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Posted: 5/12/2010 8:38:45 AM EDT
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Hello Everyone,
I'd first like to take this opportunity to introduce myself. My name is Greg, and I'm from South Florida. I've long been a handgun (I'm a member over on DefensiveCarry.com) and shotgun shooter but I've never been particularly into rifles. Recently, I've become interested in picking up an AR15 as a fun gun since I've heard you can do a whole ton of stuff to tinker with it and modify it. Seems like a fun, albeit possibly quite expensive, project. So I've read around the internet looking for opinions and advice. I read through juslearnin's article about "which AR15 to buy" and let it digest. Between that and a post from another fellow on an LE forum (jwise, I believe) I think I've settled on spending the money on quality and reputation, which has led me to the Colt AR15 A2. I read up on it a bit and it seems like a good choice, so I started reading up on optics and found the optics post here by Zak-Smith. It seems like for my purposes a red dot scope would be the place to start. I've seen these scopes in gun shops before, and am familiar with how they mount. I'm looking at the mounts, then at the carry handle... and don't see how it would be ready to accept optics. So after all this I get to my question... How would I go about making the A2 "optics ready"? Is it a simple process, or is it costly/time consuming? Would I be better off considering a different model that is "optics ready" already? For all I know the A2 will be ready to mount a red dot scope after simply removing the carry handle, so I decided to pop in here and ask. Thanks in advance for any comments or suggestions you may have. |
| Welcome. I'm a newbie to AR/M rifles, as well––but not firearms ,having been a handgunner for more years than I care to remember. The simple answer is take off the A-3 handle and mount to the Weaver-M1913 rail on a flat top. I bought a DS M-4 with a flat top, bought the handle with rear sights integral, and will get a red dot down the road. could also mount my SIGLite flash/laser that I use for handguns, for that matter. I like the flat top style precisely because it gives you the most options. And I like the iron sights because that's what I fired before going to SEA. Good luck with your Colt once you get it, and you'll get great info here from the "old"timers to the AR-15 series. |
| A2s do not have detachable rear sights and aren't very optic friendly. Your only options for optics are to use a carry handle optic rail (either straight on top or "gooseneck" out over the handguards), use an ACOG which fits in the carry handle, or replace the upper with an A3 |
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A2s do not have detachable rear sights and aren't very optic friendly. Your only options for optics are to use a carry handle optic rail (either straight on top or "gooseneck" out over the handguards), use an ACOG which fits in the carry handle, or replace the upper with an A3 Do I understand correctly that the A3 model does have detachable rear sights, making it more optic-friendly? EDIT: Guess that was a bit of a stupid question before actually checking Colt's website, where I see that it does. Perhaps that makes the A3 a better choice than the A2 for me. |
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A2s do not have detachable rear sights and aren't very optic friendly. Your only options for optics are to use a carry handle optic rail (either straight on top or "gooseneck" out over the handguards), use an ACOG which fits in the carry handle, or replace the upper with an A3 Do I understand correctly that the A3 model does have detachable rear sights, making it more optic-friendly? EDIT: Guess that was a bit of a stupid question before actually checking Colt's website, where I see that it does. Perhaps that makes the A3 a better choice than the A2 for me. Yes an A3 reciever would definitely be the better choice for optics. You can mount any number of optics and back-up sites to the A3 rail. You can even get a detachable carry handle if you so choose. Not much sense in adapting if you have not already purchased a rifle. Get one designed for your desired task. |
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This setup works just fine for a red dot on a carry handle receiver: The mounts are available from Smith Enterprises and A.R.M.S.; the sight is an Aimpoint Micro. Oh ok, $60 for that through Smith Enterprises. So it'd be $60 to throw that on top of the carry handle or $100 (and over a pound of weight, to be fair) to go up to the A3. Is that your gun that you've done that to? I guess my question would be if throwing that red dot on top of the already elevated carry handle would be awkward. |
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From what it sounds like, you want a flat-top receiver, i.e., the top of the upper just has a picatinny rail for mounting optics/BUIS/whatever the heck you want. Flat-top uppers are 1000x better than A2's; mounting an optic so far above the bore can lead to problems trying to get a good zero. A2's are NOT optics friendly, and not very adaptible. Considering that you can get a detachable carry handle and mount it on a flat-top, there's absolutely no reason to get a fixed carry handle (A2) upper.
Having said that, one AR that you may have overlooked is the Spikes Tactical ST-15. It's not currently listed on that long article you read because it's made by a fairly new company. The ST-15 is nearly identical to the Colt 6920 in terms of the components...and it costs 2/3 what the Colt does. Do your research on the Spikes. It would be well worth the money you save that you could spend on a nice optic or something. http://www.spikestactical.com/z/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=113&products_id=387&zenid=fdhgvaub0fbrja3etc69obn120 The ARFCOM discount shaves off 50$, so the rifle is 775$ SHIPPED. That's a screaming good deal for top of the top tier AR. |
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Since you say you want the AR for a 'fun gun' I assume you'll be doing target shooting with it more than anything? If so, you probably won't like the red dot (or any other optic) being up as high up above the bore as it sits on an A2. Your elevation will be off at any other distance than where you zeroed it. Depending on your attitude, you might find that OK and you might find it awful. Doing a mental correction is something bow hunters do all the time. It also makes you assume an odd position to use the sight, since you raise your head up in a higher, awkward position. We usually shoot an AR "nose to charging handle," which isn't very workable with an optical sight on a carry handle. This too can be largely overcome with a cheek weld adapter.
So yes, it sounds like you would like the removable handle better IF you want to be shooting through the traditional iron sights sometimes and a red dot other times. Another choice is to have two separate upper receivers, one flat top with the optic of your choice and the other an A2. It's more $$$, but that's the joy of the modular rifle; mix and match and even switch at the range. It also lets you have two different barrels - maybe one short and lightweight, one heavy and long, and each with different twist rates. Another wild guess, since you mentioned your favorite forum and that you own a few handguns, is that you are thinking of the red dot on an AR as a home defense weapon? You wouldn't be that unhappy with that choice, you can still hit center of mass in your living room by aiming a few inches high. Whatever choice you decide will work best for you, you'll probably buy something different after a while to see how well it works for you. It's called "black rifle disease" - watch out for it, it can be deadly to your checkbook! |
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Since you say you want the AR for a 'fun gun' I assume you'll be doing target shooting with it more than anything? If so, you probably won't like the red dot (or any other optic) being up as high up above the bore as it sits on an A2. Your elevation will be off at any other distance than where you zeroed it. Depending on your attitude, you might find that OK and you might find it awful. Doing a mental correction is something bow hunters do all the time. It also makes you assume an odd position to use the sight, since you raise your head up in a higher, awkward position. We usually shoot an AR "nose to charging handle," which isn't very workable with an optical sight on a carry handle. This too can be largely overcome with a cheek weld adapter. So yes, it sounds like you would like the removable handle better IF you want to be shooting through the traditional iron sights sometimes and a red dot other times. Another choice is to have two separate upper receivers, one flat top with the optic of your choice and the other an A2. It's more $$$, but that's the joy of the modular rifle; mix and match and even switch at the range. It also lets you have two different barrels - maybe one short and lightweight, one heavy and long, and each with different twist rates. Another wild guess, since you mentioned your favorite forum and that you own a few handguns, is that you are thinking of the red dot on an AR as a home defense weapon? You wouldn't be that unhappy with that choice, you can still hit center of mass in your living room by aiming a few inches high. Whatever choice you decide will work best for you, you'll probably buy something different after a while to see how well it works for you. It's called "black rifle disease" - watch out for it, it can be deadly to your checkbook! Yea, it's safe to say it will be a target gun for the most part. I'm not LE, so I don't need a duty weapon - that's for sure. And yes, I would be keeping the AR in my bedroom safe for HD. It sounds like you're confirming what I had suspected, that the mount on top of a carry handle would elevate it enough to be pretty annoying overall. Really sounds like the Government Carbine (listed on Colt's website as the AR15A3, which is why I was calling it that) or the Law Enforcement Carbine (listed as the 6920) would be better thanks to the flat top. Does anyone happen to know if the A3 or 6920 come standard with the carry handle, or do they just come flat top? I'm just having a look at the differences between the A3 of the 6920, trying to figure out what those are. Seems to be quite a few differences in the feature list... just not totally sure what they mean. In my new-ness the only big thing that I notice is the difference in the twist, 1 in 7 on the 6920 instead of 1 in 9 on the A3. Are there any other features I'm missing that give the 6920 an edge? Thanks, Bizzarolibe, for the mention of the other manufacturer. I'll have to give them a look as well. |
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The Colts come with a carry handle. The difference between the 6920 and 6721 are the rifling -1:7 vs 1:9 and the barrel profile - M4 vs HBAR. Between the two I would much rather have the lighter weight 6920 with 1:7 twist. I also am drawn towards the lower weight and the more traditional 1:7 twist. Thanks, CT. |
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You don't want an A2 you want a flat top (usually mistakenly referred to as an A3). Guess Colt is incorrect who would of thunk it. http://www.colt.com/law/ar15a3.asp I'm talking about the generic term that is usually thrown around calling all flat tops A3 uppers. But thanks for providing me a link to Colt's website. I have limited knowledge of their products....... |
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You don't want an A2 you want a flat top (usually mistakenly referred to as an A3). Guess Colt is incorrect who would of thunk it. http://www.colt.com/law/ar15a3.asp Colt should refer to the flattop as "A4" like ArmaLite does. Maybe it's their way to get a dig in at FN for winning the M16A4 contract. 
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So reading around here I see a lot of people rave about Bravo Company AR15 stuff. From what I see... they don't sell completed firearms, though.
So... what all would be involved in putting one of these things together? I'm technically inclined, though I haven't done much mechanical-type stuff. I guess what I'm asking is: would building one from the ground up myself be biting off more than a newbie can chew? Would it end up costing me more or less than just buying a complete Colt? Just thinking out loud here. I'm not afraid of projects and building something myself is certainly something to take pride in... but if it's a semi-expert type thing then I might be out of my league. |
BCM is an excellent choice. And I'm not just saying that because it's my go to gun 
Basically you can buy a complete lower from BCM or LMT. Then buy an upper, bolt carrier and charging handle. Assembling them takes the same skill required to field strip and clean - less actually. I like this option as it's nice and easy and you are getting top quality parts. The other route is buying a stripped lower, a lower parts kit and a stock kit and putting it together yourself. Then get all the upper components and pin it on. Most people like to do this. I am in a minority on this site because I find "building" your own to be highly overrated. If I didn't live in a ban state where I have to use preban lowers to do what I want I would just buy complete rifles or complete lowers and uppers. That's just me though. |
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I enjoy my used M-16A1 and M-16A2 uppers. Not very "tacticool", but fun to shoot. If you plan to use the latest "tacticool" optics go with a A3 or M4 flat top. What are "tacticool" optics? I have an Aimpoint. It increases capability over irons. It increases speed. Easier to use under stress. Easier to make hits on off angles because you don't have to line up front and rear sights. I wouldn't call it "tacticool" I would call it a force multiplier or more capable. |
| I mostly build all my rifles at this point in the game. For your first rifle, I would recommend just getting a complete Colt. I have a 6920 and love it. But if you are into target shooting, I would go with a 20" flat top. Once you become more familiar with the AR platform, then I would recommend building one. They are not hard to build, but you need to just get your hands on a rifle first so get a Colt and be done with it. Welcome to the AR world. |
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I mostly build all my rifles at this point in the game. For your first rifle, I would recommend just getting a complete Colt. I have a 6920 and love it. But if you are into target shooting, I would go with a 20" flat top. Once you become more familiar with the AR platform, then I would recommend building one. They are not hard to build, but you need to just get your hands on a rifle first so get a Colt and be done with it. Welcome to the AR world. Just as an example though, couldn't I go with the Colt 6920 then, after I get familiar and feel like tinkering, order a BCM 20" upper assembly and swap the parts around? Or am I not "getting it" when it comes to shuffling parts? |
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I mostly build all my rifles at this point in the game. For your first rifle, I would recommend just getting a complete Colt. I have a 6920 and love it. But if you are into target shooting, I would go with a 20" flat top. Once you become more familiar with the AR platform, then I would recommend building one. They are not hard to build, but you need to just get your hands on a rifle first so get a Colt and be done with it. Welcome to the AR world. Just as an example though, couldn't I go with the Colt 6920 then, after I get familiar and feel like tinkering, order a BCM 20" upper assembly and swap the parts around? Or am I not "getting it" when it comes to shuffling parts? Sure. I wouildn't swap the Bolt carrier group between the two though. It's not uncommon to have a few complete uppers for a lower. |
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I mostly build all my rifles at this point in the game. For your first rifle, I would recommend just getting a complete Colt. I have a 6920 and love it. But if you are into target shooting, I would go with a 20" flat top. Once you become more familiar with the AR platform, then I would recommend building one. They are not hard to build, but you need to just get your hands on a rifle first so get a Colt and be done with it. Welcome to the AR world. Just as an example though, couldn't I go with the Colt 6920 then, after I get familiar and feel like tinkering, order a BCM 20" upper assembly and swap the parts around? Or am I not "getting it" when it comes to shuffling parts? Sure. I wouildn't swap the Bolt carrier group between the two though. It's not uncommon to have a few complete uppers for a lower. My friend uses 1 lower and about 5 uppers. of course he has the upper with complete BCG |
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Sure. I wouildn't swap the Bolt carrier group between the two though. It's not uncommon to have a few complete uppers for a lower. Oh okay, so theoretically I would just have a BCM upper receiver, bolt carrier group, and charging handle for the 20" barrel and I could fit on the Colt lower and be off and running? LOVING the thought of that. It's one of my favorite things about my Browning Citori with interchangeable 20/28 gauge barrels! |
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Sure. I wouildn't swap the Bolt carrier group between the two though. It's not uncommon to have a few complete uppers for a lower. Oh okay, so theoretically I would just have a BCM upper receiver, bolt carrier group, and charging handle for the 20" barrel and I could fit on the Colt lower and be off and running? LOVING the thought of that. It's one of my favorite things about my Browning Citori with interchangeable 20/28 gauge barrels! yes you can exactly do that |
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Just got back into the AR 15 world myself love colts. Like a dumb dumb I sold a Match Competion HBAR Flat Top/ A3 about 2 Years ago and regret it. I stumbled into a Colt 6940 and put a AIM point on it and it is a hoot. I will say your not going to shot bug holes with the aim point at 100 yards but it is dam accuarte.
http://i377.photobucket.com/albums/oo214/FB67/100_0377.jpg |
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So reading around here I see a lot of people rave about Bravo Company AR15 stuff. From what I see... they don't sell completed firearms, YET So... what all would be involved in putting one of these things together? I'm technically inclined, though I haven't done much mechanical-type stuff. I guess what I'm asking is: would building one from the ground up myself be biting off more than a newbie can chew? Would it end up costing me more or less than just buying a complete Colt? Just thinking out loud here. I'm not afraid of projects and building something myself is certainly something to take pride in... but if it's a semi-expert type thing then I might be out of my league. Fixed it for you |
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You don't want an A2 you want a flat top (usually mistakenly referred to as an A3). Guess Colt is incorrect who would of thunk it. http://www.colt.com/law/ar15a3.asp I'm talking about the generic term that is usually thrown around calling all flat tops A3 uppers. But thanks for providing me a link to Colt's website. I have limited knowledge of their products....... 
Outside of this place just about every I know calls them ARs no matter who made the rifle or M4s if its a carbine. May not be correct, but you know what they are talking about. |
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Sure. I wouildn't swap the Bolt carrier group between the two though. It's not uncommon to have a few complete uppers for a lower. Oh okay, so theoretically I would just have a BCM upper receiver, bolt carrier group, and charging handle for the 20" barrel and I could fit on the Colt lower and be off and running? LOVING the thought of that. It's one of my favorite things about my Browning Citori with interchangeable 20/28 gauge barrels! Lots of people start off that way, them they get lowers to go with spare uppers over time. |
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You don't want an A2 you want a flat top (usually mistakenly referred to as an A3). Guess Colt is incorrect who would of thunk it. http://www.colt.com/law/ar15a3.asp I'm talking about the generic term that is usually thrown around calling all flat tops A3 uppers. But thanks for providing me a link to Colt's website. I have limited knowledge of their products.......
Outside of this place just about every I know calls them ARs no matter who made the rifle or M4s if its a carbine. May not be correct, but you know what they are talking about. colt names the flat top the A3 in anticipation that would be the mil name, instead it was used for the full auto A2, the flat top is the A4. colt also calls a lot of guns a lot of things depending on how they feel that week. colt rollmarked lightweight sporter on my 6830 but its got a HBAR on it. and not LTW at all the A4 is the correct name for a flat op rifle and M4 for a flat top carbine if everyone wants to use military nomenclature. and thats what you are implying. |
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Quoted: Didn't you get the memo? "Tactical" is what I use. "Tacticool" is anything someone else uses that I don't....Quoted: I enjoy my used M-16A1 and M-16A2 uppers. Not very "tacticool", but fun to shoot. If you plan to use the latest "tacticool" optics go with a A3 or M4 flat top. What are "tacticool" optics? I have an Aimpoint. It increases capability over irons. It increases speed. Easier to use under stress. Easier to make hits on off angles because you don't have to line up front and rear sights. I wouldn't call it "tacticool" I would call it a force multiplier or more capable. |
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Wow! I'm surprised none of the Spikes fanboys have chimed in...well here goes...CHIME!
Check out the Spikes. Do some research on the components and you'll find that it's nearly (no Colt fanboys, before you start whipping out the strawmen, I DID NOT SAY "100%"; I said NEARLY) identical to BCM/Colt. BCM IS pure goodness, yes, so good job with considering them. Colt is goodness, but IMO very expensive overpriced goodness for what you're getting. Spikes is a top tierr rifle at a bottom tier price, AND they actually use better buffers than the aforementioned brands. I say buy the Spikes and use the money you save on a high quality optic. Just my .02$...but my .02$ could end up saving you aot of money
Of course, if you want to buy the lower separate from the upper and all that, alot of people like doing the Spikes lower + BCM upper. That would certainly be nice as well. |
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Of course, if you want to buy the lower separate from the upper and all that, alot of people like doing the Spikes lower + BCM upper. That would certainly be nice as well. Hrm... could do the Spikes Tactical Complete Lower w/M4 stock then throw on the BCM BFH 16" Mid Length Upper Receiver Group w/ Daniel Defense Omega X 9" Handguard and the BCM BCG and charging handle. Interesting... about $1220 there... it's almost too many options. |
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Of course, if you want to buy the lower separate from the upper and all that, alot of people like doing the Spikes lower + BCM upper. That would certainly be nice as well. Hrm... could do the Spikes Tactical Complete Lower w/M4 stock then throw on the BCM BFH 16" Mid Length Upper Receiver Group w/ Daniel Defense Omega X 9" Handguard and the BCM BCG and charging handle. Interesting... about $1075 there... it's almost too many options. Dude...you are my new favorite person. You have a dirty, dirty mind. That set-up would be the nastiest nastiness you could possibly buy. GET IT! DO NOT ASK ANY MORE QUESTIONS. |
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Dude...you are my new favorite person. You have a dirty, dirty mind. That set-up would be the nastiest nastiness you could possibly buy. GET IT! DO NOT ASK ANY MORE QUESTIONS. Thanks, I appreciate the compliment. Doesn't seem like there's too much that goes into assembling something like that... and I might as well save myself those taxes that I understand the government tacks onto completed firearms. |
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Okay... so I read this in one of the posts on another website that I mentioned I read. I'm sure that at least some of you might be aware of it.
SAVING MONEY BY BUYING SMART!
But HOW I order it is very important. Pay attention! I will not order one of the complete rifles listed on CMMG's website for $1025. I will order the complete upper setup just the way I want it and have it shipped to my house. I will then (on a different day) order the complete lower and have it shipped to my local gunshop (FFL dealer.) This will save me a LOT of money, as all complete firearms include the Federal Excise Tax, which is 10%. It also saves you from spending money on the carry handle which will promptly be removed and stored in your parts bin, never to see the sunlight again ($100.) It's true, manufacturers usually don't send a user's manual, magazine, or cheap plastic case when you just buy an upper, but the manual can be had for free (call them and ask for one), the magazines are only $10, and I've got a bunch of extra cases if you really want one! Mine stay in the safe at home, and I have soft-sided cases for my rifles as they ride better in the trunk that way. http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81462&highlight=jwise Is there a logical reason why he would order the upper and lowers on seperate days? Is there a legal regulation that would require this? Or is he just doing this for no real reason? Ran into that and just wondered why that would be neccessary... Again, I want to thank everyone for humoring a newbie. |
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No need. If you are ordering a lower and upper separately and they are going to be sent to different addresses you are not ordering a complete rifle. I would disregard that. That's what I was thinking... I really didn't understand the reasoning behind what he said. Guess I can just ignore that part. Anyone else have as much trouble convincing their girlfriends/fiancees/wives to let them spend money on their AR as I am with my fiancee? |
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