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Posted: 8/1/2011 5:10:22 PM EDT
| I remember reading about a DI AR15 that had some ridiculously high round count through it without cleaning. I have been searching for it, but can't find it again. I think it may have been a BCM, but I'm not sure of that. I also think it was run up to that round count by EAG tactical, but again I'm not sure. Does anyone know what I'm talking about? Can you help me find the article? I have been in a debate about DI vs Piston and would love to use that article. |
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Search Filthy 14 I think it is. Which is a sample size of one mind you. (know your enemy)  I believe any quality AR would perform the same. I believe any quality one, in a trained users hands, would as well. But it's still a sample of one. I add that foot-note because I think it's important to note how often one person's results are all but dismissed because they are "a sample size of one". While this is an extreme, and quite publicized case involving a very good manufacturer and a very capable user, it is still just that. A sample of one. I wish he'd had half a dozen at least and run that length of time. But I don't wish it very much because I don't doubt they would run about the same, as would any quality AR. :) |
| if it was a guy whose BCM turned out to be a complete pile of shit, it would be dismissed immiedately because its 1 of xxxx bcm guns that has problems. if its 1 of xxxx guns that has gone through some rediculous torture test, that somehow signifies that all bcm guns are that good, and nothing else on the planet can match the superiorness of bcm. |
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if it was a guy whose BCM turned out to be a complete pile of shit, it would be dismissed immiedately because its 1 of xxxx bcm guns that has problems. if its 1 of xxxx guns that has gone through some rediculous torture test, that somehow signifies that all bcm guns are that good, and nothing else on the planet can match the superiorness of bcm. Then tell us all about your 'pile of shit' BCM. With details and pics, preferably. |
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That's a hair less diplomatic than I'd have tried to put it, but pretty much sums it up.
BCM is great, I like what I've used of there's, I'd buy something from them it was ever in stock when I was shopping. But I believe in being fair and honest, and while good surface marketing, it's just that. |
| As far as I'm concerned, it's a good example of what a quality AR is capable of reliability-wise. Now, with the understanding that Filthy 14 is being used in carbine courses, and they have armorers working on it, it's certainly not something I would do with my rifles. My rifles could be used as SHTF guns at some point in my or my kids lives, and I keep mine ready to go, (cleaned, etc.) when they go back into the safe or by my bedside. |
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if it was a guy whose BCM turned out to be a complete pile of shit, it would be dismissed immiedately because its 1 of xxxx bcm guns that has problems. if its 1 of xxxx guns that has gone through some rediculous torture test, that somehow signifies that all bcm guns are that good, and nothing else on the planet can match the superiorness of bcm. Then tell us all about your 'pile of shit' BCM. With details and pics, preferably. You are missing the point, he's not saying anything about a BCM piece specifically at all. Think bigger picture. Or think of it this way, picture the most raggedy, cheap, crappy ill-made AR you can, and imagine if, somehow, one of them made it through a test like this. Imagine what would be thought and said about it. Again, BCM = great. It isn't so much about them as it is the validity/or not of testing and experience. |
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Quoted: That's a hair less diplomatic than I'd have tried to put it, but pretty much sums it up. BCM is great, I like what I've used of there's, I'd buy something from them it was ever in stock when I was shopping. But I believe in being fair and honest, and while good surface marketing, it's just that. Someone here ran something like 20k of wolf through a mostly Model 1 AR without cleaning. I don't think that article proves anything about the specific manufacturer but it's of some value to the people who believe the gunstore bullshit about ARs being fragile rifles that jam if you look at them sideways. I have a "cobbled together hobby gun" that I think I won't bother cleaning but it only has a few hundred rounds through it so far.
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That's a hair less diplomatic than I'd have tried to put it, but pretty much sums it up. BCM is great, I like what I've used of there's, I'd buy something from them it was ever in stock when I was shopping. But I believe in being fair and honest, and while good surface marketing, it's just that. Someone here ran something like 20k of wolf through a mostly Model 1 AR without cleaning. I don't think that article proves anything about the specific manufacturer but it's of some value to the people who believe the gunstore bullshit about ARs being fragile rifles that jam if you look at them sideways. I have a "cobbled together hobby gun" that I think I won't bother cleaning but it only has a few hundred rounds through it so far. Yep, there ya go. In fact I plan my next one to be either a retro-ish rifle length, or an as cheap as I can build one carbine to abuse. Fun :) |
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Good components, put together by competent people will always perform well.
Like many things, the devil is in the details, and many companies have started figuring out that consumers actually do care about the details, like M4 feedramps, gas key staking, castle nut staking, etc. BCM and a few other companies go the extra mile to use quality components from reputable manufacturers or make components to the correct spec in house, and it shows. |
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if it was a guy whose BCM turned out to be a complete pile of shit, it would be dismissed immiedately because its 1 of xxxx bcm guns that has problems. if its 1 of xxxx guns that has gone through some rediculous torture test, that somehow signifies that all bcm guns are that good, and nothing else on the planet can match the superiorness of bcm. Then tell us all about your 'pile of shit' BCM. With details and pics, preferably. please change your BCM underoos and re-read what i said. i in no way shape or form said anything derrogatory about BCM or their products...it was a simple agreement with hypothetical examples for the sample of one theory posted by wolf. i dont own a BCM rifle, but i dont think their products are crap (a little overpriced but thats neither here nor there). i have BCM parts on my frankenguns though, they have gotten plenty of business from me and will continue to do so. |
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You could probably take a (insert 'hobby gun' brand here) insert a quality bcg (or even stake your own), and run the Filthy 14 test with near identical results. This upsets many people, but people believe an AR15 is more complicated than it really is.
AR15 upper 4140 vs 4150 vs CHF? For this test, the quality of barrel factors minimally. 1:7 or 1:9 - They both shoot 55 gr FMJ fine (which is what 99.999999% of all AR owners EVER shoot). Upper receiver - Most manufacturers (Stag to Noveske) use CMT uppers - and they work. Bolt Carrier Group - Overwhelmingly the single biggest deciding factor in reliability - but you can swap BCG's are interchangeable. You could put a Fail Zero in a DPMS upper. Tapered pins/parkerizing under the FSB//F marked FSB - do nothing for reliability. My LMT upper with straight pins and no parkerizing under the FSB went through hell and back. Charging handles - ALL of them are internally flawed and should be upgraded to the Gunfighter if you are really pushing these guns. Properly marked T-markings? My SR15 has the dullest markings of ANY ar15 I have seen. AR15 lower Staked castle nut? If not staked,DYI or loctite. They both work. Mil Spec or Comm Spec buffer tube - they both work. I have never seen nor heard of a commercial spec tube failing. Lower Receiver - A lower is a lower, for the most part. Lower Parts Kit - Noveske uses a CMT kit. LaRue is rumored to use DPMS. The bolt catch is the most stressed lower part on an AR15, and can be upgraded quite easily. And while I am guilty of it as much as anyone, there are diminishing returns and people pay absurd premiums for A) Small increases in performance B) stuff you can EASILY and cheaply do yourself [ex: staking or loctiting a castle nut, staking a carrier key] or C) Both. And before I get accused of owning a 'hobby gun' and 'hating' - I own a SR15e3, a BCM, and a Spike's (all the current popular arfcom flavors). While a BCM upper or rifle is of very high quality, that test doesn't prove as much about the BCM as it does the DI gas system. |
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