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Posted: 7/8/2009 8:07:42 PM EDT
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ok guys....I dont think I have canted FSBs but I am anal and bored so will throw this up. Have been reading on other forums about ARs with a canted FSB(Seems very common), what I noticed was a trend that most shooters who did have canted FS were mostly adjusting there rear sight to the left to compensate, which got me thinking.
I went and checked my ARs, both are zeroed in with rear sight adjusted to the left... from center go left in between the 2nd and 3rd(from the center knotch left) line dead center is where I am. Both ARs are set up like this, and my T1s are set dead center on top of the sight post.........when I am looking through the rear sight everything looks ok and straight, but sometimes if I am looking DOWN on the rifle it looks to me like the front sight base leans a little right(optical illusion?) normal? Both rifles zeroed in, both tack drivers.......is this NORMAL amounts of clicks to the left for zero?(just my shooting style?) or could I have canted FSB? I will have to check my Benelli M2 ghost sights tomorrow as well. Here is the pic that got me to questioning it......this was posted on another Forum, my rear sights are Troys, but my Zero is pretty much the same as in pic. My rear sight is NOT all the way over as in this pic.....but the placement is the same on both my rifles....same spot between 2nd and 3rd line http://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=225&d=1184913684 here is the sight I use....TROy rear sight.....as you can see in Pic, start at mechanical zero in center....move to next line then third, my sight is zeroed inbetween the 2nd and third line. http://troyind.com/RearFoldingTritium.html |
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A little to the L or R of center is ok. If i get one thats reaching the limits I remove the barrel and adjust the centering pin, using a laser bore sighter to adjust then test fire. Works every time.
If your only a few clicks of center your probably your ok, most likely your eyes playing tricks on you unless the receiver was machined off center and is lining up with a severly canted FSB. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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The easiest way to tell if the FSB is canted is to lay the rifle upside down on a flat table or counter so that its resting on the front and rear sight "ears." If one of the front sight ears is sitting up off the table a little, the FSB is canted.
Both of my RRA are a little canted, I had to adjust my rear sight about 10 clicks to the the RIGHT on one and about 15 clicks to the RIGHT on the other. Doesn't bother me though because they are zeroed. My Colt 6920 didn't need any adjustment at all, it was zeroed with the rear sight dead center. |
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The easiest way to tell if the FSB is canted is to lay the rifle upside down on a flat table or counter so that its resting on the front and rear sight "ears." If one of the front sight ears is sitting up off the table a little, the FSB is canted. Wrong. There are MANY FSBs with uneven ears, and uneven towers/bases themselves. You may have a FSB that is off center, but the post(the part this is important) is indeed in the correct location. The FSB is nothing more than a gas block with a spot to hold the front sight post. When it was designed no one ever figured there would be a bunch of babies crying on the internet because it "looks" crooked. 
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22 clicks of adjustment is the limit IIRC so your saying 22 clicks either side is normal? well not really normal but I guess with more than 22 clicks the canted FSB starts to "close" the gas port causing short stroking 22 clicks of what affects the gas port? |
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The easiest way to tell if the FSB is canted is to lay the rifle upside down on a flat table or counter so that its resting on the front and rear sight "ears." If one of the front sight ears is sitting up off the table a little, the FSB is canted. Wrong. There are MANY FSBs with uneven ears, and uneven towers/bases themselves. You may have a FSB that is off center, but the post(the part this is important) is indeed in the correct location. The FSB is nothing more than a gas block with a spot to hold the front sight post. When it was designed no one ever figured there would be a bunch of babies crying on the internet because it "looks" crooked.
Good to know. So in my case, where I had to adjust my RRA rear sights 10-15 clicks right to zero them, I may just have an uneven tower base or ears? |
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Good to know. So in my case, where I had to adjust my RRA rear sights 10-15 clicks right to zero them, I may just have an uneven tower base or ears? The ears have nothing to do with it, sometimes the tower has nothing to do with it. If you take 10 different BUIS and install them each on the same upper - they will all require a different amount of clicks either way. We are talking carbines, made for shooting people, not target rifles with mechanical zero match sights. Its about being within spec - if it takes a few clicks to line up, its fine, it will do what it was meant to do. Thats it, accept it for what it is and move on. 
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Good to know. So in my case, where I had to adjust my RRA rear sights 10-15 clicks right to zero them, I may just have an uneven tower base or ears? The ears have nothing to do with it, sometimes the tower has nothing to do with it. If you take 10 different BUIS and install them each on the same upper - they will all require a different amount of clicks either way. We are talking carbines, made for shooting people, not target rifles with mechanical zero match sights. Its about being within spec - if it takes a few clicks to line up, its fine, it will do what it was meant to do. Thats it, accept it for what it is and move on.
Thanks, I'm not complaining or bitching, just curious. And the OP was the one who posted the question, not me. |
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The easiest way to tell if the FSB is canted is to lay the rifle upside down on a flat table or counter so that its resting on the front and rear sight "ears." If one of the front sight ears is sitting up off the table a little, the FSB is canted. Wrong. There are MANY FSBs with uneven ears, and uneven towers/bases themselves. You may have a FSB that is off center, but the post(the part this is important) is indeed in the correct location. The FSB is nothing more than a gas block with a spot to hold the front sight post. When it was designed no one ever figured there would be a bunch of babies crying on the internet because it "looks" crooked.
LOL |
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The easiest way to tell if the FSB is canted is to lay the rifle upside down on a flat table or counter so that its resting on the front and rear sight "ears." If one of the front sight ears is sitting up off the table a little, the FSB is canted. Wrong. There are MANY FSBs with uneven ears, and uneven towers/bases themselves. You may have a FSB that is off center, but the post(the part this is important) is indeed in the correct location. The FSB is nothing more than a gas block with a spot to hold the front sight post. When it was designed no one ever figured there would be a bunch of babies crying on the internet because it "looks" crooked.
Are you calling me a crybaby? for being curious to see if my FSB is canted? mind you watch what you say as I am sending 2 of my uppers to you have turned down. What I noticed last night asurfing the web was that it appears a canted FSB is fairly common. What I would like to know is what is an ACCEPTABLE amount of clicks for windage on the REAR sight without getting to the point where the FSB is considered Canted. As you can see in the second link I provided I use the TROY rear sight......my rear sight is off to the left a few clicks but it is in noway bottomed out. If you look at the center line on the rear sight and go over 2 lines I am in the middle of the next 2 lines.......I feel that this is more than acceptable as far as adjustment for windage......I checked out my Benelli M2 and I have the same going on, it seems that all my rear sight apps are to the left. But the question remains what is acceptable before its considerd canted......is there a certain number of clicks that is considered normal? |
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The easiest way to tell if the FSB is canted is to lay the rifle upside down on a flat table or counter so that its resting on the front and rear sight "ears." If one of the front sight ears is sitting up off the table a little, the FSB is canted. Wrong. There are MANY FSBs with uneven ears, and uneven towers/bases themselves. You may have a FSB that is off center, but the post(the part this is important) is indeed in the correct location. The FSB is nothing more than a gas block with a spot to hold the front sight post. When it was designed no one ever figured there would be a bunch of babies crying on the internet because it "looks" crooked.
Yeah, its a CASTING. If you want dead nuts, get machined FUFS. Heck, even the new ARMS #41s are cast on the bottom. If you look at it long enough to see if it is crooked, eventually eye strain is going to take over, and you will believe it is crooked. Brett |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The easiest way to tell if the FSB is canted is to lay the rifle upside down on a flat table or counter so that its resting on the front and rear sight "ears." If one of the front sight ears is sitting up off the table a little, the FSB is canted. Wrong. There are MANY FSBs with uneven ears, and uneven towers/bases themselves. You may have a FSB that is off center, but the post(the part this is important) is indeed in the correct location. The FSB is nothing more than a gas block with a spot to hold the front sight post. When it was designed no one ever figured there would be a bunch of babies crying on the internet because it "looks" crooked. Yeah, its a CASTING. If you want dead nuts, get machined FUFS. Heck, even the new ARMS #41s are cast on the bottom. If you look at it long enough to see if it is crooked, eventually eye strain is going to take over, and you will believe it is crooked. Brett A front sight base is not cast... Unless you've got a POS Olympic or something. |
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again I dont think its canted.....especially now after looking at my benelli and seeing that the rear sight is left also......it has to do with my cheekweld and what I find to be proper zero for me.
Is there a certain amount of windage clicks for the rear sight that is considered acceptable? I thought I read somewhere that a certain amount is considered ok. |
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The easiest way to tell if the FSB is canted is to lay the rifle upside down on a flat table or counter so that its resting on the front and rear sight "ears." If one of the front sight ears is sitting up off the table a little, the FSB is canted. Wrong. There are MANY FSBs with uneven ears, and uneven towers/bases themselves. You may have a FSB that is off center, but the post(the part this is important) is indeed in the correct location. The FSB is nothing more than a gas block with a spot to hold the front sight post. When it was designed no one ever figured there would be a bunch of babies crying on the internet because it "looks" crooked.
Are you calling me a crybaby? for being curious to see if my FSB is canted? mind you watch what you say as I am sending 2 of my uppers to you have turned down. What I noticed last night asurfing the web was that it appears a canted FSB is fairly common. What I would like to know is what is an ACCEPTABLE amount of clicks for windage on the REAR sight without getting to the point where the FSB is considered Canted. As you can see in the second link I provided I use the TROY rear sight......my rear sight is off to the left a few clicks but it is in noway bottomed out. If you look at the center line on the rear sight and go over 2 lines I am in the middle of the next 2 lines.......I feel that this is more than acceptable as far as adjustment for windage......I checked out my Benelli M2 and I have the same going on, it seems that all my rear sight apps are to the left. But the question remains what is acceptable before its considerd canted......is there a certain number of clicks that is considered normal? I can't view your first pic because I'm not a member of that sight. |
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On my Del-Ton flat top I had a removable carry handle/sight and it was WAY off. I sold it and replaced it with a MBUS and it was dead on. Just my experience and my front sight is also dead straight.
I really agree with the guy that said these rifles are mainly for shooting people and if you're on paper and close to where you want the round to go then it's fine. |
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The easiest way to tell if the FSB is canted is to lay the rifle upside down on a flat table or counter so that its resting on the front and rear sight "ears." If one of the front sight ears is sitting up off the table a little, the FSB is canted. Wrong. There are MANY FSBs with uneven ears, and uneven towers/bases themselves. You may have a FSB that is off center, but the post(the part this is important) is indeed in the correct location. The FSB is nothing more than a gas block with a spot to hold the front sight post. When it was designed no one ever figured there would be a bunch of babies crying on the internet because it "looks" crooked.
I know you're a good company and all, but this is a helluva way to win friends and influence people. The average Joe forks over more than a grand for a rifle that he hopes is a pretty precision-made piece of weaponry. Not perfect, but pretty damn good. Sure he's going to be disappointed if his friggin front sight is crooked. Then some bozo advertiser on the website gets all uppity and calls him a baby for asking about it. Frankly, that was totally unnecessary and really a little shitty. Maybe people will consider your snotty-ass attitude when they think about sending you some business. . . |
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The easiest way to tell if the FSB is canted is to lay the rifle upside down on a flat table or counter so that its resting on the front and rear sight "ears." If one of the front sight ears is sitting up off the table a little, the FSB is canted. Wrong. There are MANY FSBs with uneven ears, and uneven towers/bases themselves. You may have a FSB that is off center, but the post(the part this is important) is indeed in the correct location. The FSB is nothing more than a gas block with a spot to hold the front sight post. When it was designed no one ever figured there would be a bunch of babies crying on the internet because it "looks" crooked.
I know you're a good company and all, but this is a helluva way to win friends and influence people. The average Joe forks over more than a grand for a rifle that he hopes is a pretty precision-made piece of weaponry. Not perfect, but pretty damn good. Sure he's going to be disappointed if his friggin front sight is crooked. Then some bozo advertiser on the website gets all uppity and calls him a baby for asking about it. Frankly, that was totally unnecessary and really a little shitty. Maybe people will consider your snotty-ass attitude when they think about sending you some business. . . totally have to agree on that.......I was getting ready to send (2) uppers to them also to have my barrels turned down and after that comment I have been struggling on wheather or not I want to send them my money now. Your a industry partner......not the kind of thing I would expect from you guys, but I digress......so does anybody know the magic number? |
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My rear sight is NOT all the way over as in this pic..... http://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=225&d=1184913684 
Between the "2nd and 3rd" line on a Troy sight means nothing as sometimes the markings are off center. If your sight isn't as far left as in the linked pic, I wouldn't worry about it. Looks worse than it is thanks to shadow. |
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mine look as the pic above in betwen the 2nd and 3rd line but buy no means out totally to the left.......I have plenty of clicks left, so yes same spot as pic above but definately not bottomed out by any means.....I agree I think that shot looks worse than it really is on account of the shadow.
still waiting for the acceptable number for military spec......anyone? |
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bigbore
The FSB is nothing more than a gas block with a spot to hold the front sight post. When it was designed no one ever figured there would be a bunch of babies crying on the internet because it "looks" crooked.
I'm going to find something I don't need.. and buy it from you, just because of that comment.......... 
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So, what's the big problem? A little FSB cant never hurt anybody. The guy next to you at the Nationals won't mind that you're poking holes in his target. If he does, he's probably a crybaby, anyway.
I wouldn't buy anything from ADCO now if they were giving away 5 lb. gold bars with every order. |
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Milspec for carbine is 22 clicks
Sights were designed on a battle rifle approx 2-1/2" over bore. When used in the field they were never meant to be adjusted for wind (windage), they were made to adjust for a shooters zero and forgotton about. Set'em and forget'em. Survivorman, Send your stuff to Steve. When you see his quality of work, turn around, and great pricing - you will be happy you did. I have sent many a custom cut his way. Always excellent. Hope this info helps, Thanks! Paul
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mine look like this also.I have more than 1 AR and almost all of them are adjusted just like in this pic http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss145/winfrey57/rearsightctr.jpg Barely past 1 hash mark. Easily good to go. 
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I gotta side with Bigbore/Bravo on this. Set your sights and don't worry about it.
And for the guys asking about the range of adjustment, I have an idea. Click your sight all the way to one side, then count the clicks as you move it to the other. Divide by two, that is your range of adjutsment to either side(and your mechanical zero). C'mon, a little common sense goes a long way. I sometimes wonder what people did before the internet, it's not rocket science. I'm sure ADCO is really upset about losing the business of the "cry babies". 
OP-if it really bothers you- use a mallet. |
Above: LMT sighted in. 2 clicks to left. My Armalite rifle sights in with 5 clicks to right with carry handle sight. I installed Troy BUIS and EoTech on Armalite; 2 clicks right from mechanical zero on Troy. Below: Armalite carry handle sight, 22 clicks to left from mechanical zero for reference. Bravo Company mil spec. 22 clicks in either direction looks like shit. 
There are manufacturers who actually do build superbly aligned rifles, not by coincidence or luck. I'd rather own such rifle and leave those 22 clickers to guys who like and advocate them. |
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The easiest way to tell if the FSB is canted is to lay the rifle upside down on a flat table or counter so that its resting on the front and rear sight "ears." If one of the front sight ears is sitting up off the table a little, the FSB is canted. Wrong. There are MANY FSBs with uneven ears, and uneven towers/bases themselves. You may have a FSB that is off center, but the post(the part this is important) is indeed in the correct location. The FSB is nothing more than a gas block with a spot to hold the front sight post. When it was designed no one ever figured there would be a bunch of babies crying on the internet because it "looks" crooked.
Are you calling me a crybaby? for being curious to see if my FSB is canted? mind you watch what you say as I am sending 2 of my uppers to you have turned down. What I noticed last night asurfing the web was that it appears a canted FSB is fairly common. What I would like to know is what is an ACCEPTABLE amount of clicks for windage on the REAR sight without getting to the point where the FSB is considered Canted. As you can see in the second link I provided I use the TROY rear sight......my rear sight is off to the left a few clicks but it is in noway bottomed out. If you look at the center line on the rear sight and go over 2 lines I am in the middle of the next 2 lines.......I feel that this is more than acceptable as far as adjustment for windage......I checked out my Benelli M2 and I have the same going on, it seems that all my rear sight apps are to the left. But the question remains what is acceptable before its considerd canted......is there a certain number of clicks that is considered normal? >_< He wasn't referring to you in particular. There are lots of topics made here by people whining and complaining about their FSBs being slightly off. Then someone will tell them to lay their rifle upside down and see if it rocks on the FSB. Then Steve will come here and post that exact same post. It happens like that every time. Nice job threatening to withhold work from him. What he said was true. People do get too bent out of shape about things like slight FSB cant. If you are really that butthurt about it, go ahead and send your uppers to whatever random smith you want to. You may get back fubar'd uppers, but at least that smith didn't hurt your pride on the internet. If you want to fix your cant, take the barrel nut off and re-torque it until you can fit the gas tube through the hole. You can reattach the FSB and gas tube and drive the pins in partway to hold it. Then torque the nut until the nut is indexed with the tube dead nuts center. That should un-cant your FSB. That's what I did when building my latest upper last month. (FSB pinned to barrel by ADCO, thanks Steve) 
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The easiest way to tell if the FSB is canted is to lay the rifle upside down on a flat table or counter so that its resting on the front and rear sight "ears." If one of the front sight ears is sitting up off the table a little, the FSB is canted. Wrong. There are MANY FSBs with uneven ears, and uneven towers/bases themselves. You may have a FSB that is off center, but the post(the part this is important) is indeed in the correct location. The FSB is nothing more than a gas block with a spot to hold the front sight post. When it was designed no one ever figured there would be a bunch of babies crying on the internet because it "looks" crooked.
I know you're a good company and all, but this is a helluva way to win friends and influence people. The average Joe forks over more than a grand for a rifle that he hopes is a pretty precision-made piece of weaponry. Not perfect, but pretty damn good. Sure he's going to be disappointed if his friggin front sight is crooked. Then some bozo advertiser on the website gets all uppity and calls him a baby for asking about it. Frankly, that was totally unnecessary and really a little shitty. Maybe people will consider your snotty-ass attitude when they think about sending you some business. . . totally have to agree on that.......I was getting ready to send (2) uppers to them also to have my barrels turned down and after that comment I have been struggling on wheather or not I want to send them my money now. Your a industry partner......not the kind of thing I would expect from you guys, but I digress......so does anybody know the magic number? WERE NOT HERE TO DEBATE THE "TONE" OF ADCO'S POST, HIS INFO IS VALID, LIKE IT OR NOT. SO INSTEAD OF DRIFTING OFF TOPIC, LETS STAY ON TOPIC AND ANSWER THE OP's QUESTION. THAT SHOULD BE IT,GOT IT? Good. |
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http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m123/Bulldog257/DSCF0035LMT.jpg Above: LMT sighted in. 2 clicks to left. My Armalite rifle sights in with 5 clicks to right with carry handle sight. I installed Troy BUIS and EoTech on Armalite; 2 clicks right from mechanical zero on Troy. Below: Armalite carry handle sight, 22 clicks to left from mechanical zero for reference. United States Government (USGI) Bravo Company mil spec. 22 clicks in either direction looks like shit. http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m123/Bulldog257/DSCF0002-3A-1.jpg There are manufacturers who actually do build superbly aligned rifles, not by coincidence or luck. I'd rather own such rifle and leave those 22 clickers to guys who like and advocate them. Fixed for you. |
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In a recent Colt Armorers class, we were told a good way to check for cant. Take out the front sight post and screw in a .mil cleaning rod. It has the same threads. It makes a front post look 8 inches long. Easy to tell if its canted.
Somebody said it looked like a French site (or a good way to shoot yourself in the foot.) lol |
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In a recent Colt Armorers class, we were told a good way to check for cant. Take out the front sight post and screw in a .mil cleaning rod. It has the same threads. It makes a front post look 8 inches long. Easy to tell if its canted. Somebody said it looked like a French site (or a good way to shoot yourself in the foot.) lol That's a great trick. I'll have to remember that. |
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http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m123/Bulldog257/DSCF0035LMT.jpg Above: LMT sighted in. 2 clicks to left. My Armalite rifle sights in with 5 clicks to right with carry handle sight. I installed Troy BUIS and EoTech on Armalite; 2 clicks right from mechanical zero on Troy. Below: Armalite carry handle sight, 22 clicks to left from mechanical zero for reference. United States Government (USGI) Bravo Company mil spec. 22 clicks in either direction looks like shit. http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m123/Bulldog257/DSCF0002-3A-1.jpg There are manufacturers who actually do build superbly aligned rifles, not by coincidence or luck. I'd rather own such rifle and leave those 22 clickers to guys who like and advocate them. Fixed for you. Don't know about the fix. 22 clicks does not hold any water. According to MIL-C-70599A (AR) 3.4.6 Targeting and accuracy. If rear is set 5 clicks in either direction, 5 inch 10 shot group should fall within targeting area. Therefore, if rear is set 5 clicks to right, and rifle shoots right, the 5 inch 10 shot group still should be within targeting area. Maybe my reading comprehension is not on par. What does hive with excellent reading comprehension skills say? http://www.ar15.com/content/manuals/m4milspec.pdf |
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Richard,
You are correct, if the M4 is shooting a 5" group, you get a lot less clicks. I think we are both looking at it the same. In the example I sited I was making an assumption of a 2" group. Because the Milspecs don't list and exact click number, but instead a method of determining a acceptable zero, so when I said 22 clicks (above) it was not a hard and fast number, but actually a hot link to the explanation of a probable scenerio. The way the spec is written, the more accurate the shot groups of the M4, the more clicks of windage you get for it to be acceptable. For the example listed in the hot link (and below), I used 2" to set up an example. |
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Richard, You are correct, if the M4 is shooting a 5" group, you get a lot less clicks. I think we are both looking at it the same. In the example I sited I was making an assumption of a 2" group. Because the Milspecs don't list and exact click number, but instead a method of determining a acceptable zero, so when I said 22 clicks (above) it was not a hard and fast number, but actually a hot link to the explanation of a probable scenerio. The way the spec is written, the more accurate the shot groups of the M4, the more clicks of windage you get for it to be acceptable. For the example listed in the hot link (and below), I used 2" to set up an example. I've read that entire link. Excellent explanation. All these scenarios will lead to excessive windage adjustments. Let's assume that one shoots 2 inch 10 shot group, like all ARFCOMers do on consistent basis. 
According to spec: rear sight set at 5 clicks right; rifle pulls (shoots) right; the center of 2 inch 10 shot group must fall on 7 inch line of targeting area. To bring this group to center of target, 14 clicks left is required. Since the rear was set 5 clicks right, it will eventually end up 9 clicks left from mechanical zero. With 5 inch 10 shot group, windage adjustment would be 3 clicks less. If rear is set 5 clicks left, rifle shoots right, 7 inch line of targeting area (2 inch group), then rear aperture would end up 19 clicks left. 5 inch group, 3 clicks less ... 16 clicks. This limit of spec is met, however the other is not, and rifle is out of spec. Analogy: 1.000 +/- .002 Just because a part is less than 1.002 does not mean it's within spec. Other part of tolerance has to be met. This is my understanding of mil-spec targeting. Am I wrong? |
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Milspec for carbine is 22 clicks Sights were designed on a battle rifle approx 2-1/2" over bore. When used in the field they were never meant to be adjusted for wind (windage), they were made to adjust for a shooters zero and forgotton about. Set'em and forget'em. Survivorman, Send your stuff to Steve. When you see his quality of work, turn around, and great pricing - you will be happy you did. I have sent many a custom cut his way. Always excellent. Hope this info helps, Thanks! Paul
This is why I like to do business with you guys, very professional and sound advice as always. On another note just received a BCM BCG and it is just like the advice you give 
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