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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - New Proposed Rule-please read (Page 1 of 5)
Posted: 7/23/2009 3:51:53 PM EDT
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I have been pretty much the only person in favor of allowing people to post about problems with rifles instead of trashing them and making the person "contact the manufacturer first" This idea is very popular with industry people and has been instituted on another forum owned by several dealers. My main beefs with it are 1-it's only enforced against popular manufacturers, you can beat on Oly all day long, but post a picture of a noveske upper with a bad finish and it will be whisked away to trash. Since I'm not a dealer trying to protect the stuff I sell the rule applies to everyone, Colt, Oly, Model One, Vulcan chinese red dot knock off makers. I cannot see a rule that only applies to the popular manufacturers, that is obviously not fair. 2-you guys are the ones who are hurt. Most people will never post about the problem once it is solved, why should they? there might be a bunch of bad parts from a manufacturer but if there problem is taken care of they have no movtivation to post and you guys will never know. Of course I still will  I am not in favor of this but I am tired of arguing about it. If I am the only one who cares then why should I knock myself out? Enforcing it would make my life easier, that's for sure. |
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I absolutely believe that people should be able to post about problems with a product. All this politically correct BS of jumping on the person who posts about a complaint wreaks of the very same problems that people here complain about the current presidential administration and the MSM.
We benefit from hearing about problems with a product. I also think that the person making the complaint should post the efforts made by the offending company to rectify the problem. Any company can occasionally have a lemon slip through the QC process. How the company handles the problem tells me more about the company, than any occassional lemon that they may put out. Now, this is a privately owned site, so the owner can set whatever policy he likes. However, silencing some who complain about a product lends to a lack of credibility for the site. Perhaps there could be a separate "Product Complaint" forum, sort of like a Better Business Bureau for AR-15s and related products to keep some of the discussions out of the technical threads. |
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If you got a problem, post it. It may be something the manufacturer needs to check out, or an isolated incident. I would rather know if anyone else is having a problem so I will know if I need to check my rifle.
I also believe this can be done in a civilized manner without trashing any one brand or manufacturer. |
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As soon as you try to stick a sock in the mouth of anybody who posts negative remarks about a product, you become a shill for the vendor, and your credibility as a DISCUSSION FORUM is kaput.
If a criticism is NOT founded, the members of the forum will shred the O.P. without the board administrator getting wound up in it. If the criticism IS founded, the manufacturer should sleep in the bed he made. You need to decide whether this is a discussion forum, or just some sort of electronic advertising medium. |
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We’ve discussed this over IM, I’ll let folks know here how I feel, especially those who care to openly insult me for my decisions and go without retribution.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Regardless of manufacturer, posting your personal dissatisfaction with a product in the AR Tech Forums does not do a thing for anyone. It only brings arguments. Personally, I feel you should keep your complaints private and deal with the problem one on one through email or telephone. Resolve the issue one on one. Give the issue time to be resolved. If you do not get anywhere with the individual or company that sold you the product you are unhappy with, THEN bring the matter into public. |
| I say let the threads ride as long as they stay in the CoC. First off, I would never post about a problem without giving a dealer a chance to make it right. Second I would like to see those that would jump the gun, so as not to ever deal with them in the EE. Third, dont really have a third. Carry on. |
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Quoted:
I have been pretty much the only person in favor of allowing people to post about problems with rifles instead of trashing them and making the person "contact the manufacturer first" This idea is very popular with industry people and has been instituted on another forum owned by several dealers. My main beefs with it are 1-it's only enforced against popular manufacturers, you can beat on Oly all day long, but post a picture of a noveske upper with a bad finish and it will be whisked away to trash. Since I'm not a dealer trying to protect the stuff I sell the rule applies to everyone, Colt, Oly, Model One, Vulcan chinese red dot knock off makers. I cannot see a rule that only applies to the popular manufacturers, that is obviously not fair. 2-you guys are the ones who are hurt. Most people will never post about the problem once it is solved, why should they? there might be a bunch of bad parts from a manufacturer but if there problem is taken care of they have no movtivation to post and you guys will never know. Of course I still will
I am not in favor of this but I am tired of arguing about it. If I am the only one who cares then why should I knock myself out? Enforcing it would make my life easier, that's for sure. Agreed. It doesn't seem right that popular manufacturers are untouchable but Oly is fair game. Should be all equal. |
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Quoted:
As soon as you try to stick a sock in the mouth of anybody who posts negative remarks about a product, you become a shill for the vendor and your credibility as a DISCUSSION FORUM is kaput. If a criticism is NOT founded, the members of the forum will shred the O.P. without the board administrator getting wound up in it. If the criticism IS founded, the manufacturer should sleep in the bed he made. You need to decide whether this is a discussion forum, or just some sort of electronic advertising medium. I don't believe I could say it any better than this. Open discussion is the best medium for fixing problems. |
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I see it both your way, Aimless, and QUIB's way.
I would prefer a solution somewhere in the middle, but seeing how civility is sadly absent in online forums, I'd prefer Aimless' way. Perhaps agressive enforcement of "trashing" as opposed to informing, as well as a zero-tolerance policy on personal attacks directed towards the OP? |
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Quoted:
We’ve discussed this over IM, I’ll let folks know here how I feel, especially those who care to openly insult me for my decisions and go without retribution. __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Regardless of manufacturer, posting your personal dissatisfaction with a product in the AR Tech Forums does not do a thing for anyone. It only brings arguments. Personally, I feel you should keep your complaints private and deal with the problem one on one through email or telephone. Resolve the issue one on one. Give the issue time to be resolved. If you do not get anywhere with the individual or company that sold you the product you are unhappy with, THEN bring the matter into public. I think having the problem out in public is educational to any who read about it. The REAL issue is when the posts get off topic and people being to simply bash the manufacturer, that does nothing. Sometimes a bashing is in order; as you can see, this is NOT a black & white problem with a single answer. |
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Quoted:
As soon as you try to stick a sock in the mouth of anybody who posts negative remarks about a product, you become a shill for the vendor, and your credibility as a DISCUSSION FORUM is kaput. If a criticism is NOT founded, the members of the forum will shred the O.P. without the board administrator getting wound up in it. If the criticism IS founded, the manufacturer should sleep in the bed he made. You need to decide whether this is a discussion forum, or just some sort of electronic advertising medium. This. Let people post garbage at their own risk and let founded issues come to light to everyone - not just those that happen to be in direct contact with the issue. Other peoples' posts and issues have saved me alot of time and frustration. Telling people that they can't come to a technical discussion forum and describe the problem that they are having with a certain part, rifle, manufacturer, etc is garbage and unfair to ANYONE that comes here. The only issue I see with the current posts about manufacturers/vendors is that the moron made their post well before contacting the vendor/manufacturer to have the problem sorted out. The first question should be..have you contacted X about this? If yes..then let's explore your issue/problem/gripe. If no...go fuck yourself until you contact them and give them a chance to make it right. |
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Quoted:
We’ve discussed this over IM, I’ll let folks know here how I feel, especially those who care to openly insult me for my decisions and go without retribution. __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Regardless of manufacturer, posting your personal dissatisfaction with a product in the AR Tech Forums does not do a thing for anyone. It only brings arguments. Personally, I feel you should keep your complaints private and deal with the problem one on one through email or telephone. Resolve the issue one on one. Give the issue time to be resolved. If you do not get anywhere with the individual or company that sold you the product you are unhappy with, THEN bring the matter into public. this. I'm not saying complaints should be muffled. But manufacturers should be given a chance to correct it first... |
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Quoted: Perhaps agressive enforcement of "trashing" as opposed to informing, as well as a zero-tolerance policy on personal attacks directed towards the OP? I honestly would be glad to hear any suggestions you have of guidelines for this. I try to stay on top of name calling, but black and white rules are easier to defend. If a rule depends too much on a opinion, or is too easily argued either way it is toothless because locks will not stand up to review. "Well he might have meant A, not B" |
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It is immaterial anyways if you ask me. Try posting about the dogshit service you got from any of the "it" companies, and rule or not, the thread will turn into a slaughter fest by their fan boys. But with paid advertising, as this site has, it doesn't suit the business to allow people to openly trash the sponsors, just like UFC100. Its all about the bottom line...which is the real question....whats more important? Business or integrity? |
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I think that there is a tone that can be set in any post. I see no problem in letting someone complain about a product they have. Who knows? It may save another member a headache or on the other hand the poster may learn something new about what they are posting. Having said that, the tone of the thread shouldn't be one of shredding a manufacturer or distributor or at least until other recourses have been explored. There are always two sides to a story. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Perhaps agressive enforcement of "trashing" as opposed to informing, as well as a zero-tolerance policy on personal attacks directed towards the OP? I honestly would be glad to hear any suggestions you have of guidelines for this. I try to stay on top of name calling, but black and white rules are easier to defend. If a rule depends too much on a opinion, or is too easily argued either way it is toothless because locks will not stand up to review. "Well he might have meant A, not B" That's something I'll have to think about before I come up with a cogent response. Until then, I think we should immediately and automatically delete all posts containing variations of "it's a tool, just shoot it", "Mil-Spec says nothing about finish", and "Only function is important". 
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Quoted:
Regardless of manufacturer, posting your personal dissatisfaction with a product in the AR Tech Forums does not do a thing for anyone. It only brings arguments. Personally, I feel you should keep your complaints private and deal with the problem one on one through email or telephone. Resolve the issue one on one. Give the issue time to be resolved. If you do not get anywhere with the individual or company that sold you the product you are unhappy with, THEN bring the matter into public. I completely agree. Companies should be given a chance to fix an issue before they are bashed on the internet. If they don't fix the problem then I see no problem with creating a thread to get noticed. To be honest I think the rule change should be the opposite. No one should post about problems about ANY manufacturer until they have first given them a reasonable time/chance to respond. It would create a lot less drama around here since these threads seem to take a life of their own once started and are usually pointless in the end. |
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I think we should let people post what they experience. Only a couple of things happen. People that jump the gun and post before calling the Manufacturer usually end up with a resolution as soon as they do. Almost no one is left with a false impression.
Very few people continue the arguement without contacting the Manufacturer. Those that do are exposed quickly as dolts and their actions actually end up solidifying those they attempt to vilify. If there were an instance when unethical users were able to cast an unfounded shadow on a reputable manufacturer, I'd still only be a little more supportive of this type of sensorship. Free speech is a tough thing to live with, but it's best for all of us. This proposed sensorship is just like an assault weapons ban. It's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. This is exactly my point Edit |
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Regardless of manufacturer, posting your personal dissatisfaction with a product in the AR Tech Forums does not do a thing for anyone. It only brings arguments. Personally, I feel you should keep your complaints private and deal with the problem one on one through email or telephone. Resolve the issue one on one. Give the issue time to be resolved. If you do not get anywhere with the individual or company that sold you the product you are unhappy with, THEN bring the matter into public. I completely agree. Companies should be given a chance to fix an issue before they are bashed on the internet. If they don't fix the problem then I see no problem with creating a thread to get noticed. To be honest I think the rule change should be the opposite. No one should post about problems about ANY manufacturer until they have first given them a reasonable time/chance to respond. It would create a lot less drama around here since these threads seem to take a life of their own once started and are usually pointless in the end. EXACTLY my point. |
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i dont post here because i have three oly sum barreled uppers and sold a forth several years ago.
they are crap, i cant believe i actually own them. all you'all are so right about everything. i especially enjoy how any real opinion is so quickly squashed around here. ive only built two dozen ar15s and four dozen other rifles. for the most part i really dont know anything about ar15's, service rifles or competition shooting. opinions here are great if you enjoy blowing colt, aramlite and bushmaster up your own........ i also own colts, bushmaters and other manufactures as wel as other things. |
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Quoted: I saw a bolt from an Oly break it's first day in action, however it was replaced under warranty. Personally I don't want a bolt that breaks in half even if the manfacturer "takes care of it" i dont post here because i have three oly sum barreled uppers and sold a forth several years ago. they are crap, i cant believe i actually own them. all you'all are so right about everything. i especially enjoy how any real opinion is so quickly squashed around here. ive only built two dozen ar15s and four dozen other rifles. for the most part i really dont know anything about ar15's, service rifles or competition shooting. opinions here are great if you enjoy blowing colt, aramlite and bushmaster up your own........ i also own colts, bushmaters and other manufactures as wel as other things. |
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Quoted:
We’ve discussed this over IM, I’ll let folks know here how I feel, especially those who care to openly insult me for my decisions and go without retribution. __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Regardless of manufacturer, posting your personal dissatisfaction with a product in the AR Tech Forums does not do a thing for anyone. It only brings arguments. Personally, I feel you should keep your complaints private and deal with the problem one on one through email or telephone. Resolve the issue one on one. Give the issue time to be resolved. If you do not get anywhere with the individual or company that sold you the product you are unhappy with, THEN bring the matter into public. Exactly; so me many people openly complain, before they have actually sought resolution with the only outlet that can really offer it. |
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Quoted: What about my Oly example above? A broken bolt could get someone killed in a fight, but if Oly replaces all of them under warranty then no threads would ever show up about it. If some companies bolts are breaking is that something we should cover up for a week or two until the manufacturer responds? And maybe forever if they are willing to replace all of them?Quoted: We’ve discussed this over IM, I’ll let folks know here how I feel, especially those who care to openly insult me for my decisions and go without retribution. __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Regardless of manufacturer, posting your personal dissatisfaction with a product in the AR Tech Forums does not do a thing for anyone. It only brings arguments. Personally, I feel you should keep your complaints private and deal with the problem one on one through email or telephone. Resolve the issue one on one. Give the issue time to be resolved. If you do not get anywhere with the individual or company that sold you the product you are unhappy with, THEN bring the matter into public. Exactly; so me many people openly complain, before they have actually sought resolution with the only outlet that can really offer it. |
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I agree with the penguin 100%. If a manufacturer can't stand to hear the negatives, work harder to ensure they don't happen. If the gripes are unjustified, defend them in the open forum and let people make up their own minds. If people unjustly bitch, they'll be shown to be in the wrong, in full view of the buying public. |
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...you can beat on Oly all day long...but post a picture of a noveske upper with a bad finish and it will be whisked away to trash.... Probably just an oversight, but I've never seen an "I have a problem with my Oly..." thread yet. The threads usually run for a bit, then they get locked, a PM or email sent to the thread starter, and a note stating that when the manufacturer has had a chance to respond, we'd like to be notified so we can unlock the thread for a final disposition report. Some are unfavorable outcomes, most are of course well handled by the vendors because most of the vendors are the same people who sell here, and have a solid name in the industry. Daniel Defense, Noveske, Vltor, Magpul, LMT, COLT, BCM, KAC, Blue Force Gear, Troy, Tango Down, and Lancer. We want to hear the story all at once: Starting with the purchase, the presentation of the problems, the self-diagnosis, customer service diagnosis and a final resolution. Typically all you see is the bitching about the problems and the pile-on. When it's resolved, there's usually no reason to come back and praise the vendor/dealer for making it right. |
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People buy a car and trash it all day long. Why should it be any different. I don't care if "so and so" makes a good rifle, if mine SUCKS, it SUCKS.
It's the American way. Throw shit out, let people make their own minds up. ETA- sorry but I see some manufacturers getting a pass, others not so much. |
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I get sick of seeing one person post an issue and that the fan boys from BOTH sides (for and against whichever mfg) come in and make a mess of a good question.
I wish there was a way to limit them, and thus allow the legit question to be answered. Impossible, probably, but Im just stating my thoughts since this appears to be open discussion. |
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Quoted:
yep. Especially helpful if a mfg has recently put out a bad batch. No one would know about it until weeks later when it's resolved for the first guy (if a thread is even posted) but too late anyone else, who now get to go through the same thing. ^ this /thread |
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I say keep it, through the responses newbs get an idea of what is acceptable and what is not. Many people realize they have either no problem and it is normal, or that they have a problem and a right to be upset. eternal is on to something there. Maybe we should just stop taking new members and the complaint threads would drop about 99%.
I understand both Aimless' and Quib's point of view and don't believe there is a solution that will satisfy everyone. That being said I personally am tired of all the threads bitching about colors not matching, imperfections in the finish, etc, so I just skip them. I understand that its mostly coming from people who saved up to buy that first AR and want it to be perfect and will most likely not shoot it much. |
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I am leaning towards what Quib has said.
But.........I think it may be better suited to have a specific place in the AR15 section to post complaints about items. And I think the tech forums need to be enforced some more. When people are allowed to contribute nothing but calling others "kool-aid drinkers" and making sarcastic comments in lieu of actual technical discussion it brings down the entire forum. Also, the bashing of Colt, S&W and Ruger over past politics needs to stop in Tech. The politics of these companies in no way, shape or form impacts the actual equipment quality and has no technical merit. Why there is so much hate for Colt I will never know. |
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Quoted: I agree with your logic. All threads should be treated the same. Either lock 'em all, or let 'em all ride as long as there are no COC violations. With my preference toward free speech, I say let 'em stay open. agreed 100% - All are open to discussion or none. I am also tired of the "tier 1" immunity around here. |
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Quoted:
What about my Oly example above? A broken bolt could get someone killed in a fight, but if Oly replaces all of them under warranty then no threads would ever show up about it. If some companies bolts are breaking is that something we should cover up for a week or two until the manufacturer responds? And maybe forever if they are willing to replace all of them? The part of the equation that you are missing from your example is that the thread is not trashed, and it's not an attempted cover-up. The starting and early progression of the thread is maintained until a positive or negative resolution is made. Definitely more work than just letting a pile-on of fan-boys or of haters to progress unchecked. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - New Proposed Rule-please read (Page 1 of 5)
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