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Posted: 6/27/2011 6:20:26 AM EDT
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I built two AR carbines, one a mid-lenght gas tube and the other a carbine length. They are both BCM uppers with M16 BCM bolts sitting on Spikes' lowers.
No fancy triggers, just what came in the parts kit. I do cheap-out on ammo. I reload and buy bullet heads by the thousand like cheapo Armscore. I use TAC and H335 powder with WSR primers. I reloaded both 55 and 62 grainers. My 100yd groups are dismal at best. I performed a good cleaning and removed all the copper fowling....I think. If I woud open up my wallet and buy some match grade ammo, what kind of 100yd groups could I expect? Both of these carbines have new looking bores. What brand of loaded match bullets would be a good choice? Thank you. These carbines were never over-heated, and they have 1:7 twists. |
| Shooting handloaded FMJ bullets out of a chrome lined barrel? I wouldnt expect anything better than 2 MOA if that. Since you handload and have TAC powder, buy some 77gr Sierras and see what happens. Factory ammo such as Federal match, Black hills, and Hornady match should give you a good idea on what your rifle is capable of. |
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Please refer to the first three posts in this content archive entry by Molon: http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=237 You didn't state what your accuracy is, but you may have been led astray by reading too many reports from people with stock rifles shooting surplus ammo claiming that they shoot sub-MOA "all day long". |
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Shooting handloaded FMJ bullets out of a chrome lined barrel? I wouldnt expect anything better than 2 MOA if that. Since you handload and have TAC powder, buy some 77gr Sierras and see what happens. Factory ammo such as Federal match, Black hills, and Hornady match should give you a good idea on what your rifle is capable of. Just that, those three are sort of the holy trinity of basic match grade ammo for AR's. I use the Widener's 62 grain bulk (lead core) for plinking and get anywhere from 1.5-2.5 moa depending on other factors. I can keep it consistent to around 1.5 if I want, but if I leave the OAL in spec but not what I've found is best with that bullet it climbs a bit. I'm planning to switch to their bulk M193 bullets just to stay closer to my other preferred load, which is a 55 grain Game King bullet. If you want more accuracy from a 55 grain FMJ on the cheap, check out the hornady FMJ's, a lot of us have seen significantly better than average results with them. Using essentially the same load as the game king I can get 1moa or even occasionally just under that. I do ten round groups, so it's not just pure luck, but I've never pinned down what was special about those sets that were sub moa, probably just all the ducks in a perfect row right then and I did my part just right. |
| as much depends on the shooter as depends on the ammo. If you are capable usually the rifle is. the info you have recieved at groups between 2" and 3.5" at 100 yards for a carbine with iron sights and standard FMJ ammo is about what I would expect as well from the gun, IF the shooter is capable....<><....:) |
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If you have enough magnification, shooting FGMM or Hornady you should be able to shoot around 1 moa at 100 no problem. But it's on you... Wrong. There's no guarantee that an off-the-rack rifle will produce 1 moa "no problem". +1 In fact, that would be rare. |
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If you have enough magnification, shooting FGMM or Hornady you should be able to shoot around 1 moa at 100 no problem. But it's on you... Wrong. There's no guarantee that an off-the-rack rifle will produce 1 moa "no problem". +1 In fact, that would be rare. +2....<><....:) |
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If you have enough magnification, shooting FGMM or Hornady you should be able to shoot around 1 moa at 100 no problem. But it's on you... Wrong. There's no guarantee that an off-the-rack rifle will produce 1 moa "no problem". +1 In fact, that would be rare. yep. I really don't care what anyone says! feed a top of the line barrel a SHIT diet and you will get shit results! cheap ass open base bullets produce shit as far as accuracy. 50 gr. TNT's is about my limit on the cheap bullets I'll reload! give me a $100.00 barrel and I'll find a load, give me a $3-$400.00 tube with shit ball factory ammo and that $100.00 tube with a load it likes will spank it! That's just the way shit happens with rifle barrels! |
"I reload and buy bullet heads by the thousand" 
ETA Seriously though, you already have TAC, good. Now buy a box (100) of Hornady 55 FMJ's.Trim brass to 1.750-1.755,stick 25.0 of TAC in a case with the Hornady 55 FMJ's seated to mid cannelure and the same primer and report back. If that don't shoot good, it's either you or the rifle. |
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.... I do cheap-out on ammo. I reload and buy bullet heads by the thousand like cheapo Armscore. I use TAC and H335 powder with WSR primers. I reloaded both 55 and 62 grainers. ..... Quit cutting corners on ammo. Buy some Hornady .224 68gr BTHP bullets, some IMR 4895 powder and Winchester Primers. Open your Hornady reloading manual to the .223 AR-15 service rifle data. Work up a safe load your rifle likes, and your accuracy problems will be solved. My Colt AR-15A2, 20" barrel with the 1/7 twist shoots 23.7grs of IMR 4895 the best. |
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If you have enough magnification, shooting FGMM or Hornady you should be able to shoot around 1 moa at 100 no problem. But it's on you... Wrong. There's no guarantee that an off-the-rack rifle will produce 1 moa "no problem". +1 In fact, that would be rare. It's funny because over the last few years a bunch of companies, on ~$1000 AR's have made 1 moa guarantees on certain rifles (heck RRA still publishes 3/4 MOA on some rifle specs). Between that fact and the anecdotal results myself and my friends have had ... it doesn't seem to rare to me, especially since I specified high quality/match ammo, not surplus or wolf/crap. If on a quality rifle, with match ammo, and sufficient magnification you can't do 1 moa at 100 yards, I suggest you read this article on the secrets of shooting somewhat accurately. It will probably have the answer to your accuracy problem. http://tinyurl.com/accuracysecret |
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If I were you I'd try a better trigger first depending how shitty yours is. The factory trigger seem to range from ok to downright horrid depending.
After I had a decent trigger I'd give the Hornady 55's a try for bulk plinking work and probably try out some Sierra Matchkings. The SMK's are pricey, you probably wont use them as a plinking load. Frankly from what it sounds though you shouldnt be disappointed with what you are getting right now. |
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Quoted: If I were you I'd try a better trigger first depending how shitty yours is. The factory trigger seem to range from ok to downright horrid depending. After I had a decent trigger I'd give the Hornady 55's a try for bulk plinking work and probably try out some Sierra Matchkings. The SMK's are pricey, you probably wont use them as a plinking load. Frankly from what it sounds though you shouldnt be disappointed with what you are getting right now. And that's the key right there. Like I said earlier: There are too many folks who think their gear is messed up because of unrealistic expectations set by internet commandos. |
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Quoted: It's funny because over the last few years a bunch of companies, on ~$1000 AR's have made 1 moa guarantees on certain rifles (heck RRA still publishes 3/4 MOA on some rifle specs). Between that fact and the anecdotal results myself and my friends have had ... it doesn't seem to rare to me, especially since I specified high quality/match ammo, not surplus or wolf/crap. If on a quality rifle, with match ammo, and sufficient magnification you can't do 1 moa at 100 yards, I suggest you read this article on the secrets of shooting somewhat accurately. It will probably have the answer to your accuracy problem. http://tinyurl.com/accuracysecret I'm curious how big of a group they guarantee under 1 MOA? How many shots are in your groupings? It would be very easy for them to dismiss your 3 shot group that isn't 1 MOA due to a "flyer" that "must've been the shooter" and then you shoot it again and "roll the dice properly" and get your under 1 MOA group. I would be EXTREMELY surprised if RRA would guarantee 1 MOA or less from a 10+ shot group. And yes, you do need to shoot more than 5 shot groups to get a true measurement of accuracy from the gun. 3 and 5 shot groups, while indicative to a point, do not prove the true accuracy of the barrel. The more shots you take, the closer you become to getting a true measurement of the weapon's capability. This is, of course, assuming the shooter doesn't mess up during those shots. Even with the gun viced down, a 10 shot group from most rifle will open up a lot compared to a 3 or 5 shot group. That's because it's easy to "get lucky" on a 3 or 5 shot group. |
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I'd say a stock barrel with match ammo is capable of at least 1.5 MOA, probably 1 MOA from the bench. They are far more accurate than many give them credit for. That said, a quality match barrel with match ammo should be capable of sub minute accuracy. Doesn't make a huge difference at 100 yards, but out at 600 yards, the difference is substantial.
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I'd say a stock barrel with match ammo is capable of at least 1.5 MOA, probably 1 MOA from the bench. They are far more accurate than many give them credit for. That said, a quality match barrel with match ammo should be capable of sub minute accuracy. Doesn't make a huge difference at 100 yards, but out at 600 yards, the difference is substantial. My personal feelings on it are probably not. However I would be willing to concede to the fact that some stock barrels are quite the shooters but I dont think that is the running average. Of course the fact of the matter is I dont believe anyone is in a position to do a meaningful test using a decent sample size of say 500 stock barrels to put the question to rest! 
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Quoted: I'd say a stock barrel with match ammo is capable of at least 1.5 MOA, probably 1 MOA from the bench. They are far more accurate than many give them credit for. That said, a quality match barrel with match ammo should be capable of sub minute accuracy. Doesn't make a huge difference at 100 yards, but out at 600 yards, the difference is substantial. Molon's evaluations of stock barrels with match ammo show that to be incorrect. |
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Barrels can be very picky, two very similar loads can give very different results. Bullets that perform great for one barrel might be worthless in the next.
Great example. I was working on a load for 69 grain Nosler Custom Competition bullets, these are considered pretty good match grade bullets. In one rifle, just shy of MOA was doable, but no better with any of the variations I tried. That same rifle does sub MOA with Sierra Game King bullets, just doesn't like the 69 grain CC's. Another rifle, which is an actual match grade stainless 1:8 twist barrel, was significantly WORSE with the 69 CC's, like 1.5 to 2" groups at 50 yards, I didn't even bother at 100, it was just too pathetic. Other loads with that barrel regularly approach 1MOA but I've never found anything that reliably beats it, unfortunately. I blame the FSC556 comp for the less than desired accuracy, but the actual results are still pretty respectable and for what I wanted the comp and the whole rifle setup works perfectly. I just always want more accuracy. Even if I got it to half MOA I'd be muttering about trying for 1/3. 
Basically, short of spending quite a bit of money on a barrel and finding the right ammo for it, anything under 2moa is reasonably good. Sure, many rifles do better, many of us would be unhappy with that, but it's not an unreasonable result. Certain setups are known for having better chances of being particularly accurate than others. DPMS, oddly enough, is known for some pretty accurate rifles using their bull barrel setup. |
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