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Posted: 3/12/2012 6:29:36 AM EDT
| I am embarrassed to share this story because I consider myself a safe and conscientious gun owner. Out shooting this weekend with a buddy. I had my LMT AR15 on a table plinking away. I had a FTF, waited 30 seconds and ejected the round. We were out in the mountains and the ground cover was pretty thick and I couldn't find the round. The first thought that went through my head was, "I need to check the barrel". After not finding the round, and unexplainable to myself, I went back to the table and fired my gun. Kaboom....! I had smoke coming out of my magazine, my buddy looked over at me. WTF? I was sure I had just totaled my barrel. The spent shell was lodged in the bolt carrier to the point I need a pair of needle nose to get it out. The only logical explanation was the bullet lodged in the barrel because I did eventually find the ejected round and it had no bullet in it. These was a reload and while I have never experienced it before there must not have been powder in the case and the primer spit the bullet into the barrel. I am very lucky that myself or my buddy wasn't hurt. This was a complete breakdown of everything I know about guns and procedures. The good news, after breaking down my LMT, I can see no visual damage to the barrel or bolt. Clearly the bullet/bullets exited the barrel but created quite the pressure spike in the process. Not sure if I should send the barrel back for inspection but I suspect it is ok and a testament to the quality of a Mike Rock barrel. I do not look at this incident as a reload failure as much as a procedural failure. Had I followed my gut from the beginning I would probably be writing a different scenario now. |
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Quoted:
I am embarrassed to share this story because I consider myself a safe and conscientious gun owner. Out shooting this weekend with a buddy. I had my LMT AR15 on a table plinking away. I had a FTF, waited 30 seconds and ejected the round. We were out in the mountains and the ground cover was pretty thick and I couldn't find the round. The first thought that went through my head was, "I need to check the barrel". After not finding the round, and unexplainable to myself, I went back to the table and fired my gun. Kaboom....! I had smoke coming out of my magazine, my buddy looked over at me. WTF? I was sure I had just totaled my barrel. The spent shell was lodged in the bolt carrier to the point I need a pair of needle nose to get it out. The only logical explanation was the bullet lodged in the barrel because I did eventually find the ejected round and it had no bullet in it. These was a reload and while I have never experienced it before there must not have been powder in the case and the primer spit the bullet into the barrel. I am very lucky that myself or my buddy wasn't hurt. This was a complete breakdown of everything I know about guns and procedures. The good news, after breaking down my LMT, I can see no visual damage to the barrel or bolt. Clearly the bullet/bullets exited the barrel but created quite the pressure spike in the process. Not sure if I should send the barrel back for inspection but I suspect it is ok and a testament to the quality of a Mike Rock barrel. I do not look at this incident as a reload failure as much as a procedural failure. Had I followed my gut from the beginning I would probably be writing a different scenario now. Yep, you were lucky. I would send the upper back. Bolt condition. Lugs. Headspace. Be nice to see how it air gauges. |
| Glad nobody was hurt. Usually squib loads make the pfft sound and on case ejection its extra sooty, and see some smoke/residue from chamber. At our IDPA matches a guy had a squib but a lot of people knew the sound and 10 guys yelled out "SQUIB" and he ceased fired and was able to clear properly. |
| I had a similar thing happen with a commercially built 7.62x39 AR upper but I was fortunate to have noticed the case ejected with no bullet and the ejection port area was covered up with unburned powder. There was nary a sound except for the hammer dropping. I noticed that the ejected case sounded light due to my not wearing hearing protection because I was in the process of trying to work out some of the other kinks the upper had. I boxed it up, sent it back, and got a full refund. I will never buy another. |
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Glad nobody was hurt. Usually squib loads make the pfft sound and on case ejection its extra sooty, and see some smoke/residue from chamber. At our IDPA matches a guy had a squib but a lot of people knew the sound and 10 guys yelled out "SQUIB" and he ceased fired and was able to clear properly. That's good, heads up range discipline/awareness right there. |
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Quoted: See this way to often. Actually has nothing to do with the reload. It was my fault for not following a procedure. Had I checked the barrel it would have been no harm no foul. I have had plenty of factory rounds FTF over the years. Thank you for posting your experience. It truly is the cool thing to do.  The moderators might want to think about a sticky thread made up of these stories. Noob's are always asking for technical advice or what brand should I buy. Reminding them that safety procedures are THE most important things to learn FIRST would not be a bad idea - And having experienced shooters tell their stories might make them a little stickier in everyone's memory.  |
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Had a similar experience while shouting a reload past summer. Made absolutely no sound other than the click of the firing pin. It Jammed my rifle pretty good. Want able to takedown or really even move charging handle. After finally getting it to extract I saw out of the corner . my eye that it looked like a shell without a bullet in it. Searched for a minute and didn't find any round with the bullet still in them. Broke it down, checked barrel. Sure enough there was a bullet stock in barrel. Lucky for me I followed procedure that day.
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Thank you for posting your experience. It truly is the cool thing to do.
The moderators might want to think about a sticky thread made up of these stories. Noob's are always asking for technical advice or what brand should I buy. Reminding them that safety procedures are THE most important things to learn FIRST would not be a bad idea - And having experienced shooters tell their stories might make them a little stickier in everyone's memory. Not sure I want a sticky based around my F.U. but I did want to share. I have been around guns my entire adult life. I'm 58 and definitely not a nooby. I shoot 20 to 30 thousand rounds a year including my skeet shooting. I reload all of my ammo. I am VERY mad at myself for letting this happen and I did let it happen. I never would have thought I would be involved in an accident like this so it is an eye opener for sure. It's quite possible we get TOO comfortable and/or over confident in our handling of firearms, kind of like driving a car. I have taught many to shoot and absolutely pound safety into the learning process. I can only walk away from this as a learning experience and thankful no one got hurt. I have a keltec su16 in 223, and if this had happened in that gun, there is no doubt it would have blowd that gun up and maybe me too. |
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Quoted: Thank you for posting your experience. It truly is the cool thing to do. The moderators might want to think about a sticky thread made up of these stories. Noob's are always asking for technical advice or what brand should I buy. Reminding them that safety procedures are THE most important things to learn FIRST would not be a bad idea - And having experienced shooters tell their stories might make them a little stickier in everyone's memory. Not sure I want a sticky based around my F.U. but I did want to share. I have been around guns my entire adult life. I'm 58 and definitely not a nooby. I shoot 20 to 30 thousand rounds a year including my skeet shooting. I reload all of my ammo. I am VERY mad at myself for letting this happen and I did let it happen. I never would have thought I would be involved in an accident like this so it is an eye opener for sure. It's quite possible we get TOO comfortable and/or over confident in our handling of firearms, kind of like driving a car. I have taught many to shoot and absolutely pound safety into the learning process. I can only walk away from this as a learning experience and thankful no one got hurt. I have a keltec su16 in 223, and if this had happened in that gun, there is no doubt it would have blowd that gun up and maybe me too. Amen to everything you've said there. I am your age and have stressed safety over everything else to everyone I've taught to shoot. Maybe a better idea is for the moderators to remove the poster's name from a sticky thread but don't lose the lesson learned?  |
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Thanks for sharing. I imagine if it were a true squib though, you would have a kaboom'd gun for sure. Also, not to nit-pick, but it was proven some time ago by Molon (I believe) that a reload with no powder and only a primer will not have enough power to get the round into the barrel, it will not leave the casing. |
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Quoted:
Thanks for sharing. I imagine if it were a true squib though, you would have a kaboom'd gun for sure. Also, not to nit-pick, but it was proven some time ago by Molon (I believe) that a reload with no powder and only a primer will not have enough power to get the round into the barrel, it will not leave the casing. What is a true squib ? |
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I imagine if it were a true squib though, you would have a kaboom'd gun for sure.
Oh trust me, I had a kaboom. There is no other explanation for what happened other than a squib. I believe the bullet was probably just inside the forcing cone or the barrel. When the next round chambered, the two bullets ended up very close to touching each other and that is the only thing that saved me from a catastrophic event. This created a massive pressure spike but fortunately the bullets were pushed out the barrel. Had the bullet been further down the barrel...well I can only imagine. I have replayed this event a thousand times in my head (kicking myself in the ass each time) and I can not come up with any other conclusion. I am taking my LMT to the gunsmith today and having him check it out for potential damage. |
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lucky.. & VERY good idea to have it really checked...
When I hear an odd noise (or possible squib sound) I break out my mini-led light and the cleaning rod from the trunk.. 
I don't know what would be worse and make me cry longer.. blowing up my $800 upper or the injury?? 
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Glad you are ok and thanks for posting this experience. Too often things turn out worse, must have been one helluva pressure spike.
Am curious what caused the squib, partial ignition? Luckily the first bullet was still close to the chamber or the results would have been much different. Please let us know what the gunsmith finds, would be surprised to find no damage is found, but hope I am wrong. Maybe me or someone else will reflect on this lesson in the future and overt repeating it. Thanks for reporting this. We are human and make mistakes, don't beat yourself up. |
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Please let us know what the gunsmith finds, would be surprised to find no damage is found, but hope I am wrong.
I am curious as to "how" he will test it. I can not see any visual signs of damage but it is pretty difficult to see anything in a 1-7 twist barrel. I will report back when I know something and I hope you are wrong also. There is something to be said for a quality battle rifle. |
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Had that happen with a S&W 44 Mag.
Buddy's handgun, and unbeknownst to me at the time some hand me down reload. Full Cylinder, 3 shots, no problem, 4th was squib. I dumped the rounds and as I am collecting and inspecting brass the pollock reloads the gun. I notice 4 bullet-less cartridges of the 6 and immediately stopped him... The 4th was lodged into the barrel and we up having to drill through the center of the bullet to hammer it out. That almost made some one a single handed lover. |
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I just don't see how this isn't as much a reload issue as a procedural issue.?
If it was a reload issue we would be talking about it in another forum. I can tell you that this ammo was several years old, so it is impossible for me to identify any procedural problems at the bench. Had I followed the proper protocol and checked the damn barrel like I should have, it would have been a non event. I have had and seen many FTF on the skeet range leaving a wad in the barrel and needing a rod to push it out. All non events. |
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Glad nobody was hurt.
That said - Rounds could sit for years and still be good if stored properly. This is an issue of reloading as well as procedure. I realize you have been doing this for many years but YOU produced the round and the primary reason of a squib is not enough or no powder in the casing. I am not saying that is the only reason but by far the most likely. Something likely went wrong with your reloading. We're human, mistakes happen but I would be checking the rest of your rounds. Weighing every round one by one to make sure they all weigh the same just MHO. Lesson learned. |
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His point is that if he'd listened to his gut and/or followed what he knew was the proper safety procedure the squib load would have been a non event. No danger, no risk, no damage, just some annoyance. Squibs can happen with factory ammo and reloads, any brand, any caliber, many reasons. He's just pointing out that safety procedures really are vital and make a difference.
For the record, I've been reloading for about 11 year now and never had a squib on my reloads. I've had several with factory ammo, along with several complete duds with both. In my case, all the squibs were pistol rounds, and all were what we generally consider high quality brands around here. Over enough rounds you will almost certainly encounter one regardless of your ammo, if nothing else primers are not 100% perfect and other than obvious flaws it's very difficult to detect during the loading process. At least in hand reloading it's a bit easier if you're manually filling primer tubes or priming cases, since you generally see each primer individually top and bottom. |
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His point is that if he'd listened to his gut and/or followed what he knew was the proper safety procedure the squib load would have been a non event. No danger, no risk, no damage, just some annoyance. Squibs can happen with factory ammo and reloads, any brand, any caliber, many reasons. He's just pointing out that safety procedures really are vital and make a difference.
Thank you, I thought I was starting to beat my head against the wall. Glad you get it. For the record YES there was obviously a problem with the reload, it happens and I can live with it. I can't accept my failure to follow a basic tenant of gun safety and posted this to examine that failure, NOT to discuss my reloads. Most accidents occur from a series of bad decisions. My first bad decision was to not find the ejected round, which would have been fairly telling, "where is the bullet?". My second bad decision was not checking the barrel, and the last bad decision was pulling the trigger. BTW, I had about 100 of these older rounds and I broke them all down, resized, reprimed and reloaded. I did not find any issues with any of them. |
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Quoted:
His point is that if he'd listened to his gut and/or followed what he knew was the proper safety procedure the squib load would have been a non event. No danger, no risk, no damage, just some annoyance. Squibs can happen with factory ammo and reloads, any brand, any caliber, many reasons. He's just pointing out that safety procedures really are vital and make a difference.
Thank you, I thought I was starting to beat my head against the wall. Glad you get it. For the record YES there was obviously a problem with the reload, it happens and I can live with it. I can't accept my failure to follow a basic tenant of gun safety and posted this to examine that failure, NOT to discuss my reloads. Most accidents occur from a series of bad decisions. My first bad decision was to not find the ejected round, which would have been fairly telling, "where is the bullet?". My second bad decision was not checking the barrel, and the last bad decision was pulling the trigger. BTW, I had about 100 of these older rounds and I broke them all down, resized, reprimed and reloaded. I did not find any issues with any of them. Good on you for starting the thread. One thing I'll take away from this thread is to always be listening when at the range. Your quick recognition and verbal warning can save someone else's bacon, as well. |
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When a round fails to fire, it might be best to just stop and try to figure out what went wrong and not continue until you are sure everything is fine. The tactical drills are OK if you are in a life and death situation but when you are firing at the range it's better to follow the safest practices than just blindly doing drills of tap, rack and shoot.
If the round had not got lost in the grass, the OP would have found the problem before it turned into a kaboom. When a fail to fire occurs. Stop and check it out. That's what the OP is saying. |
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Quoted:
When a round fails to fire, it might be best to just stop and try to figure out what went wrong and not continue until you are sure everything is fine. The tactical drills are OK if you are in a life and death situation but when you are firing at the range it's better to follow the safest practices than just blindly doing drills of tap, rack and shoot. If the round had not got lost in the grass, the OP would have found the problem before it turned into a kaboom. When a fail to fire occurs. Stop and check it out. That's what the OP is saying. Pretty sure that everyone got that loud and clear after the opening post. I went beyond that by noting that one of the posters mentioned the scenario that I highlighted. When amongst other shooters (at the range) someone had a squib. The aware shooters recognized it and instantly stopped and yelled "SQUIB !" Awareness like that is a very good thing. |
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Quoted:
I just don't see how this isn't as much a reload issue as a procedural issue.?
If it was a reload issue we would be talking about it in another forum. I can tell you that this ammo was several years old, so it is impossible for me to identify any procedural problems at the bench. Had I followed the proper protocol and checked the damn barrel like I should have, it would have been a non event. I have had and seen many FTF on the skeet range leaving a wad in the barrel and needing a rod to push it out. All non events. Reason I replyed about the reload is because I often times fire two or three rounds quickly, If I did hear a "squib misfire" I may not catch it before the next round were fired off. For that and your situation my pesonal opinion would be to view this as a load issue. Not saying you wrong, just saying I think if I were in the situation the round, reload or otherwise would be my issue. |
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Reason I replyed about the reload is because I often times fire two or three rounds quickly, If I did hear a "squib misfire" I may not catch it before the next round were fired off. That's exactly why this was a thread was about following procedure. With a squib, be it factory or reload, it manifests as an extremely under-powered load. The action doesn't cycle. Now it's time for proper procedure to kick in. For that and your situation my pesonal opinion would be to view this as a load issue. Not saying you wrong, just saying I think if I were in the situation the round, reload or otherwise would be my issue.
The load issue was a given.....shoot enough and it will happen to you....factory or reload. I commend the OP for starting the thread and making us aware of what to do in the event of a squib. |
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Quoted:That's exactly why this was a thread was about following procedure.
With a squib, be it factory or reload, it manifests as an extremely under-powered load. The action doesn't cycle. Now it's time for proper procedure to kick in. OK I misinterpereted what happend, I agree 100%. |
| WoooHooo, just got a call from my smitty and he said my gun checked out fine, a testament to the value of buying a quality firearm. L M T, "When failure is not an option". My smitty said that there was probably 90,000 lbs of pressure built on that SNAFU. I'm sure he will use my story next time he tries to sell another LMT. |
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Quoted: WoooHooo, just got a call from my smitty and he said my gun checked out fine, a testament to the value of buying a quality firearm. L M T, "When failure is not an option". My smitty said that there was probably 90,000 lbs of pressure built on that SNAFU. I'm sure he will use my story next time he tries to sell another LMT. Excellent news! Glad this worked out his well for you.  |
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