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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - DI vs Gas piston (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 12/29/2009 1:34:00 AM EDT
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Hey guys new here. I am 19 and have been shooting for about 10 years, Pistol/Shotgun/ARs/AKs. I have won many competitions, tactical shooting and marksmenship. Just got my FID and i want to get a .223 RRA middy 16 inch, but i heard gas piston was better. The main role for this rifle will be range and tactical shooting and then a service rifle when i join S.W.A.T.
So for me it is either the RRA LAR-15 Mid-Lenght or a AR with a Gas Piston system. So what would you suggest? The old DI system or the new Gas Piston system? And if you know any could you list the names of manufactuers that make a good GP system, and i would like to go with a brand name I.E Bushmaster, Colt, RRA, DPMS, Sabre, S&W etc that makes a Gas Piston AR. Thank you. MT |
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The DI guns are proven reliable and parts are readily available. I don't know much about piston guns but I would think that all the different makers use their own piston parts and thus won't interchange between brands.
However with just about everything in life there comes a time when a person needs to embrace something a little different and someone has to be one of the first ones to use it. I would love to get a piston gun from LMT on their MRP lineup. Also alot of the piston guns have been available for qutie some time now and are proven pretty reliable. |
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The DI guns are proven reliable and parts are readily available. I don't know much about piston guns but I would think that all the different makers use their own piston parts and thus won't interchange between brands. However with just about everything in life there comes a time when a person needs to embrace something a little different and someone has to be one of the first ones to use it. I would love to get a piston gun from LMT on their MRP lineup. Also a lot of the piston guns have been available for quite some time now and are proven pretty reliable. + 1. Arguing against piston operating systems in AR-15 rifles, is a bit like arguing against fuel injection systems in automobiles because carburetors are "well proven". Piston systems run cooler, cleaner, longer. Most who knock them don't own them. I have 2 LWRC piston rifles and they run very well. I also have a total of 7 D.I. weapons, and 1 blow back. 5 Bushmasters, 2 Colts, and a Rock River Arms LAR-9, 9 MM Carbine. Gas piston AR-15 rifles aren't coming, they're here, and here to stay. Most every maker of AR-15's has, or soon will have a piston gun on the market. The reason is because it is a large market that is getting larger every single day, as more and more people have learned to digest the idea that something that is different may actually be better. For companies like Sig Sauer, Ruger, POF, LWRC, and a few others I'm forgetting, piston AR-15's are all they offer, and with good reason. People want them. If you really get "bitten" by the AR-15 bug, chances are you will wind up owning both. If that happens you will most likely find yourself shooting your piston weapon more, simply because you'll spend less time cleaning it. A lot less! If it's your first AR-15 buy whatever "lights your fire" the most, along with what you can afford. You'll have fun either way! Bill T. |
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I would suggest reading all of the "What parts break in a carbine course" thread before buying. If you plan to use this as a service rifle at some point I'd pay attention to the advice given by Pat Rogers in that thread.
With that said, I'd buy a top tier non-piston AR. I currenty only own an RRA which I use at the range and tactical rifle matches. After having my improperly staked gas key come loose I wouldn't stake my life on that rifle. It's great for the range though. That's just my $.02 |
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The DI guns are proven reliable and parts are readily available. I don't know much about piston guns but I would think that all the different makers use their own piston parts and thus won't interchange between brands. However with just about everything in life there comes a time when a person needs to embrace something a little different and someone has to be one of the first ones to use it. I would love to get a piston gun from LMT on their MRP lineup. Also a lot of the piston guns have been available for quite some time now and are proven pretty reliable. + 1. Arguing against piston operating systems in AR-15 rifles, is a bit like arguing against fuel injection systems in automobiles because carburetors are "well proven". Piston systems run cooler, cleaner, longer. Most who knock them don't own them. I have 2 LWRC piston rifles and they run very well. I also have a total of 7 D.I. weapons, and 1 blow back. 5 Bushmasters, 2 Colts, and a Rock River Arms LAR-9, 9 MM Carbine. Gas piston AR-15 rifles aren't coming, they're here, and here to stay. Most every maker of AR-15's has, or soon will have a piston gun on the market. The reason is because it is a large market that is getting larger every single day, as more and more people have learned to digest the idea that something that is different may actually be better. For companies like Sig Sauer, Ruger, POF, LWRC, and a few others I'm forgetting, piston AR-15's are all they offer, and with good reason. People want them. If you really get "bitten" by the AR-15 bug, chances are you will wind up owning both. If that happens you will most likely find yourself shooting your piston weapon more, simply because you'll spend less time cleaning it. A lot less! If it's your first AR-15 buy whatever "lights your fire" the most, along with what you can afford. You'll have fun either way! Bill T. kind of how I feel. I own quite a few DI's and for some reason, I've been shooting my pistons a hell of alot more lately. |
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The DI guns are proven reliable and parts are readily available. I don't know much about piston guns but I would think that all the different makers use their own piston parts and thus won't interchange between brands. However with just about everything in life there comes a time when a person needs to embrace something a little different and someone has to be one of the first ones to use it. I would love to get a piston gun from LMT on their MRP lineup. Also a lot of the piston guns have been available for quite some time now and are proven pretty reliable. + 1. Arguing against piston operating systems in AR-15 rifles, is a bit like arguing against fuel injection systems in automobiles because carburetors are "well proven". Piston systems run cooler, cleaner, longer. Most who knock them don't own them. I have 2 LWRC piston rifles and they run very well. I also have a total of 7 D.I. weapons, and 1 blow back. 5 Bushmasters, 2 Colts, and a Rock River Arms LAR-9, 9 MM Carbine. Not true, most dont argue that pistons arent great, they are and have been proven in battle for decades. Its a piston thrown into a system that wasn't designed to accommodate one is the argument. AK47/74, G36.. great piston guns, cause they were designed from the ground up as a piston gun. |
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DI have been battle proven to fail for decades, why would you want to improve on that?
I love a gun that jams when I really need it to DI is the best buy only colt nothing old can ever be improved on DI is a black and white TV in a LED TV age, so why would you want that big screen tv when gunsmoke is in black and white? |
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DI have been battle proven to fail for decades, why would you want to improve on that? I love a gun that jams when I really need it to DI is the best buy only colt nothing old can ever be improved on DI is a black and white TV in a LED TV age, so why would you want that big screen tv when gunsmoke is in black and white? Pistons are not a technological advance... they existed when Stoner designed the AR. Converting an AR into a piston gun is like converting a small block Chevy to diesel. Sure, it might work for a while, but nowhere near as reliably as an engine designed from the ground-up as a diesel. AR's have served the US well for over 40 years. If they were jam-o-matics like you claim, they would have been replaced with a different weapon. |
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DI have been battle proven to fail for decades, why would you want to improve on that? I love a gun that jams when I really need it to DI is the best buy only colt nothing old can ever be improved on DI is a black and white TV in a LED TV age, so why would you want that big screen tv when gunsmoke is in black and white? Well said! It's not like the D.I. platform has been flawless. Articles abound where this system has failed, from day one I might add. All the piston system has become is yet another improvement. The staunch D.I. supporters always come back with reasoning to try and relate the rifles many problems to operator error. "Poor maintenance", "not enough lube", "too much lube", "not the right kind of lube", etc. If it were that simple to fix, it would have been fixed, and there wouldn't be a need for piston guns. They would have failed in the marketplace and be gone. Every day the piston AR-15 / M-16 platform grows larger. With more people buying more weapons. That alone should tell you something. I'm just not understanding this "loyalty" to a system that has proven over 4 decades to be problematic. If an individual won't accept the many problems associated with the D.I. system, they're certainly not going to accept any solutions. Be they piston operating systems, or otherwise. Bill T. |
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Hey guys new here. I am 19 and have been shooting for about 10 years, Pistol/Shotgun/ARs/AKs. I have won many competitions, tactical shooting and marksmenship. Just got my FID and i want to get a .223 RRA middy 16 inch, but i heard gas piston was better. The main role for this rifle will be range and tactical shooting and then a service rifle when i join S.W.A.T. So for me it is either the RRA LAR-15 Mid-Lenght or a AR with a Gas Piston system. So what would you suggest? The old DI system or the new Gas Piston system? And if you know any could you list the names of manufactuers that make a good GP system, and i would like to go with a brand name I.E Bushmaster, Colt, RRA, DPMS, Sabre, S&W etc that makes a Gas Piston AR. Thank you. MT So you're saying that when you get on the police force and make it to the SWAT team, you have to furnish your own rifle rather than using their machine gun? That doesn't sound likely to me. I would only buy a very cheap/used AR-15 at this time, and prices are starting to plummet. This is because the AR world is in turmoil because of recent developments like the Para modified DI system that does not require a buffer or buffer tube, hence can employ a folding stock. This feature alone stands to make all ARs requiring buffer tubes obselete. Sig has rolled out the 516 which is a buffer-tube gun but a very good one, employing a gas-piston system. You have the Ruger gas-piston rifle to consider along with all the conversions now coming out or already on the market. I got a 'CDNN' sale catalog the other day with a S&W M&P for $799 - a complete rifle, not just the upper. That's about the max I would spend on one right now until the dust settles. The 'M&P' is a decent conventional DI (buffer tube) carbine that would serve anybody well. |
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Some people out there dont just "slap a piston on" an ar15 designed for DI. Some companies do extensive testing with various designs and materials to ensure long life and trouble-free operation. Just because the AR was not designed from the ground up as a piston doesnt mean it cant work well with it. Just because something wasn't designed from the gorund up to work with X doesn't mean it by it's very nature will NOT work with X. According to that philosophy the concept of "upgrades" would be detrimental to everything since it is upgrading on something that was not designed originally with that intent. Now of course there will be some guys who will pick apart every detail of what I said and use some particular circumstance and details to derail my claim but I don't care. With passionate people like these, who needs liberals?
I don't claim DI or piston is the ultimate winner.I own both and love both. Both have their advantages and there is no clear right answer so i won't try to partake in this dick measuring trend of opposing trends. "DI's are proven why would you change it?" (Some may argue it has had all that time to be proven because our gov is too lazy/cheap to get improvements but thats for another thread) "My DI never gave me problems" (Great for you, some have though) "Pistons never jam, DI ducks" (From my experience, everything jams, even AK's, what you are interested in is the frequency of jams) the list goes on and on and we have all heard it infinity+1 times... Jeez give it a rest already. |
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Not true, most dont argue that pistons arent great, they are and have been proven in battle for decades. Its a piston thrown into a system that wasn't designed to accommodate one is the argument. AK47/74, G36.. great piston guns, cause they were designed from the ground up as a piston gun. There are many piston AR-15's that have been designed as piston guns, and not retrofitted. LWRC, Ruger, POF (Bushmaster), and the new LMT system to name a few. It's not that much of a change over from a design standpoint. You are going away from a system that "craps where it eats", to a cleaner one. What I want to know is what all the Colt D.I. worshippers are going to say when Colt comes out with one? You know it's coming, not if but when. Bill T. |
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Quoted: Piston ARs, if you want to use the car analogy, are like a Tesla. Made by a small company that may or may not be around in ten years (50%+ of small businesses fail). You can argue that a Tesla is better than a Camry in a lot of ways, but it's still a hobbyiest/enthusiast car and most people are better off with a Camry that works every time and you can get parts anywhere.+ 1. Arguing against piston operating systems in AR-15 rifles, is a bit like arguing against fuel injection systems in automobiles because carburetors are "well proven". Piston systems run cooler, cleaner, longer. Most who knock them don't own them. I have 2 LWRC piston rifles and they run very well. I also have a total of 7 D.I. weapons, and 1 blow back. 5 Bushmasters, 2 Colts, and a Rock River Arms LAR-9, 9 MM Carbine. Gas piston AR-15 rifles aren't coming, they're here, and here to stay. Most every maker of AR-15's has, or soon will have a piston gun on the market. The reason is because it is a large market that is getting larger every single day, as more and more people have learned to digest the idea that something that is different may actually be better. For companies like Sig Sauer, Ruger, POF, LWRC, and a few others I'm forgetting, piston AR-15's are all they offer, and with good reason. People want them. If you really get "bitten" by the AR-15 bug, chances are you will wind up owning both. If that happens you will most likely find yourself shooting your piston weapon more, simply because you'll spend less time cleaning it. A lot less! If it's your first AR-15 buy whatever "lights your fire" the most, along with what you can afford. You'll have fun either way! Bill T. |
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Not true, most dont argue that pistons arent great, they are and have been proven in battle for decades. Its a piston thrown into a system that wasn't designed to accommodate one is the argument. AK47/74, G36.. great piston guns, cause they were designed from the ground up as a piston gun. There are many piston AR-15's that have been designed as piston guns, and not retrofitted. LWRC, Ruger, POF (Bushmaster), and the new LMT system to name a few. It's not that much of a change over from a design standpoint. You are going away from a system that "craps where it eats", to a cleaner one. What I want to know is what all the Colt D.I. worshippers are going to say when Colt comes out with one? You know it's coming, not if but when. Bill T. They all still use the same lower receiver, which means they are using the same buffer tube, and same type of BCG. There are no rails to guide the BCG and counter the off axis hit of the piston. They add pads which helps, but the off axis wear is still prevalent to both the top of the locking lugs and the bottom off the receiver extension (buffer tube). Just look and the amount of buffer tube wear in the Rugers which were “uppers designed for a piston” same problems exist. |
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Quoted: I am 19 and have been shooting for about 10 years, Pistol/Shotgun/ARs/AKs. I have won many competitions, tactical shooting and marksmenship. Just got my FID and i want to get a .223 RRA middy 16 inch, but i heard gas piston was better. The main role for this rifle will be range and tactical shooting and then a service rifle when i join S.W.A.T.  |
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Piston ARs, if you want to use the car analogy, are like a Tesla. Made by a small company that may or may not be around in ten years (50%+ of small businesses fail). You can argue that a Tesla is better than a Camry in a lot of ways, but it's still a hobbyiest/enthusiast car and most people are better off with a Camry that works every time and you can get parts anywhere.
We're not talking "cottage industries" here. For example, LWRC is headquartered in Cambridge, Maryland. They utilize three facilities totaling over 250,000 square feet. Their manufacturing capability includes over fifty CNC machine centers, laser cutting machines, screw machines, robotic welding, and mil-spec painting. LWRC is registered with Lloyd's Quality Registrar for ISO-9001 and AS9100 International Standards compliance for Configuration Management. Ruger has been around since the 40's. Sig Sauer, in spite of their very successful Sig 556 model sees enough of a market to begin producing their own piston AR-15, the Sig 516. The Glendale, Arizona Cabela's already had 2 on the rack as of yesterday. Even the smaller piston AR-15 outfits like POF are booming success stories, with many of their models back ordered with long wait times, in spite of running shifts around the clock to try and keep up with demand. These companies aren't going anywhere, anytime soon. Bill T. |
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They all still use the same lower receiver, which means they are using the same buffer tube, and same type of BCG. There are no rails to guide the BCG and counter the off axis hit of the piston. They add pads which helps, but the off axis wear is still prevalent to both the top of the locking lugs and the bottom off the receiver extension (buffer tube). Just look and the amount of buffer tube wear in the Rugers which were “uppers designed for a piston” same problems exist. Quite true, add to the list on my M6A2 the bolt cam pin gouges the upper receiver. |
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DI have been battle proven to fail for decades, why would you want to improve on that? I love a gun that jams when I really need it to DI is the best buy only colt nothing old can ever be improved on DI is a black and white TV in a LED TV age, so why would you want that big screen tv when gunsmoke is in black and white? Well said! It's not like the D.I. platform has been flawless. Articles abound where this system has failed, from day one I might add. All the piston system has become is yet another improvement. The staunch D.I. supporters always come back with reasoning to try and relate the rifles many problems to operator error. "Poor maintenance", "not enough lube", "too much lube", "not the right kind of lube", etc. If it were that simple to fix, it would have been fixed, and there wouldn't be a need for piston guns. They would have failed in the marketplace and be gone. Every day the piston AR-15 / M-16 platform grows larger. With more people buying more weapons. That alone should tell you something. I'm just not understanding this "loyalty" to a system that has proven over 4 decades to be problematic. If an individual won't accept the many problems associated with the D.I. system, they're certainly not going to accept any solutions. Be they piston operating systems, or otherwise. Bill T. The DI system works just fine. If the AR platform has a problem, it's the magazines. USGI STANAG mags were designed to be cheap, light, and disposable. However, the military insists on keeping used mags in inventory well past their useful service life. |
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find a FNC which is an old proven piston system that also happens to make the lowest costing full auto as their sears have not gotten crazy in price Yup you can get into one of these for about 2/3 the price of other F/A rifles, but that doesn't change the fact that they are a piston design from the ground up not an afterthought bolted onto a different system. |
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The AR was designed around a DI system to improve accuracy and reduce recoil. Retrofitting a proprietary gas piston into the design adds possible points of failure and negates the AR's inherent advantages over competing rifle designs. SO you say, but I'd argue that you'd have to go from "possible" to showing an actual problem. Piston AR's have been around a while. Some are better than others, naturally. But the best ones have not shown a consistent pattern of failures. And what problem that HAVE cropped up have been due to the immaturity of gas system, not the problem of retrofitting an op-rod system into a DI gun. A lot of folks will yell about "carrier tilt," but 1) the best designs minimize such wear and 2) no one has pointed out to me failures occurring sue to this "problem." |
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There are many piston AR-15's that have been designed as piston guns, and not retrofitted. LWRC, Ruger, POF (Bushmaster), and the new LMT system to name a few. It's not that much of a change over from a design standpoint. You are going away from a system that "craps where it eats", to a cleaner one. What I want to know is what all the Colt D.I. worshippers are going to say when Colt comes out with one? You know it's coming, not if but when. Bill T. [/quote] welcome to about 4 years ago, Colt has many piston designs the APC and the LE1020 come to mind. they dont sale them because not enough militaries want a piston |
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the only real problem with DI guns seem to be
1.using guns wel past their service life, then failing. this then being claimed as a shitty design by people told by army times and HK piston is better 2, using rifles as mini SAW. and expecting them to perform like heavy machine guns when they are not meant to be. no assault rifel is. 3. and a lot of people that never use a DI enough to trust it. 100 rounds a month is not a test 4. believe anything that came out last week is better, just because the company said so and the guy in the magazine add is wearing multicam |
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I would possibly recommend a piston for military use.
For LE/SWAT, no need. You won't be in sandy, dirty environments. I DI will do just fine. Plus for competition, they have less recoil. While RRA is a good company, if I was using mine for service, I would get a top tier gun like BCM or LMT. Your life is worth the extra $2-300. |
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I've got a LMT 14.5" DI carbine. Alot of folks around here seem to believe that a spare BCG is a good idea. A backup in case one bites the dust. Better yet maybe a complete upper to throw on your lower.
With my LMT lower maybe if I had the coin, which I don't right now, I could have the LMT MRP with piston as my backup. Especially since the MRP is quite attractive to me. LMT has been around since 1980 if I recall right. Hopefully they will be here for alot longer. There was also a time when someone could have said Colt has only been operating a few short years, maybe we better not get one. Or how about the 1911 pistol, better not get one it's not proven yet. The M16 was unproven weapon at one time also. Lots of trouble during the Vietnam War from what I have read. Just think if everyone said they were junk and forgot the platform? ARs will come and go. Some will evolve into a better and more reliable weapon whether it be DI or piston. |
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the only real problem with DI guns seem to be 1.using guns wel past their service life, then failing. this then being claimed as a shitty design by people told by army times and HK piston is better 2, using rifles as mini SAW. and expecting them to perform like heavy machine guns when they are not meant to be. no assault rifel is. 3. and a lot of people that never use a DI enough to trust it. 100 rounds a month is not a test 4. believe anything that came out last week is better, just because the company said so and the guy in the magazine add is wearing multicam Once again, (and this is an old story), making the method of use the problem, and not the rifle. A bit like the woman who can't stop cheating on her husband since she survived a plane crash. Excuses, nothing more. 1.) D.I. systems have problems, and have had for decades. 2.) A lot of guys are in Arlington who don't deserve to be there because of it. 3.) We've been unsuccessful at working around this for over 4 decades. 4.) The piston system, while not perfect, represents the best design to come along yet to offer a better solution. 5.) If most people disagreed with that, these companies would be broke by now. They're not. They're selling rifles faster than they can manufacture them. All of this taking place in a economy every bit as horseshit as the design we're trying to get rid of. Bill T. |
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I don't post a lot, but this one got my attention...
Look kid, it's good to have goals and aspirations, and I applaud what you are "assuming" you will be doin in life, but you are not going to get a lot of help on this. One, because a search would have yielded the info you seek, and two, you obviously don't know too much about LE. Most departments, if you make SWAT, are going to issue you a nice little rifle with a "special" selector switch, and if you say "no thanks, I'll just carry my RRA or piston gun...well, just let us know how that goes. You've got academy, employment, probation and a whole lot more before you should be talking about SWAT. Good luck though, honestly. |
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I don't post a lot, but this one got my attention... Look kid, it's good to have goals and aspirations, and I applaud what you are "assuming" you will be doin in life, but you are not going to get a lot of help on this. One, because a search would have yielded the info you seek, and two, you obviously don't know too much about LE. Most departments, if you make SWAT, are going to issue you a nice little rifle with a "special" selector switch, and if you say "no thanks, I'll just carry my RRA or piston gun...well, just let us know how that goes. You've got academy, employment, probation and a whole lot more before you should be talking about SWAT. Good luck though, honestly. Yep. Just get a DI and buy ammo with the money you save over a piston gun. |
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Quoted: Good adviceI don't post a lot, but this one got my attention... Look kid, it's good to have goals and aspirations, and I applaud what you are "assuming" you will be doin in life, but you are not going to get a lot of help on this. One, because a search would have yielded the info you seek, and two, you obviously don't know too much about LE. Most departments, if you make SWAT, are going to issue you a nice little rifle with a "special" selector switch, and if you say "no thanks, I'll just carry my RRA or piston gun...well, just let us know how that goes. You've got academy, employment, probation and a whole lot more before you should be talking about SWAT. Good luck though, honestly. |
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Piston ARs, if you want to use the car analogy, are like a Tesla. Made by a small company that may or may not be around in ten years (50%+ of small businesses fail). You can argue that a Tesla is better than a Camry in a lot of ways, but it's still a hobbyiest/enthusiast car and most people are better off with a Camry that works every time and you can get parts anywhere.
Ruger has been around since the 40's. Sig Sauer, in spite of their very successful Sig 556 model sees enough of a market to begin producing their own piston AR-15, the Sig 516. The Glendale, Arizona Cabela's already had 2 on the rack as of yesterday. Even the smaller piston AR-15 outfits like POF are booming success stories, with many of their models back ordered with long wait times, in spite of running shifts around the clock to try and keep up with demand. These companies aren't going anywhere, anytime soon. Bill T. I don't post much but I do frequent "some" sites often and read and study. I am no "special forces" guy but I am a Trooper on a State Police agency and use a rifle as part of my duties. I have been shooting for many years and have owned and shot various DI AR's. I have NEVER had a problem with any of my rifles out of the box. However I have known many people that have had problems with their piston guns. Just recently the county I am assigned to purchased LMT pistons uppers for their Colt M-16 lowers for the county Sheriff's Dept. SWAT team. I asked one of the guys during training how the rifles have performed. He said fine now but many of them had to be sent back to LMT, some more than once to "run right". Now they bought probably 7-8 uppers and over half had to be sent back. My 6920 and my Colt AR-15 A2 and the previous uppers that the SWAT team had worked right out of the box every time. They got the new uppers because like most people who bought them they believed that they were this great new wonder weapon. Bill T, I am reading your post and see that you mentioned POF and Sig as examples of great piston guns. I remember reading several articles and posts about POF guns not holding up during serious use. In fact Pat Rogers commented on POF during one of his training sessions. He said one POF gun shot the piston right out of the front of the hand guard and he stated that he would not trust his life to one. Now I know this has been 2-3 years ago so maybe they have their issues ironed out. But for serious use I would not recommed POF. And the Sig has had numerous problems for some time now. I have never owned the 556 but the civilian version of the 556 has been less than stellar. Even the holy grail of pistons, the H&K 416 has had problems most notably with the armed forces of Norway. It takes me about 15-20 minutes to clean my AR-15 and if I am really getting it clean about 30 minutes sometiems a little longer. People don't realize that you don't need to get the AR inspection clean for service use. I'm not saying that I will never get a piston AR but right now the price on those is just too much for what you get and I don't know why pistons cost so much more. |
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get a DI. I dont see what a piston AR has over any other gun. For the price of a piston ar, ($1500 at the cheapest?) you can get a DI system that is just as reliable, lighter, and more accurate. People comparing reliability compare $600 DI systems to $2k Pistons. Personally if i want an ar, i want a light, accurate rifle. If i want a high volume shooter, ill get an ak. cheap, reliable, accurate enough, and can be converted into near-ar ergonomics with a folding/extendable stock and rail. Do yourself a favor, if you want a piston, get an ak and spend the 1k left over money on ammo and a couple necessary accessories.
Personally, i prefer the DI(which is technically a piston btw) Its the lightest, most accurate system. Mines been 100% reliable as are most peoples'. For LEO i dont think you'll ever have to worry about reliability since you dont have talc around. read around and learn. Ultimately its your choice. Either are gonna be ok really. |
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I'm not saying that I will never get a piston AR but right now the price on those is just too much for what you get and I don't know why pistons cost so much more. You have several D.I. guns that cost as much or more than several piston models. Devotees of the D.I. platform will always be the last to leave a sinking ship. It has less to do with, "I'm from Missouri", and more to do with, "I'm blindly stubborn". Lives have "been staked" on piston guns, and those people are still here, just as those who staked them on D.I. models are no longer with us. The pendulum swings both ways. Bill T. |
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Bill T, I am reading your post and see that you mentioned POF and Sig as examples of great piston guns. Don't misquote me. I never said any piston gun was "great". What I said was piston guns are being produced by very successful companies, and being purchased by very satisfied customers. These rifles aren't coming from back alley, bush league operations. LWRC International has been immensely successful in a very short period of time because they produce a good, quality weapon. The same with Sig Sauer. With all due respect, Pat Rogers doesn't run a successful firearms company. What "he likes", and what sells appear to be two entirely different things. The firearms manufacturing business is dog eat dog to say the least. There have been far more bankruptcies than success stories. Can you name me one piston AR-15 manufacturer that has gone broke? I can't. You don't become a successful firearms manufacturer by making bad product. Bill T. |
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ruger and sig, great marketing plans !! well they need them to convince people to buy their piston products over the" great ar weapons platform thats more popular than ever" hmmn.... why is it so great then and why is it so popular?
yup, on the cover of the mags !! ofcourse when writing the stories they try and claim they have improved the system, they call great. yet anyone thats has studied the ar platform knows damn well there is nothing at all wrong with DI system or the ar weapons platform. |
| Well I think that black soot in the bolt area is a problem that is easily corrected by a piston. Every other proven weapon system is also a piston operated system. Perhaps uncle sam made me clean it too often and I'm sick of it. There is also a reason that every improved system replacement is piston operated. Given the opposite, and DI system would be laughed at. |
| I for one do see a piston gun in the US militaries future. Having said this so far, none tested have passed for various reasons. They will improve. Keep in mind that the Daewoo has served Korea very well in a horrible climate for almost 2 decades now. The FNC may have been the best assault rifle ever designed. |
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Time Magazine, 1941: Report on the Garand
Those who like to spout bullshit might want to read this. |
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but i heard gas piston was better. MT There is nothing wrong with the current design. All the piston does is add weight. So the FSP won't get hot...Never been holding on to it as I shoot it, so it's a non issue. Keep them clean and they run and run. What makes the M16/AR15 great is the light weight / firepower role. |
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the only real problem with DI guns seem to be 1.using guns wel past their service life, then failing. this then being claimed as a shitty design by people told by army times and HK piston is better 2, using rifles as mini SAW. and expecting them to perform like heavy machine guns when they are not meant to be. no assault rifel is. 3. and a lot of people that never use a DI enough to trust it. 100 rounds a month is not a test 4. believe anything that came out last week is better, just because the company said so and the guy in the magazine add is wearing multicam Once again, (and this is an old story), making the method of use the problem, and not the rifle. A bit like the woman who can't stop cheating on her husband since she survived a plane crash. Excuses, nothing more. 1.) D.I. systems have problems, and have had for decades. You mean when rifle were issued without leaning kits and without chromelined bores and chambers? Or how mags and rifles way past their service life were used? Or maybe you're talking about now, when servicemembers are taught to put a light coat of lube on their rifles when everyone who can pay attention knows that's wrong. 2.) A lot of guys are in Arlington who don't deserve to be there because of it. See Above. Any systems sucks if you don't know how to use it. By your reasoning if I ran a car without oil or a radiator it would be a shitty car for failing. 3.) We've been unsuccessful at working around this for over 4 decades. That might be true for people who are issued rifles and given false instructions who don't know any better, but the info is abundantly and readily available for anyone who wants to have a DI rifle that can be run hard for a long time with little maintenance. 4.) The piston system, while not perfect, represents the best design to come along yet to offer a better solution. I wonder if people said this in the 60's when there was a piston AR that wasn't produced for long? 5.) If most people disagreed with that, these companies would be broke by now. They're not. They're selling rifles faster than they can manufacture them. All of this taking place in a economy every bit as horseshit as the design we're trying to get rid of. Bill T. Every black rifle is selling out at an insane pace. You calling a DI AR "horseshit" was almost enough for me to put you on my ignore list, but such stupidity needs to be pointed out at every turn. It's funny how of all Pat Roger's T&E guns, teh longest lasting one used a "horseshit" design Responses to the  in bold.
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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - DI vs Gas piston (Page 1 of 3)
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