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Posted: 4/30/2009 5:39:59 PM EDT
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Well I'm the newbie, rookie, virgin, fresh meat whatever you want to call it so be gentle because I have a ton of questions and little experiance with rifles. I'm sure I just put a target on my chest with that statement, but I'm not going to pretend I know something when I don't. Most of my gun shooting and carrying have been with handguns, so rifles are a new breed for me.
With me being on this site, it's pretty easy to tell i want an AR-15. I don't want the bottom of AR world but I don't think i need a 4,000 dollar rifle either, so I'm sure their is a ton of knowlege and experiance on this site so I am open to suggestions and direction. I know the first question I will be asked is what am I going to use it for? Well I want an all around for target and for the professional field. I used to be a cop a few years ago and left after 6 years to work for a chemical company but the police bug is biting again and that is one purpose for my interest in an AR-15. Second is I love to shoot target and some hunting,,(very carefully and selectfully on the hunting part.) I come here not totally blinded by this industry. I have read up on DPMS, Bushmaster, Rock River, Colt (expensive) Smith&Wesson ( up there) and just read up on the Noveske (way up there). so My question to you guys,,,,,,,,With so many choices,,,so many similarities,,,,and operation among all almost identical,,,,,,,,,,,,,What seperates them besides price????? So far I haven't read a thing about any of them I don't like and there is nothing you can't do them or put on them,, so what gives?? I'll take cover while all of you throw everything you've go at me!!!!!!!!!! Johnny |
| Start off first with your price range. How much do have to spend on an AR? How much will you be shooting it? The nice thing about the AR industry is there are so many to pick from so you can custom tailor it to fit your needs. Keep in mind that over time you will be investing a lot more money feeding your AR than your initial AR investment, so I tend to prefer spending a little extra at the beginning for a little higher quality. You just kind of have to specify your purchasing variables first. |
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RRA or Bushmaster are fine rifles for beginners if you don't want to spend a fortune.
But if you are like most of us, the first one isn't going to satisfy you - you are going to want something better. So you might want to consider STARTING OUT with a Colt, instead of WORKING UP to one. Might save you money in the long term (over buying something besides a Colt, and then later on deciding you really want a Colt). The Colt 6520 Government Carbine is an awesome rifle, though somewhat unappreciated around these parts by some. You will NEVER regret buying a Colt. |
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In my opinion, you need the following:
Rock River Arms (or any other reputable company's) mid-length A3 upper. Quality BUIS EoTech or Aimpoint Any quality lower Any quality LPK This will give you a good, reliable, and versatile rifle for not a lot of money. If you are patient for the parts, you should be able to put the above rifle together for around $1150 or so 
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I am a noob with only 2 years exp. building ebr's and with the noob crap that i've done, it is still fresh in my memory and one suggestion is to just don't settle for parts just because they fit, research exactly what you like or why others like it, price it and save, then check around for availability... Trust me, if you take the other route, you will have a bunch of chinese ar parts that are going to break or not fit well and you will end up on the ee selling them for 1/4 of what you paid ! This goes for optic's also.
My next suggestion is to sign up as a paid member. why, because the money you will save with all the great deals and codes that only paid members get, will pay for your membership x5. |
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Fist of all, welcome to ar15.com!!! Most guys in here will be happy to answer any of your questions. I am mostly a Shotgun kind of guy, but I have some knowledge of the ARs
I posted a thread much like this a few months ago... This is what I came up with... DISCLAIMER: Some of this is information that I have been told by people in this forum and have accumulated knowledge about these brands from such information... Don't crucify me if I "diss" on your favorite brand... Rifles: DPMS Panther Arms sucks - A bunch of bad news from that company Smith and Wesson is awesome - High end good quality gun Rock River is awesome - Good quality gun Stag is awesome - Good quality gun at a good price Olympic is CRAP - No real good news about these guys Stag Model 1 is what I have chosen to go with when I get my AR sometime in the near future. Make sure that the barrel and chamber is chrome lined. A pencil barrel isn't as good as the one that you will see on that Stag M-1 (don't know the technical term for it). It gets too hot too fast. ..... Magazines: Go with MagPul P-Mags. They are hard to find as well as any other good AR mag. The USGI ones are ok, but you would want to replace the spring and follower with MagPul parts. .... Optics: Don't go cheap. You will regret it... Eotech is the top of the line, but there are some others that will do fine. Lasers are a waste of time. Don't get one. Yes, they are Tacticool but don't count your life on them. If you just want to have one on there to look cool and to mess around at the range, then get one. ... Ammo: The Wolf ammo is cheep but can suck depending on which ones you get. Stay away from the casings that have a shiny/lacquer vainer look to them. If they have a mat/dull looking finish, then they will be good for your AR. Shop around online to get familiar with what the brands and prices are. Pretty much anything in stock is good at this point. ... Grips: LaRue tactical are expensive, but will last. If its 20 bucks, its probably crap. (usually made by Leapers or UTG... This is cheap Airsoft crap) ... Rails: Samson makes a good rail. This one is available through the Stag website at the cheapest price I have seen. ... Carry: If you are looking for a way to carry your mags and your rifle, the most cost effective thing is to get USGI surplus stuff. This is really cheap but great quality. Again, shop around to get an idea on what the prices are. You can get good stuff on Ebay for low prices. Make sure that you see the label on it saying something about Specialty Defense Systems (SDS). That is the stuff you want. Slings are pretty much all the same. Go with a cheap or mid grade one to see if you like that sling configuration. A lot of guys will love the single point sling idea, but end up hating it after a while of carrying it and then switch to a two or three point. Stay away from Condor Tactical or VooDoo Tactical. This stuff is cost effective to see if you like a certain setup, but I wouldn't take it farther than that. Pretty much its Airsoft stuff and not suitable for duty. ... Edit: Light: Go expensive or go cheap. Its up to you. If you plan on doing military or swat team work then go big bucks. If this will be used for plinking and two legged deer that invade your home, then a $30-$80 light will work just fine. I, and many others, highly recommend at a minimum a light added to your AR. ... Any other questions please ask!! I will check back every day to see if you need any more help. |
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There are a lot of good optics options before spending the money on an Eotech or aimpoint. For similar functionality check out the Nikon Monarchs. They're probably not up to extended combat environments but for anything else... I'll get flamed for it, but I've been hearing mixed results from the Eotechs. Folks LOVE them, but I've also heard some reliability concerns recently that cut them down a notch for that job. Still top flight stuff in their category, but not so overwhelmingly perfect like their reputation implies. Other, more target oriented options for non shotgun ranges are standard scopes from the usual suspects. I put a burris 4-12 on my M&P15 because it's meant as a range gun for now. As a past LEO I'm sure you're familiar with shotguns versus rifles in terms of preferred engagement ranges. I'm of the opinion that for most non entry, non military purposes a properly scoped AR makes more sense than a dot system. There are exceptions, particularly 3 gun and such, but generally speaking, if ranges are going to be close enough the scope is at a disadvantage you should be holding a 12ga instead. More stopping power close in.
The main differences brand to brand seem to be quality of fit and finish, and what extras come included. Those little details that make the difference between a functional weapon and a nice one. My advice is to figure out what you want to put ON the gun in terms of aiming device(s), lights, handgrips, slings.... then figure out who makes the best match out of the box within your budget for the rifle. You can modify almost anything to match your needs, but make sure you factor in the cost if you plan to make changes to things like the handguards or stock right off the bat on one model and could get the setup you want on another brand. Of course, another issue these days is what's available and how long you're willing to wait. A lot of folks are buying on the theory that close is ok if it's in the hand, they'll modify it later to be exactly what they want but at least they've got something now. Oh, last item, go 5.56 or wylde, not 223. There's nothing wrong with 223 for the target shooting and hunting, but the other two let you shoot 223 as well, at a minor if any loss in accuracy in the real world. That way if you do get back into law enforcement you can shoot any ammo issued without concern for it being overpressure in your rifle. Not to mention taking advantage of whatever 5.56/223 is on sale any given moment when shopping for yourself. I'm sure lots of folks will argue with my first paragraph, that's cool, it'll give you all the various points of view and reasons and theories. The main thing is to figure out what suits YOU. Go handle a bunch at the shops, even if it's owned by one of the folks there. Try out different options and setups and see what you prefer. Think about how you'll use it and work from there. A duty gun being banged around daily is going to be setup differently from a range oriented gun treated nicely most of the time. |
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RRA or Bushmaster are fine rifles for beginners if you don't want to spend a fortune. But if you are like most of us, the first one isn't going to satisfy you - you are going to want something better. So you might want to consider STARTING OUT with a Colt, instead of WORKING UP to one. Might save you money in the long term (over buying something besides a Colt, and then later on deciding you really want a Colt). The Colt 6520 Government Carbine is an awesome rifle, though somewhat unappreciated around these parts by some. You will NEVER regret buying a Colt. +1 This is the same advice I gave a young friend who was going to buy his first AR. He saved a little extra money and bought a 6721, and has never looked back. FWIW, I personally would not be concerning myself at this point with optics, aftermarket grips, etc., etc. Buy a quality rifle, and spend your extra cash on ammo and training. After you are intimately familiar with the stock rifle, YOU can decide what, if any, upgrade she needs. Welcome aboard! |
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I would chime in on buying an upper-end rifle from the start. Colt is the gold standard, but S&W is also a good choice, since it has most of the same bells and whistles. Examples - chrome-lined bore and chamber, good staking, proper extractor spring and O-ring, proper buffer, etc.
Unlike others, I would not advise getting into AR's by building your first one. There are pitfalls to that, and it's not the way to learn IMO. After all, you can learn about heights by jumping off your roof, but that's not advisable either, so buy a complete rifle. You can always build your own later. Get a flattop. The models with fixed carry handles are cheaper, but limit your choices on optics and other accessories are limited. Back to earlier advice, Colt 6920's or S&W M&P's with be flattops. Don't blow your 401-k on optics. Many here will steer you to $1,500 - $2,500 scopes, reflexes and ACOG's, but I personally think that's crazy for the average person. Yeah, you can stick out your chest, walk tall, impress your friends, etc., but you can get good-quality scopes for under $250 that will serve you admirably. I personally like the Millett DMS-1, but get what fits your own needs. If you end up in SWAT or tactical LE, you'll probably get an issue rifle and/or a weapon allowance anyway, so this rifle is your fun gun. Don't spend so much on it you're afraid to take it out of the safe for fear of hurting it. Get lots of ammo, and a good supply of quality mags. Shoot the heck out of it and have fun. (Disclaimer - the foregoing is my opinion only, and others might disagree. That's okay ... this is America and we have that right. At least for now.) . . |
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I'm not exatly sure of the response I'm going to get our of the rest of the community from this one, but here goes.
Since you are new at rifles, and enjoy target shooting, spend a couple of months with just the irons. Your rifle will more then likely include a set of them and, it is one less initial investment you will have to make. If you can truly master your irons, it will perfect all the essentials of firing rifles accurately and the characteristics of your firearm and in the end I think you will find that, if you choose to get optics, your skills will be far exceed your expectations. (nice run on) I simply do not see enough people these days practicing with their irons, even the military is beginning to sway away from them now. Let me be the first to tell you that you do not need optics to hit a man sized target with a 5.56 at 500 yards. They certainly help, but I can remember the first time I switched to an optic, I found myself not enjoying shooting as much because I wasn’t challenged enough. All that said, I personally have always owned and operated a Colt(although it was all I was ever issued). And as some have said, I have never been upset with it. But, I got an amazing deal on my current rifle and had that not happened, I’ll bet I would have found myself buying something a bit cheaper. I don’t think you would at all be upset with a rock river. As much chatter as there is about all the different brands, hardly anyone will roll their eyes at a RRA. It is a reasonable price, and an above average product for said price and people respect that. Welcome, and best of luck. |
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Let me be the first to tell you that you do not need optics to hit a man sized target with a 5.56 at 500 yards. Not to derail the thread, and not to question your abilities, but I hear this kind of thing from time to time and it continues to amaze me. At 500 yards, most of us can't even SEE a man-sized target, much less hit it with iron sights. 500 yards - just as a reminder - is 5 football fields in length, or well over a quarter mile. Assuming you can successfully crank up the elevation on your irons, or know exactly how much to hold over, to compensate for the foot or two of bullet drop (and then estimate where your tiny target is, since it's now obscured by your front sight), this might be possible. But it takes a far better than average shooter to pull this one off. Are you saying you can do it? I'd like to see that. 
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Let me be the first to tell you that you do not need optics to hit a man sized target with a 5.56 at 500 yards. Not to derail the thread, and not to question your abilities, but I hear this kind of thing from time to time and it continues to amaze me. At 500 yards, most of us can't even SEE a man-sized target, much less hit it with iron sights. 500 yards - just as a reminder - is 5 football fields in length, or well over a quarter mile. Assuming you can successfully crank up the elevation on your irons, or know exactly how much to hold over, to compensate for the foot or two of bullet drop (and then estimate where your tiny target is, since it's now obscured by your front sight), this might be possible. But it takes a far better than average shooter to pull this one off. Are you saying you can do it? I'd like to see that.
. . With all due respect, in the Marines this is part of our yearly requirement...except at 500m..... not yards. I personally have never hit less then 7/10 at the 500 ...all without the aid of a table or sandbags. The way shooting should be done. This illustrates my point perfectly. People have no confidence in their irons and don't even know what the 3/8 on their elevation knob means. Sir, I assure you it is possible with the correct form and knowledge. I will take your comment as an 'above average shooter' as a compliment however, in the Marines....... it is a requirement. |
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Are you saying you can do it? I'd like to see that.
Also, I noticed your from Texas, the Tiger Valley open shoot is this weekend. I will be more then happy to coach you on the 500m line and, if you are willing to listen and learn.... you can see yourself do it.
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There's a ton of brand loyalty here as you can see above. Rather than talk brands, I'd suggest that you consider the differences in basic configurations. The 3 basic configurations are; Carbine, Middy, and Rifle. These refer to the gas operating systems, not the barrel lengths, however, 16" carbines usually have either the carbine or middy gas system and the 20" rifles usually have a rifle length gas system. You need to decide what type of shooter you want and then get a rifle that suits your needs. |
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Are you saying you can do it? I'd like to see that.
Also, I noticed your from Texas, the Tiger Valley open shoot is this weekend. I will be more then happy to coach you on the 500m line and, if you are willing to listen and learn.... you can see yourself do it. I'll have to take your word for it, and just say good shootin'. By the way, when I was in the Corps ('way back in the ugly 60's), we didn't shoot 500 meters.Those damn jungles were too dense to worry about ranges like that. I saw a post awhile back where a guy claimed 1/2 MOA 5-shot groups at 300 yds with irons, and I had to really call BS on that one. There are limits. 
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