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Posted: 4/10/2012 7:01:39 PM EDT
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I've had a Stag Model 3 for a few months now. It's got the 16" barrel and I've put a free float hand guard on it. With reloads, I can get 5 shot groups right around an inch at 100 yds (best 4 are often 3/4").
Is this level of accuracy good, bad or indifferent? I really didn't see a lot of improvement with the free float. |
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I've had a Stag Model 3 for a few months now. It's got the 16" barrel and I've put a free float hand guard on it. With reloads, I can get 5 shot groups right around an inch at 100 yds (best 4 are often 3/4"). Is this level of accuracy good, bad or indifferent? I really didn't see a lot of improvement with the free float. Ammo? Ammo weight? Barrel twist rate? would be a couple important facts to know. |
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It's a 1:9 twist. The best group so far has been a 55 gr Sierra over Varget. Berger 60 gr looked pretty good. 50 gr V-max was all over the board.
The point of the question is whether I'm currently seeing what I can expect or if I need to keep trying to find those dime sized groups. |
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Use the rule of thumb... if the group is smaller than the size of your thumb nail at 100 yards and you don't have the thumbnails of a homeless bag lady, then it's a good group, slightly bigger than that it's pretty good.
If the group is bigger than you're hand you've got problems. Depending on how you measured it (if you measured edge to edge) it's probably a good group when you subtract out diameter of the bullet (center to center measurement). Otherwise it's a pretty good group. |
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It's a 1:9 twist. The best group so far has been a 55 gr Sierra over Varget. Berger 60 gr looked pretty good. 50 gr V-max was all over the board. The point of the question is whether I'm currently seeing what I can expect or if I need to keep trying to find those dime sized groups. That's a good group IMO, but the twist rate and bullet weight are an important factor in the equation. With your set up a 55 gr. weight bullet should be about the top performer. |
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Thanks guys. Looks like I'm close to stopping the testing and moving on with the shooting. Then I'll need to start thinking about building something that will shoot the dimes. If you want to shoot dimes, get a Noveske stainless SPR or something along those lines. |
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You'll probably see bigger but more consistent groups if you went to 10 round groups. If you are doing accuracy tresting, I would recommend shooting 10 round groups.
But for handloaded ammunition, I would expect 1 MOA accuracy. Really, the big limitation to the accuracy you can get out of an AR15 is the ammunition, not so much the rifle. All of the rifles of late all seem to be pretty good quality. |
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You'll probably see bigger but more consistent groups if you went to 10 round groups. If you are doing accuracy tresting, I would recommend shooting 10 round groups. This. You should check out some of the posts here - MOLON Collected Posts. |
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Standard grade barrels are far more accurate than most give them credit for. 1 MOA is perfectly doable with good ammo, and it appears you are there already. Really, it doesn't get much better than 1 MOA unless you have an extremely expensive match grade barrel. |
| That is what groups you are getting, if you take out the human error element I would say you have yourself one fine rifle there. I have 3 AR 15's and all have good optics on them. I try to shoot for 1 inch or less. I use the 50 grain Hornady vmax , over 26.5 grains of BLC-2 with cci 450 magnum primers. My loads duplicate the blue box Black Hills which also use the 50 gr. Hornady Vmax. I can switch back and forth between the reloads and the black hills factory ammo and not change the sight settings. You are doing well with those groups. |
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This whole discussion of "AR accuracy" kinda' cracks me up. As someone said already, the
current crop is pretty good, with 4 MOA being mil spec, and the average run of the mill running closer to 2 MOA. In my own pursuit of "AR accuracy", I started with knowing that Armalite pegs my M15 A4 at 1.5~2 MOA. In developing my hand loads, I took 2 MOA to be adequate/acceptable, but of course, I hoped to improve on that. I'm also working with a 1 in 9" twist, and I don't know why that twist gets treated like something inferior around here. 1 in 9 is, in fact, optimum for the caliber, and bullets in the 55~65 gr. weight range are, in fact, also optimum for the caliber. Never mind, for now, that there are some pure copper bullets in the works that will be long for their weight, and would therefore be better suited for the faster twist. You and I have both found that our rifles are capable of 1 MOA. I've done it with the 60 gr. Nosler ballistic tip, the Hornady 60 gr. PSP, and the Sierra 65 gr. game king, all using Varget and Winchester standard primers. The conditions on those prime shooting days were just that. Little or no wind. I was well rested and clear-headed. Even as I shot those groups, I mused at how seldom everything comes together, and how much has to be "just right" to make that kind of accuracy happen. BTW, I only test accuracy @ 200 yards. 100 seems silly to me, because I got this rifle with an 18x scope to shoot well beyond that. So, I installed the free float handguard, with no real improvement. Next would be a $300 trigger. With that, on a perfect day, I would expect to go well below MOA. Look at what else has an effect on degraded accuracy though. First is wind. My best 200 yd. group measures 1/4" high by 1.25" wide, for 5 shots. A crosswind of 3 mph can do that, and there is no way you can call it. There just has to be an end to beating yourself up with this. So, I consider what I'm likely to want to shoot. Prairie dogs? An excellent standard target is a 1 liter plastic bottle. It's easy for me to accumulate a dozen or so of those between range trips. Fill them with water, and set 'em up at the various ranges that you would expect to be shooting at on a hunt. In moderate conditions, with a little breeze, I can hit those @ 200 yds. with every single shot. More distance requires more shooting, but this would be true even if I could shoot one hole 10 shot groups in perfect conditions. My whole point is that once you have your rig set up for 1 MOA, the rest is sport, and there is no way around that. PS- I prefer those plastic bottles because I can collect them at the end of the day, and burn 'em. No range trash. |
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Standard grade barrels are far more accurate than most give them credit for. 1 MOA is perfectly doable with good ammo, and it appears you are there already. Really, it doesn't get much better than 1 MOA unless you have an extremely expensive match grade barrel. yes really they make pretty decent lower cost barrels nowadays. If the shooter has the ability to handload accuracy comes that much easier. one of the easiest loads to get accuracy from for me has been 69 SMK's over Varget or ReLoader 15. It's just that I varmint hunt so I like lighter bullets 30-50 gr. Generally a person with say a Wilson or Shaw blank properly chambered with their own handloads, is going to spank a fella with a top of the line barrel shooting 55 gr. ball factory box stuff 
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All this talk of MOA by the "internet sharpshooters" is ridonkulous. In a high pressure situation you will not be able to shoot like that. Learn to shoot MOP (minute of perp) and you will be just fine. If you take a LE type blue silhouette and can stay inside the blue from the max distance you set your rifle up to shoot at, then you are golden. A hit on target is a hit on target. Make sure all 30 rounds of a mag stay in the blue. I can guarantee without one single bit of doubt that the object you are shoot at will be neutralized if you do that. |
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All this talk of MOA by the "internet sharpshooters" is ridonkulous. In a high pressure situation you will not be able to shoot like that. Learn to shoot MOP (minute of perp) and you will be just fine. If you take a LE type blue silhouette and can stay inside the blue from the max distance you set your rifle up to shoot at, then you are golden. A hit on target is a hit on target. Make sure all 30 rounds of a mag stay in the blue. I can guarantee without one single bit of doubt that the object you are shoot at will be neutralized if you do that. Bullshit. Aim small, miss small. Dirt shooters that say "all I need to do is be able to shoot minute of bad guy" are invariably the ones forgetting the fundamentals and slinging shots wildly under stress. I train using a variety of different methods to develop different skills, but I do take into account the accuracy of my weapon and the precision of my shooting. If you practice to hold a 1" group in training, you have a good chance of keeping all your rounds "in the black" under stress. Unless your training can accurately replicate the Sturm und Drang of a live fire, two-way engagement, training with a "Minute of Perp" mentality is a recipie for failure, because your skills will almost certainly deteriorate when it's "the real thing." Learn to shoot to the practical mechanical accuracy of your weapon regardless, and tailor your weapon choices to your abilities - you don't "need" more than 4 MOA to engage "minute of perp" at 600m - *if* you train right. If you don't, you won't be able to hit anything even with a 1 MOA weapon once rounds start coming the other way. ~Augee |
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All this talk of MOA by the "internet sharpshooters" is ridonkulous. In a high pressure situation you will not be able to shoot like that. Learn to shoot MOP (minute of perp) and you will be just fine. If you take a LE type blue silhouette and can stay inside the blue from the max distance you set your rifle up to shoot at, then you are golden. A hit on target is a hit on target. Make sure all 30 rounds of a mag stay in the blue. I can guarantee without one single bit of doubt that the object you are shoot at will be neutralized if you do that. I think you'd be better at shootin paper plates at 50 yards than ground squirrel @ 300
90% of the folks on this site won't be shootin bad guy's Stateside anyways |
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All this talk of MOA by the "internet sharpshooters" is ridonkulous. In a high pressure situation you will not be able to shoot like that. Learn to shoot MOP (minute of perp) and you will be just fine. If you take a LE type blue silhouette and can stay inside the blue from the max distance you set your rifle up to shoot at, then you are golden. A hit on target is a hit on target. Make sure all 30 rounds of a mag stay in the blue. I can guarantee without one single bit of doubt that the object you are shoot at will be neutralized if you do that. your aimpoint and eotech ain't gonna help you at that far treeline bustin Chuck's here. Ya might scare a Chuck or 2. my night time callin rig would probably suite a shooters needs for a CQB weapon though. Hey different strokes for different folks. I like accurate rifles! and this platform is hard to beat in a autoloader
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Hey different strokes for different folks. I like accurate rifles! and this platform is hard to beat in a autoloader
http://i1089.photobucket.com/albums/i342/lennyzrx/001-7.jpg I like accurate rifles also and while MOA isn't a sure-bet thing with most, the tighter the group the better, and training to hit small targets IMO always trumps training to hit big ones. Hey, Pappyo, I like that Brown Mag. Here's a green one, but I have a brown one or two or 4 loaded up, too! {THANKS!} These weren't shot at that treeline...but when I scope the new onecoming, I'll be expecting it to! 
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Hey different strokes for different folks. I like accurate rifles! and this platform is hard to beat in a autoloader
http://i1089.photobucket.com/albums/i342/lennyzrx/001-7.jpg I like accurate rifles also and while MOA isn't a sure-bet thing with most, the tighter the group the better, and training to hit small targets IMO always trumps training to hit big ones. Hey, Pappyo, I like that Brown Mag. Here's a green one, but I have a brown one or two or 4 loaded up, too! {THANKS!} These weren't shot at that treeline...but when I scope the new onecoming, I'll be expecting it to! http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e115/Skaapskieter/RangeDayandBaitShooting04072012/aaaaRangeDayBaitShootingBuggers.jpg like Augee said! Aim small miss small! 20's are easier sometimes. Were about out of fur season here, warm winter/spring here. let'em walk.......................... EVR if ya need a cheap piece of glass to get them little fellas drop me a pm. I'll set ya up with a cheap rig for shippin costs. lord knows I have enough shit around here 
EVR. as alway's your in the field hunting  good shootin!
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