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Posted: 7/20/2009 3:03:13 PM EDT
| Can someone explain to me the pros and cons of polygonal rifling? |
Just a different style of rifling. There are no downside that I'm aware of. Pac-Nor is probably one of the better barrels out there before you step up to full custom cut rifled and hand lapped units like Krieger sells. Pac-Nor uses polygonal rifling. People report higher velocities which usually means a tighter seal and higher pressures. They also report easier cleaning. I own several and have not run enough rounds through then to tell you anything other than they are accurate. Noveske uses them for his stainless steel barrels. John Holliger was recommending them for custom builds a while ago, I don't know what his barrel of choice is presently. I think he still uses Pac-Nor blanks for his .204 Ruger uppers. I think you'll be very happy if you run with a Pac-Nor polygonal barrel, John Noveske and John Holliger can't be all wrong.
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People claim longer barrel life, better accuracy, higher velocity, and less lead build up. I haven't put enough rounds through mine to notice most of that yet. I do notice a significant accuracy increase, but that is most likely due to a different twist rate and the fact that it is free floated, among other reasons.
I'd be interested in seeing a comparison of a polygonal rifled barrel and a normal barrel of the same length and twist rate. 
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When and if the bench rest crowd starts flocking to them, there is something too it. But, it's been around forever and they aren't using it. Price is no object to those guys for the least little advantage.
The bench rest crowd is almost 100% single point cut rifling. There really must be a reason for that. 
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I'd be interested in seeing a comparison of a polygonal rifled barrel and a normal barrel of the same length and twist rate. there is no measurable difference in accuracy, barrel life, or velocity. That's funny. I always scroll down these threads about polythis, or new that and look for your responses. Tis pretty amazing that in the end, most barrels are just barrels. Some are made correctly, but few are made with super secret squirrel pixie dust that makes them better. |
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I'd be interested in seeing a comparison of a polygonal rifled barrel and a normal barrel of the same length and twist rate. there is no measurable difference in accuracy, barrel life, or velocity. That's a pretty strong statement. I respect you for that. Accuracy is what i want. Can you give it to me with a barrel you have. I have a Recon and think it is a good barrel. I'm not worried about barrel life or velocity. |
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I have a Recon and think it is a good barrel. I'm not worried about barrel life or velocity. Denny has good guys using good blanks make his barrels, the accuracy potential of the barrel is not a concern. Keep that barrel and buy more practice ammo. I don't need more practice ammo, I make what I need. Maybe we're on a different page, Tell me what you have that's better, I'm willing to buy a better barrel, Tell me what to buy. In stock, ready to ship, can you make it for me. |
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I have a Recon and think it is a good barrel. I'm not worried about barrel life or velocity. Denny has good guys using good blanks make his barrels, the accuracy potential of the barrel is not a concern. Keep that barrel and buy more practice ammo. I don't need more practice ammo, I make what I need. Maybe we're on a different page, Tell me what you have that's better, I'm willing to buy a better barrel, Tell me what to buy. In stock, ready to ship, can you make it for me. you dont need a better barrel. If you are such a good shot, that you a getting shots that are off call, buy a new barrel. It all depends on what you want want to do with the carbine. The AR is a tool made for shooting people, if you are building one to shoot tight groups from a bench, you have the wrong gun. I know more than a few High Masters shooting service rifle with WOA/RRA - Wilson barrels, they will get the job done. If you are match rifle shooter, shooting a Tubb Gun, in 6.5x284 get a Krieger. Its probably the best barrel, but it will be shot out in under 2K rounds. |
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I have a Recon and think it is a good barrel. I'm not worried about barrel life or velocity. Denny has good guys using good blanks make his barrels, the accuracy potential of the barrel is not a concern. Keep that barrel and buy more practice ammo. I don't need more practice ammo, I make what I need. Maybe we're on a different page, Tell me what you have that's better, I'm willing to buy a better barrel, Tell me what to buy. In stock, ready to ship, can you make it for me. you dont need a better barrel. If you are such a good shot, that you a getting shots that are off call, buy a new barrel. It all depends on what you want want to do with the carbine. The AR is a tool made for shooting people, if you are building one to shoot tight groups from a bench, you have the wrong gun. I know more than a few High Masters shooting service rifle with WOA/RRA - Wilson barrels, they will get the job done. If you are match rifle shooter, shooting a Tubb Gun, in 6.5x284 get a Krieger. Its probably the best barrel, but it will be shot out in under 2K rounds. First of all I never said I was a good shot. Second, I don't believe in calling a shot (you shoot what you shoot). My carbine is my S&W, is that different than my middy ReCon (you tell me). I'm not out to shoot the high power or like the people on bench rest, but I'd like to shoot the best I can shoot with an AR15. I spend my money with people I can trust. Maybe I'll buy a Krieger. Tell me.............................So Adco should be advocating people shooting people. Not good for the 2nd Admend.........YTMV. |
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So Adco should be advocating people shooting people.
Sorry but I missed where he advocated shooting people. I read where he said that the AR is a tool designed to shoot people. If you can find any evidence that contradicts that statement I would be very interested in reading it. As far as I knew it was designed specifically for the military for the specific purpose of throwing bullets toward human targets. Not all ar15's are equal. There are m4's, midlengths, rifles, predator, varmint...etc. I think what he was trying to say is that a base m4 from any company is only going to be as good as what it was designed for. (shoot at people sized targets) That said, there are ar15 configurations that are more for the bench shooter. Many of the predator and varmint styles will get you the accuracy you are looking for if your m4 variant is not getting the job done. Many barrels are good but they can't make up for a less than perfect rifle configuration. The M4 was never designed to be the most accurate configuration of the ar style rifle. That said, there may still be m4 variants that get sub moa, but I bet they are few and far between and many of them are made up by internet sharp shooters. Lastly, the anti's lie about the second amendment enough. I try not to let their lies cause me to believe or say anything that isn't true. The whole purpose behind the second amendment was to allow the people a deadly force option against private and/or public injury. It was not to allow them to hunt. Denying that fact only gives anti's more "hunting purposes only" ammunition. So, I believe that in selling thousands of rifles and parts and then be willing to help others understand them, ADCO has done more for the second amendment than most of us here. I appreciate Steve's willingness to offer his insights. |
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I have a Recon and think it is a good barrel. I'm not worried about barrel life or velocity. Denny has good guys using good blanks make his barrels, the accuracy potential of the barrel is not a concern. Keep that barrel and buy more practice ammo. I don't need more practice ammo, I make what I need. Maybe we're on a different page, Tell me what you have that's better, I'm willing to buy a better barrel, Tell me what to buy. In stock, ready to ship, can you make it for me. you dont need a better barrel. If you are such a good shot, that you a getting shots that are off call, buy a new barrel. It all depends on what you want want to do with the carbine. The AR is a tool made for shooting people, if you are building one to shoot tight groups from a bench, you have the wrong gun. I know more than a few High Masters shooting service rifle with WOA/RRA - Wilson barrels, they will get the job done. If you are match rifle shooter, shooting a Tubb Gun, in 6.5x284 get a Krieger. Its probably the best barrel, but it will be shot out in under 2K rounds. Very cheap and disengenuious shot at ADCO NO Where did ADCO advocate as you claim Simply stated the M-16 and by extension AR-15 type of rifle is exactly that an AMERICAN combat rifle designed soley for the purpose of killing our enemies.. What kind of person could possibly object to that? |
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So Adco should be advocating people shooting people.
Sorry but I missed where he advocated shooting people. I read where he said that the m4 is a tool designed to shoot people. If you can find any evidence that contradicts that statement I would be very interested in reading it. As far as I knew it was designed specifically for the military for the specific purpose of throwing bullets toward human targets. Not all ar15's are equal. There are m4's, midlengths, rifles, predator, varmint...etc. I think what he was trying to say is that a base m4 from any company is only going to be as good as what it was designed for. (shoot at people sized targets) That said, there are ar15 configurations that are more for the bench shooter. Many of the predator and varmint styles will get you the accuracy you are looking for if your m4 variant is not getting the job done. Many barrels are good but they can't make up for a less than perfect rifle configuration. The M4 was never designed to be the most accurate configuration of the ar style rifle. That said, there may still be m4 variants that get sub moa, but I bet they are few and far between and many of them are made up by internet sharp shooters. Lastly, the anti's lie about the second amendment enough. I try not to let their lies cause me to believe or say anything that isn't true. The whole purpose behind the second amendment was to allow the people a deadly force option against private and/or public injury. It was not to allow them to hunt. Denying that fact only gives anti's more "hunting purposes only" ammunition. So, I believe that in selling thousands of rifles and parts and then be willing to help others understand them, ADCO has done more for the second amendment than most of us here. I appreciate Steve's willingness to offer his insights. "The AR is a tool made for shooting people." Don't get me wrong, I just think people should be careful with what they say. I have no problem with what you believe. |
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Wow, this topic is spinning off target faster than a 1/6 Shillen!
re velocity, chamber size has more effect than rifling. Otherwise, once you reach a certain threshold== and Noveske exceeds that threshold- a number of barrels will quibble over a few hundredths of an inch. The OP's question is a good one, but Op please realize the people responding have heard this question countless times over YEARS. Noveske charges a huge premium for his barrels, which are admittedly very very good, but many people resent the cult like status he has achieved. A well made Poly barrel will shoot with a well made match grade button rifle. At the stratospheric level of major match competition, you will not find many poly barrels, but in the tactical world poly are highly regarded for what they are–– very high quality tactical barrels. btw I own two Kriegers. Cut rifled. |
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1. No where did Bigbore say he advocated shooting people.
2. The AR-15 WAS designed as a combat weapon, and there is no reason to try and conceal that fact from anyone. It would be absurd to try. 3. What's not good for the 2nd Amendment are people who constantly try to reinterpret it as somehow being about "hunting." IT ISN'T. The 2nd Amendment is about having the right to own effective means of self defense without needing "permission" from the state. The people who would have us believe that our strongest argument in favor of the 2A is to hide behind "hunting" and "sport shooting" are leading us down the path to ruin. |
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I have a Recon and think it is a good barrel. I'm not worried about barrel life or velocity. Denny has good guys using good blanks make his barrels, the accuracy potential of the barrel is not a concern. Keep that barrel and buy more practice ammo. I don't need more practice ammo, I make what I need. Maybe we're on a different page, Tell me what you have that's better, I'm willing to buy a better barrel, Tell me what to buy. In stock, ready to ship, can you make it for me. you dont need a better barrel. If you are such a good shot, that you a getting shots that are off call, buy a new barrel. It all depends on what you want want to do with the carbine. The AR is a tool made for shooting people, if you are building one to shoot tight groups from a bench, you have the wrong gun. I know more than a few High Masters shooting service rifle with WOA/RRA - Wilson barrels, they will get the job done. If you are match rifle shooter, shooting a Tubb Gun, in 6.5x284 get a Krieger. Its probably the best barrel, but it will be shot out in under 2K rounds. Very cheap and disengenuious shot at ADCO NO Where did ADCO advocate as you claim Simply stated the M-16 and by extension AR-15 type of rifle is exactly that an AMERICAN combat rifle designed soley for the purpose of killing our enemies.. What kind of person could possibly object to that? Cheap shot at Adco, what the fuck are you talking about, I'm stupid, please explain this to me? |
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I have a Recon and think it is a good barrel. I'm not worried about barrel life or velocity. Denny has good guys using good blanks make his barrels, the accuracy potential of the barrel is not a concern. Keep that barrel and buy more practice ammo. I don't need more practice ammo, I make what I need. Maybe we're on a different page, Tell me what you have that's better, I'm willing to buy a better barrel, Tell me what to buy. In stock, ready to ship, can you make it for me. you dont need a better barrel. If you are such a good shot, that you a getting shots that are off call, buy a new barrel. It all depends on what you want want to do with the carbine. The AR is a tool made for shooting people, if you are building one to shoot tight groups from a bench, you have the wrong gun. I know more than a few High Masters shooting service rifle with WOA/RRA - Wilson barrels, they will get the job done. If you are match rifle shooter, shooting a Tubb Gun, in 6.5x284 get a Krieger. Its probably the best barrel, but it will be shot out in under 2K rounds. I perfer the 260 rem or 6.5 x 47 lapua. The 284 is a freaking barrel burner for the small increase in velocity. I agree with the choice of Krieger also, Krieger uses taller lands and that seems to up my velocity compared to other manufactures barrel blanks. Everyone I know that shot a 284 started to lose accuracy from throat wear at around 1K rounds. That's as bad as the old 220 Swift. |
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I have a Recon and think it is a good barrel. I'm not worried about barrel life or velocity. Denny has good guys using good blanks make his barrels, the accuracy potential of the barrel is not a concern. Keep that barrel and buy more practice ammo. I don't need more practice ammo, I make what I need. Maybe we're on a different page, Tell me what you have that's better, I'm willing to buy a better barrel, Tell me what to buy. In stock, ready to ship, can you make it for me. you dont need a better barrel. If you are such a good shot, that you a getting shots that are off call, buy a new barrel. It all depends on what you want want to do with the carbine. The AR is a tool made for shooting people, if you are building one to shoot tight groups from a bench, you have the wrong gun. I know more than a few High Masters shooting service rifle with WOA/RRA - Wilson barrels, they will get the job done. If you are match rifle shooter, shooting a Tubb Gun, in 6.5x284 get a Krieger. Its probably the best barrel, but it will be shot out in under 2K rounds. Very cheap and disengenuious shot at ADCO NO Where did ADCO advocate as you claim Simply stated the M-16 and by extension AR-15 type of rifle is exactly that an AMERICAN combat rifle designed soley for the purpose of killing our enemies.. What kind of person could possibly object to that? Cheap shot at Adco, what the fuck are you talking about, I'm stupid, please explain this to me? +1 Seriously, you have done nothing but post inane gibberish. At no time did he say there was anything wrong with your barrel, but that didn't stop you from fabricating God knows what in your brain. 
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. . . Pac-Nor uses polygonal rifling. People report higher velocities . . . People report all kinds of nonsense without a shred of data to support it. If you compare the velocity of a Noveske poly-rifled barrel to that of a chrome lined NATO CHAMBERED BARREL, then of course the Novekse barrel will have a slightly higher velocity; because it has a tighter chamber than a NATO chambered barrel. If you compare the velocity of a Noveske poly-rifled barrel to that of a single point cut rifled Krieger barrel, the Krieger barrel will have a slightly higher velocity; because it has a slightly tighter chamber than the Noveske barrel. 
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Quoted: Cheap shot at Adco, what the fuck are you talking about, I'm stupid, please explain this to me? Dude, you wrote this: Tell me.............................So Adco should be advocating people shooting people. Not good for the 2nd Admend.........YTMV. Why don't you tell us what YOU meant by it. IMHO, it WAS a BS shot at ADCO. Never once did he or anyone on this thread advocate "shooting people". But the simple fact is the AR-15 is a tool that was originally designed to kill people. In fact I would submit that 99% of all you AR-15 owners out there bought the gun specifically BECAUSE it was designed to kill people. Not that any of us want to kill someone (I certainly don't), but if we are going to own a rifle that has utility in a SHTF/HD or whatever scenario - we might as well have one designed for the job. If we were pure hunters or target shooters - we would own .30-06 Savage bolt action rifles or purpose made competition target rifles. Sure, many AR platforms have been modified into purpose built hunting or target rifles. But the fact is the base gun is designed to kill bad guys. And I could not agree more with other posters who say the 2nd Am is about protecting oneself and one's state/community from invaders as well as oppressive regimes. It is NOT about hunting or sporting purposes. I think this is where the NRA really dropped the ball over the years in not advocating that position more forcibly and instead they tried to sell america on hunting rights. The 2nd Am has nothing to do with that. Sorry for the GD hijack but it needed to be said. Edit to add: to keep it technical - my Larue Stealth has a 1/8 poly SS barrel. I couldn't be happier with the accuracy. Does it make a significant diff? I don't know because I don't have anything to compare it to except for basic chrome-lined carbines. But I do know it works. I'd say if you get a good barrel from a high-end maker like WOA, Kreiger, Walther-Lothar, Noveske, etc - you can't go wrong regardless of the rifling type. |
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HK gave the XM8 Carbine version a 12.5 inch barrel. Hexagonal rifling was supposed to make up for the loss of muzzle velocity from the shorter barrel vs. the M4. They never released the test results that were supposed to confirm this. The XM8 was reported to have a polygonal bore, which is not the same thing as polygonal rifling being discussed here. poly-rifling 
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. . . Pac-Nor uses polygonal rifling. People report higher velocities . . . People report all kinds of nonsense without a shred of data to support it. If you compare the velocity of a Noveske poly-rifled barrel to that of a chrome lined NATO CHAMBERED BARREL, then of course the Novekse barrel will have a slightly higher velocity; because it has a tighter chamber than a NATO chambered barrel. If you compare the velocity of a Noveske poly-rifled barrel to that of a single point cut rifled Krieger barrel, the Krieger barrel will have a slightly higher velocity; because it has a slightly tighter chamber than the Noveske barrel. http://www.box.net/shared/static/s6v3tq2i2p.jpg I always thought it was the taller lands, because my Krieger match barrels have elongated throat leeds (longer than a 5.56 lead, I special ordered the reamer made for the throats on my match barrels) and my Chrono says they are faster than other barrels. I could be wrong, but my jump on these barrels are alot longer than normal 5.56 chambers and far more than a .223 (I did this to seat my 80 JLKs way out and loaded over the limit, but don't see any pressure issues due to the longer jump). Obermeyer told me that taller lands create higher pressures, but higher velocities also. I figure if anyone knows, he would know. |
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. . . Pac-Nor uses polygonal rifling. People report higher velocities . . . People report all kinds of nonsense without a shred of data to support it. If you compare the velocity of a Noveske poly-rifled barrel to that of a chrome lined NATO CHAMBERED BARREL, then of course the Novekse barrel will have a slightly higher velocity; because it has a tighter chamber than a NATO chambered barrel. If you compare the velocity of a Noveske poly-rifled barrel to that of a single point cut rifled Krieger barrel, the Krieger barrel will have a slightly higher velocity; because it has a slightly tighter chamber than the Noveske barrel. http://www.box.net/shared/static/s6v3tq2i2p.jpg I always thought it was the taller lands, because my Krieger match barrels have elongated throat leeds (longer than a 5.56 lead, I special ordered the reamer made for the throats on my match barrels) and my Chrono says they are faster than other barrels. I could be wrong, but my jump on these barrels are alot longer than normal 5.56 chambers and far more than a .223 (I did this to seat my 80 JLKs way out and loaded over the limit, but don't see any pressure issues due to the longer jump). Obermeyer told me that taller lands create higher pressures, but higher velocities also. I figure if anyone knows, he would know. And what of your chamber body? NATO chamber body > Noveske chamber body > Krieger match chamber body |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I have a Recon and think it is a good barrel. I'm not worried about barrel life or velocity. Denny has good guys using good blanks make his barrels, the accuracy potential of the barrel is not a concern. Keep that barrel and buy more practice ammo. I don't need more practice ammo, I make what I need. Maybe we're on a different page, Tell me what you have that's better, I'm willing to buy a better barrel, Tell me what to buy. In stock, ready to ship, can you make it for me. you dont need a better barrel. If you are such a good shot, that you a getting shots that are off call, buy a new barrel. It all depends on what you want want to do with the carbine. The AR is a tool made for shooting people, if you are building one to shoot tight groups from a bench, you have the wrong gun. I know more than a few High Masters shooting service rifle with WOA/RRA - Wilson barrels, they will get the job done. If you are match rifle shooter, shooting a Tubb Gun, in 6.5x284 get a Krieger. Its probably the best barrel, but it will be shot out in under 2K rounds. Very cheap and disengenuious shot at ADCO NO Where did ADCO advocate as you claim Simply stated the M-16 and by extension AR-15 type of rifle is exactly that an AMERICAN combat rifle designed soley for the purpose of killing our enemies.. What kind of person could possibly object to that? Cheap shot at Adco, what the fuck are you talking about, I'm stupid, please explain this to me? Stupid? I have no idea but we may find out as you continue this discussion. I believe that you are in fact stirring the pot. I'm pretty sure that most others posting/viewing this thread would agree. |
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