the lube works it's way out between the rear portion of the upper and lower after extended firing, but the bolt itself remains lubed and it continues to run smoothly. As with all my builds, this rifle still has zero play and perfect fit, despite having a moderate round count. As a precaution, I'll most likely change out the Bolt and barrel once it hits the 12K to 15K mark though. This is the inside of the receiver. No charging handle wear as seen in some rack rifles. http://i42.tinypic.com/nqtr1l.jpg BCG is definitely showing wear, however. And there are grains of sand stuck in the CLP since we were night shooting out in the desert, with a high amount of wind. http://i44.tinypic.com/242zaqc.jpg A little closer. More grains of and a few brass shavings on the bolt face, but there is very little carbon residue and no "scorched" or filthy gas tube like you see in many run of the mill rifles. A tight, flush, fit between key and tube, as well as timing the barrel nut perfectly so that the gas tube 'floats' between the teeth is key to achieving this. http://i43.tinypic.com/2z66om9.jpg If you notice the pivot pin lug, it shows a decent amount of wear due to the upper being removed for cleaning many times in the past, yet there is absolutely no wear near the cam pin recess or channel, nor from the bearing surfaces of the BCG, the anodizing is in excellent condition inside, despite having thousands of rounds run through this upper. Again, proper fit of components such as cam pin, gas tube, checking all tolerances in moving parts etc...eliminates premature wear. http://i42.tinypic.com/2rncu36.jpg In the near future, I'll get around to posting pics of the inside of some uppers I built with over 10K rounds through them that show even less wear. You articulated your point well and the photos are compelling, thatk you for taking the time to post them! What I've found through the years is a lack of attention to the small details. While singularly, these small details might have little impact however cumulatively is where they rear their ugly head. Gunsmithing to a certain degree is something that nearly anyone with mechanical aptitude and an understanding in how a firearm works can in fact improve it's performance quite a but. Years ago this is how I began my hobby. I'm self taught and after reading how the professionals glass-bed stocks, pillar bed, re-barrel actions, trued bolt faces by machining and lapping I saw absolutely nothing earth shattering.........and this is how and why many of my bolt guns are as repeatable and accurate as they are. Handloading and tailoring brass, primer, powder, and bullet combinations for a particular rifle is another component in the quest for supreme accuracy. I realize that this is an AR 15 forum but you'd be surprised at how surgical these weapons can be with a plan and a bit of attention to detail.... I completely agree. I have seen the handywork of a few smiths regarding bolt action rifles. The attention to detail was amazing and, according to the shooters who had the work performed, it did make a huge difference in overall performance. That is what inspired me to take the same approach to the AR platform. |
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Well, this just got interesting. No, it really didn't get interesting. It's normal. They are correct in that you do need to have lots of parts to test fit. Just to let you know, I do not charge when I make custom uppers for the locals here. I only charge for parts, and often I will not charge for small parts that I already have readily available. I especially like to help out folks who can't afford a smith. Since I do this for the love of the hobby, I am not under time constraints, so I don't have to try to push half-ass work through to maximize profits. I do take my time, but not thousands of years as one poster put it. It usually takes me two hours, a little more if I am pinning muzzle devices (I do, however, charge local gunsmiths when they request this service). Here are a few pics of an upper I built a few years ago. I am only posting pics of it because I just came back from shooting it with a colleague of mine a couple of hours ago, so I can demonstrate the importance of properly assembly and fit, as well as how it pertains to fouling. I ran exactly 450 rounds through it this evening. It has not been cleaned yet, but you can see the difference in wear and carbon residue as opposed to a sloppy build. Sorry for the bad pic quality, I just took these with my cell as soon as I walked in and saw posts from a couple of skeptics. This is actually just a simple plinking upper I built that has over 4500 rounds through it: ETA: the carrier does get some fouling inside, but the receiver gets very, very little. Also, I only use a little CLP for lube, never running my BCGs "dripping wet"...much of the lube works it's way out between the rear portion of the upper and lower after extended firing, but the bolt itself remains lubed and it continues to run smoothly. As with all my builds, this rifle still has zero play and perfect fit, despite having a moderate round count. As a precaution, I'll most likely change out the Bolt and barrel once it hits the 12K to 15K mark though. This is the inside of the receiver. No charging handle wear as seen in some rack rifles. http://i42.tinypic.com/nqtr1l.jpg BCG is definitely showing wear, however. And there are grains of sand stuck in the CLP since we were night shooting out in the desert, with a high amount of wind. http://i44.tinypic.com/242zaqc.jpg A little closer. More grains of and a few brass shavings on the bolt face, but there is very little carbon residue and no "scorched" or filthy gas tube like you see in many run of the mill rifles. A tight, flush, fit between key and tube, as well as timing the barrel nut perfectly so that the gas tube 'floats' between the teeth is key to achieving this. http://i43.tinypic.com/2z66om9.jpg If you notice the pivot pin lug, it shows a decent amount of wear due to the upper being removed for cleaning many times in the past, yet there is absolutely no wear near the cam pin recess or channel, nor from the bearing surfaces of the BCG, the anodizing is in excellent condition inside, despite having thousands of rounds run through this upper. Again, proper fit of components such as cam pin, gas tube, checking all tolerances in moving parts etc...eliminates premature wear. http://i42.tinypic.com/2rncu36.jpg In the near future, I'll get around to posting pics of the inside of some uppers I built with over 10K rounds through them that show even less wear. Sorry I cant believe anyone with UTG on their rifle. Believe it or not, even though I have been custom building my own rifles for years, I used to still buy DPMS complete rifles once in a while when they were only $500 just because they were inexpensive to use as truck guns.  When I no longer wanted them, I'd sell them and donate the money to the Wounded Warrior Project. They functioned as intended for a low price.
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Well, this just got interesting. No, it really didn't get interesting. It's normal. They are correct in that you do need to have lots of parts to test fit. Just to let you know, I do not charge when I make custom uppers for the locals here. I only charge for parts, and often I will not charge for small parts that I already have readily available. I especially like to help out folks who can't afford a smith. Since I do this for the love of the hobby, I am not under time constraints, so I don't have to try to push half-ass work through to maximize profits. I do take my time, but not thousands of years as one poster put it. It usually takes me two hours, a little more if I am pinning muzzle devices (I do, however, charge local gunsmiths when they request this service). Here are a few pics of an upper I built a few years ago. I am only posting pics of it because I just came back from shooting it with a colleague of mine a couple of hours ago, so I can demonstrate the importance of properly assembly and fit, as well as how it pertains to fouling. I ran exactly 450 rounds through it this evening. It has not been cleaned yet, but you can see the difference in wear and carbon residue as opposed to a sloppy build. Sorry for the bad pic quality, I just took these with my cell as soon as I walked in and saw posts from a couple of skeptics. This is actually just a simple plinking upper I built that has over 4500 rounds through it: ETA: the carrier does get some fouling inside, but the receiver gets very, very little. Also, I only use a little CLP for lube, never running my BCGs "dripping wet"...much of the lube works it's way out between the rear portion of the upper and lower after extended firing, but the bolt itself remains lubed and it continues to run smoothly. As with all my builds, this rifle still has zero play and perfect fit, despite having a moderate round count. As a precaution, I'll most likely change out the Bolt and barrel once it hits the 12K to 15K mark though. This is the inside of the receiver. No charging handle wear as seen in some rack rifles. http://i42.tinypic.com/nqtr1l.jpg BCG is definitely showing wear, however. And there are grains of sand stuck in the CLP since we were night shooting out in the desert, with a high amount of wind. http://i44.tinypic.com/242zaqc.jpg A little closer. More grains of and a few brass shavings on the bolt face, but there is very little carbon residue and no "scorched" or filthy gas tube like you see in many run of the mill rifles. A tight, flush, fit between key and tube, as well as timing the barrel nut perfectly so that the gas tube 'floats' between the teeth is key to achieving this. http://i43.tinypic.com/2z66om9.jpg If you notice the pivot pin lug, it shows a decent amount of wear due to the upper being removed for cleaning many times in the past, yet there is absolutely no wear near the cam pin recess or channel, nor from the bearing surfaces of the BCG, the anodizing is in excellent condition inside, despite having thousands of rounds run through this upper. Again, proper fit of components such as cam pin, gas tube, checking all tolerances in moving parts etc...eliminates premature wear. http://i42.tinypic.com/2rncu36.jpg In the near future, I'll get around to posting pics of the inside of some uppers I built with over 10K rounds through them that show even less wear. Sorry I cant believe anyone with UTG on their rifle. Believe it or not, even though I have been custom building my own rifles for years, I used to still buy DPMS complete rifles once in a while when they were only $500 just because they were inexpensive to use as truck guns. When I no longer wanted them, I'd sell them and donate the money to the Wounded Warrior Project. They functioned as intended for a low price.and i like UTG gear, they work just fine. these days people pay too much attention to how expensive the gear is, money doesn't buy skill or experience, just like photography, a photographer can take a great picture with $500 camera, and beats the one with $5000 gear who thinks money will make him a pro somehow |
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1. The receivers are not tight at all, they are in spec. Very easy to disassemble, pins slide out like butter.....zero play or slop. 2. That's right, almost no carbon in the upper. I never said it had anything to do with receiver fit. Go back and re read my post. And yes, it has much to do with timing....I time everything perfectly.. 3. Yup, there is a HUGE difference in quality between my builds and your average Colt, Bushmaster etc... 4. Actually, I am not a certified gunsmith, but I don't need to be. I have more hours of experience doing this and have handled/repaired more firearms in a week than you will probably ever own in your lifetime. This is not what I do for a living though, I own a machine shop. As for armorers, they know a lot less than you think about the AR platform. A lot of local ones here call me for help in troubleshooting issues for them, and several local gunsmiths also routinely call me for help. And yes, this is a hobby for me. I don't make a penny from helping out firearm owners here in my community. Keep in mind, "industry professionals" are concerned with turning out rifles that function, and to turn them out as quickly as possible. This is how they make a living. They are not seeking perfection in an industrial setting. If they were as perfect as you claim, then they'd never have to do warranty work. You feel me on that? Instead of posting insults, maybe you should take a step back and try to absorb some knowledge about this topic. 1. The receivers are NOT mil spec if they change the specs. Period. 2. Game chainjah. Please enlighten the class and describe in detail how you alter an ars timing by ensuring the gas tube is put in properly. And don't say heavier buffer either. 3. Someone better email colt and tell them to cancel their mil contracts. Buddy here can build better rifles in his garage. 4. Self proclaimed expert. Gotcha. You think I'm jealous of a few bushmasters you've "gunsmithed"? I assure you I'm not.: 5. Absorb what knowledge? You have zero formal training and bad mouth those that do while rocking air soft parts on your "better than colt" builds while posting bs and incorrect information? You say colts guns collect more carbon than yours because yours is "timed more better"? I don't even have words. Is your name perhaps will Hayden? |
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1. The receivers are not tight at all, they are in spec. Very easy to disassemble, pins slide out like butter.....zero play or slop. 2. That's right, almost no carbon in the upper. I never said it had anything to do with receiver fit. Go back and re read my post. And yes, it has much to do with timing....I time everything perfectly.. 3. Yup, there is a HUGE difference in quality between my builds and your average Colt, Bushmaster etc... 4. Actually, I am not a certified gunsmith, but I don't need to be. I have more hours of experience doing this and have handled/repaired more firearms in a week than you will probably ever own in your lifetime. This is not what I do for a living though, I own a machine shop. As for armorers, they know a lot less than you think about the AR platform. A lot of local ones here call me for help in troubleshooting issues for them, and several local gunsmiths also routinely call me for help. And yes, this is a hobby for me. I don't make a penny from helping out firearm owners here in my community. Keep in mind, "industry professionals" are concerned with turning out rifles that function, and to turn them out as quickly as possible. This is how they make a living. They are not seeking perfection in an industrial setting. If they were as perfect as you claim, then they'd never have to do warranty work. You feel me on that? Instead of posting insults, maybe you should take a step back and try to absorb some knowledge about this topic. 1. The receivers are NOT mil spec if they change the specs. Period. 2. Game chainjah. Please enlighten the class and describe in detail how you alter an ars timing by ensuring the gas tube is put in properly. And don't say heavier buffer either. 3. Someone better email colt and tell them to cancel their mil contracts. Buddy here can build better rifles in his garage. 4. Self proclaimed expert. Gotcha. You think I'm jealous of a few bushmasters you've "gunsmithed"? I assure you I'm not.: 5. Absorb what knowledge? You have zero formal training and bad mouth those that do while rocking air soft parts on your "better than colt" builds while posting bs and incorrect information? You say colts guns collect more carbon than yours because yours is "timed more better"? I don't even have words. Is your name perhaps will Hayden? Since it is clear that you are obviously trolling at this point, this is my last response to your replies......you build the way you want to build, and I will continue to build the way I want to build. Thanks. |
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Good info thank you. I am not really up to building things anymore. I suffer from spinal issues. Hopefully the hot dry Texas air should help. I would have bought something like a 7.62 rifle, a M1A with a 16" barrel but I can't take the recoil. So the AR is the way to go, in fact I think I like the .300 better for home defense or CQB work. My experience with the AR is in the Army and the M16A1. I remember the steel targets not going down in basic at FT. Knox armor school. So I'm not a big fan of the 5.56mm round. Although the improvements have helped a lot. And for home defense you can bet whoever tries dies, it doesn't stop with one round. Good point about having the lower in the shop. Same for guitars, as a professional you need a lot of them and they are always requiring repair and adjustment. So I know I will have to learn the basics of keeping my guns clean and in top operating condition. You convinced me to build about 10 of them. That is what I really want to do...ha ha ha ha ha ha. I can feel it and I'm like NOOOOOOO, but I will probably get the bug. Especially if prices on everything go down. I want at least 2, the 5.56 and a .300. I really like the 6.8mm but I am waiting for a dedicated rifle like the SIX8 before I get into that caliber, it might also have a little too much kick. I will have to get one of those recoil reducing stocks for the 12 gauge. Either a Knoxx or Mesa Tactical with the Endine buffer. I would recommend that you looking into a 22 lr conversion bolt from CMMG - that way you can do moar shooting and have hardly any recoil. The uppers and lowers are pretty much intercanagle - you just have to keep up wit your budget! Red 
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| I was waiting for some type of in-depth response from the guy. That's one way to kind of prove you know what you're talking about and not just spewing BS. I don't know if the guy is full of it or not, I don't know enough about the operation of the weapon. But I do know if you want to shut people up go into more detail than they can take or understand. Of course than people start saying who do you think you are Eugene Stoner or something, in that way you can't win. So if you open your mouth you should be able to prove it. After you prove it if people still question you then they are the trolls, until then you are. So I would say OK tell us a bit more and be specific, don't just run away. |
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and i like UTG gear, they work just fine. these days people pay too much attention to how expensive the gear is, money doesn't buy skill or experience, just like photography, a photographer can take a great picture with $500 camera, and beats the one with $5000 gear who thinks money will make him a pro somehow An expensive rifle doesn't mean you'll shoot well, but pot metal is pot metal. You may not get what you pay for but you never get what you don't pay for. The real problem with most UTG gear isn't the part itself, it's the fact that you'd be better off putting it towards something else in almost all cases. Back on topic, The only thing you need to do with a quality upper and lower is stick them together and push the pins in. If it's not too tight due to tolerance stacking, then you're good to go. This isn't rocket science. |
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I was waiting for some type of in-depth response from the guy. That's one way to kind of prove you know what you're talking about and not just spewing BS. I don't know if the guy is full of it or not, I don't know enough about the operation of the weapon. But I do know if you want to shut people up go into more detail than they can take or understand. Of course than people start saying who do you think you are Eugene Stoner or something, in that way you can't win. So if you open your mouth you should be able to prove it. After you prove it if people still question you then they are the trolls, until then you are. So I would say OK tell us a bit more and be specific, don't just run away. No, I didn't run away from your thread. To answer your question, the poster above who is trolling made assertions regarding topics that were never discussed in this thread. He wanted to know how one modifies the dwell time with a gas tube, when we were actually discussing the importance in custom fit between the gas key and tube to lessen fouling from minute amounts of carbon escaping back into the receiver from a poor or average fit....just one of many complex details to consider when building a quality upper. I discussed one of several elements involved in assisting carbon reduction by timing the barrel nut perfectly to float the gas tube, information supplied with one of my photos. This ensures correct engagement, creating a better seal, and also prevents the carrier from riding the tube and causing it to track upwards, causing some upper carrier bore anodizing wear you see in many, if not most, commercial rifles. Afterwards, take a look at his response and the bizarre interpretation he made. How he interpreted timing the barrel nut to accomplish these tasks as "dwell time", only he can answer that one. None of the questions he asked were even related to this topic, nor did they make any sense. He only rambled on, adding absolutely nothing to the conversation. He has either a very serious reading comprehension problem, or he is trolling by purposely derailing your thread with complete nonsense mixed in with some jealousy. I'm not sure if the guy has ever even seen an AR in real life, I honestly don't know. Judging by his posts, most likely not. If he has, then he obviously has very, very little experience with them. This is why I chose to ignore his responses. But, before he tried to hijack your thread, my original response to you was in offering to help you with your own build, or assemble an upper for you myself because you were moving to Texas, only a few hours drive from where I live. But, since you just labeled me as a troll, and are now calling my building experience into question, I'll have to withdraw that offer and unfortunately will now consider you as a typical 13'er...Good luck on your build. |
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So you control the gas by timing and get clean uppers, you mean cut a new cam slot, or just add a extra buffer to unlock a little slower??? Either way you don't get "carbon free" uppers. Your pics are of maybe a mag a piece, not anything serious. You might can slap together uppers but your accomplishments are overstated  Quoted:
2. That's right, almost no carbon in the upper. I never said it had anything to do with receiver fit. Go back and re read my post. And yes, it has much to do with timing....I time everything perfectly.. |
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Quoted: . I discussed one of several elements involved in assisting carbon reduction by timing the barrel nut perfectly to float the gas tube, information supplied with one of my photos. This ensures correct engagement, creating a better seal, and also prevents the carrier from riding the tube and causing it to track upwards, causing some upper carrier bore anodizing wear you see in many, if not most, commercial rifles. really? |
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