AR Sponsor
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Gas piston systems? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 9/12/2008 6:31:22 PM EDT
| I'm thinking of converting to a gas piston system, any thoughts on that idea (good or bad)? Also it seems like more companies are making these systems now. Are there more or is it just my imagination, and who makes a good conversion kit or should I just buy a whole upper? Thanks a lot! |
|
Is there something wrong with your current carbine or do you have spare cash that is burning a hole in your pocket? I think that once you convert your upper, it should stay converted. The ARES/Bushy is a nice toy. The OPS-416 is vaporware so far. As far as good conversions, look at PWS and Adams Arms. |
Right now people can find all the needed Std.AR parts they need from many places in their towns and online at really good prices. That same thing can't be said for the piston ARs. I am not implying the piston AR are a bad idea just posting the facts as they stand today. 
|
Converting from what ... or, converting onto what ? Also, what is the "end result" configuration you have in mind ? REVISED
What are you currently using in terms of Quality Ammo and Quality Mags ? Also, what is your maintenance and cleaning routine ? |
so the time you save cleaning the receiver, you'll spend cleaning the piston/block and parts. You'll spend just as much time cleaning, just cleaning different parts. |
|
I wouldnt convert a perfectly good DI system for the hell of it...i do suggest you save up some cash and go for a POF upper or a LWRC [never have one but thought id be objective =] ] i like both systems and dont perfer one over the other....the piston system is alot easier to clean on my rifle but then again mine is a POF and is coated so all that needs to be done is wipe it down with a patch and away I go...the chamber is very easy to clean with a piston system and doesnt require much at all.. the DI system is said to be more accurate but I dont see it with my rifles, i dont have any malfunctions with my DI system and wouldnt convert it for anything but its nice having the piston system around =] |
|
I converted one of my carbines to the ARES system a while back. Not because I needed to, but just for the hell of it. Gee, what's $399 ????? It really does function nicely and is easier to clean. I noticed no degradation in accuracy. IMHO, the original DI gas system works just fine. 
|
Looks like a very nice system. 
|
|
I have to ask... in what way does the DI system make the rifle less reliable? Where does the gas go? Most goes out of the two tiny ports on the side of the bolt carrier, and straight out the ejection port. A little goes out around the tail of the bolt. The gas rings prevent any of that gas from going forward around the bolt lugs. All of the grime around the lugs and inside the barrel extension comes from the barrel and chamber... the gas that blows back following the ejected brass. The particles that blow back into the lower receiver end up scattered around the fire control group, and really do no harm there. There is really no more powder residue remaining in the receiver of an AR-15 than there is in a Mini-14, or any number of other "gas piston" rifles. So the interior of the bolt carrier is cleaner, but so what? In what way does that make the rifle less reliable? As far as the OP's statement that his rifle malfunctions unless he keeps it perfectly clean, I would have to counter that there is something wrong there... bad choice of ammo or some other problem. AFM |
You mean your AK didn't come with a piston??? You got ripped off.
Yeah huh? To the OP: Unless you are running an SBR and/or a suppressor, you don't need a piston. If you decide you want one anyway you should be looking at complete uppers too, not just the conversion kits. If you can afford it - keep your DI upper and buy a complete gas piston upper. I guess what I am saying is, GET BOTH. |
|
I don't know the manufacturer of my upper since I can't find any markings but it's a 14.5 M4, the upper doesn't have feed ramps but it has a carbine barrel extension. Could that have something to do with the jams? I thought it may have been the extractor but it appears to be working properly. The only thing I was wanting to change about the current set up is changing to a flat-top and a free float tube. Ammo and mags: I stopped using Wolf a while back, thinking maybe that was causing some problems, and started using store bought brands (since I only shoot 100-200 rds at a time) i.e. Winchester or Remington. And I usually use G.I. mags. Cleaning routine: I clean to the best of my ability after every time at the range. Meaning barrel, chamber, and disassemble and clean the carrier. |
|
So you are saying that you have a rifle upper with a barrel that has a M-4 barrel extension. Is this correct? If this is the case you should be ok. Looked at your postings from last year, I would not think your extractor is an issue. Specifically, what sort of malfunctions are you getting with your carbine? Have you read through the Troubleshooting and Maintenance forums? |
I agree too! Mine was $400 compared to a $12 gas tube though. www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=380245 |
Yeah I guess I do have a rifle upper with an M4 barrel and extension. You can see 1 or 2 places on the upper near the barrel extension where it looks like a couple rounds maybe misfed and "dented" it. Usually it won't extract the shell after it's fired so it tries to load a round with a spent shell in the chamber which is why I thought maybe extractor. Most of the time it will do that after about 30 - 50 rounds, I guess when it starts to heat up? I looked though the forums a while back but didn't see anything that helped and I think I even posted a thread about the problem to get some advice and the advice was to clean it, which I do (at least I think so). I figured if the piston system meant less time cleaning it then I wouldn't think twice about bringing it to the range just because it took so long to clean afterwards. Thanks! |
To be quite honest with you, I hardly ever clean my ARs, and have rifles that have never malfunctioned, not once, even during break in. Sounds like you have issues with the BCG, as you said, the extractor. Have you tried the extractor upgrade? |
Based on your, better, explanation, it sounds like you have a blue extractor insert and need to spend the $5.00 for an extractor upgrade. Here: BCM EXTRACTOR SYSTEM UPGRADE KIT |
|
IMHO piston "conversions" are a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. All stock AR type rifles come from the factory with pistons allready installed I.E. the bolt and its nifty gas rings. the bolt carrier is the cylinder. just add gas to make the fun happen. my2 cents worth, |
|
Unless you are having issues (which likely aren't attributed to the current gas tube design anyway) or just have money burning a hole in your pocket, your money would be better spent elsewhere on your weapon. Make sure your mags are within spec, keep your BCG lubed, and just shoot the hell out of it. You'll likely go through thousands of rounds before you ever have a problem. Don't get me wrong, I don't fault anyone for modding the AR platform since there are a ton of aftermarket parts out there available, but there is a such thing as going overboard. Don't fix what ain't broke. |
I was wrong about the upper and the extension, I haven't looked at it in so long I forgot which combo I had but here's a pic. You can see the ding I was talking about below the left feed ramp. And yes, I do have the blue extractor plug, as soon as I get finished typing this reply I'm ordering the upgrade. Is there any other simple things like that I should order along with the extractor upgrade? Is there anywhere that I can get the upgrade kit along with a hammer & selector switch to keep from paying shipping from 2 places? Thanks a lot guys! |
| What a bummer that would have been had you bought the $400+ piston system, expecting the best, and still had the same malf. I admit, I found this thread trying to answer the piston question for myself, and I've found some excellent answers. Thanks all, great community here. |
I suspect that Paul at Bravo Company will have everything you need. |
|
First, check to make sure your extractor claw is sharp and clear of debris. If it is not, there is your problem. If you are having systemic extraction problems with an otherwise good extractor, you might have a rough chamber. I have seen that happen on several rifles lately. With the amount of AR-15 barrels being cranked out right now due to high demand, not every manufacturer is taking their sweet ass time to ream a nice smooth chamber. Wrap a bore brush in cotton cloth and apply some abrasive compound to it, valve grinding compound, diamond paste, aluminum oxide paste, or something similar. spin the cloth at a low speed with a hand drill until the chamber is polished. You dont want to take off any measurable metal, just knock off the asperities. You want to polish the walls of the chamber, not the throat or barrel. Dont jam it in too far. When you are done, wash out the barrel with soap and water thoroughly and clean with your favorite bore cleaner and patch dry. If you still have extraction issues after this your extractor spring and insert should be replaced, but even with a weak extractor your rifle should easily extract brass cases under normal firing conditions. You can go too far with this, if your chamber is mirror smooth, your brass life will be reduced as it will stretch a lot. If you dont reload no biggie. Also, who made your barrel? |
That is a photo of a rifle upper with a rifle barrel extension. Should be GTG. You might want to upgrade your magazines though. You can add a three pack of MagPul Magazine Followers to the BCM extractor upgrade. What is wrong with your hammer and selector switch that you need a new one? |
|
Is this your only AR? If not, I would say that getting a gas piston gun is a good idea. I like the new LMT that just came out. But I wouln't just have a piston AR only. I would say to leave your current configuration alone and buy a completly new rifle configured in piston form if the extra money is no bother. The Direct Impingement AR is a battle tested and proven design. Someone posted earlier about parts being readily available for the DI guns which is something to think about. If ain't broke, don't fix it. The DI design works. I am going to get that new LMT pison upper. But only because I have muliple LMT DI guns. |
|
I have a Bushmaster M4, on which I just installed the Bushmaster gas piston kit. Removing the gas tube was an absolute pain in the ass. I had to cut the tube in half. The section in the receiver came out easily. The section in the front sight base would not come out. I had to stand the rifle upright on my bench. I bent the tube at a 90 degree angle, grabbed the bend with a pair of vise grip pliers, and beat the pliers with a hammer until the tube came out. The rest of the installation was not a problem. When I test fired the rifle, I had 2 failures to feed, as the parts just nneded to settle in. After that, I fired 200+ rounds of Wolf ammo with no problems. The hand guards are larger in diameter than the originals. The bottom half has a double heat shield. When I rapid fired a mag, the hand guard did not get hot, but the barrel was smoking. The bolt never got warm, of course. My EOtech and flip up rear sight fit on the receiver, as the hand guards barely clear the EOtech. A number of manufacturers have gone to the piston system, so I thought that there must be something to it. It is much easier to clean, but I will have to wait to see about the durability issue and how often I need to clean the piston. Just my 2 cents. |
|
I have a Bushmaster M4, on which I just installed the Bushmaster gas piston kit. Removing the gas tube was an absolute pain in the ass. I had to cut the tube in half. The section in the receiver came out easily. The section in the front sight base would not come out. I had to stand the rifle upright on my bench. I bent the tube at a 90 degree angle, grabbed the bend with a pair of vise grip pliers, and beat the pliers with a hammer until the tube came out. The rest of the installation was not a problem. When I test fired the rifle, I had 2 failures to feed, as the parts just nneded to settle in. After that, I fired 200+ rounds of Wolf ammo with no problems. The hand guards are larger in diameter than the originals. The bottom half has a double heat shield. When I rapid fired a mag, the hand guard did not get hot, but the barrel was smoking. The bolt never got warm, of course. My EOtech and flip up rear sight fit on the receiver, as the hand guards barely clear the EOtech. A number of manufacturers have gone to the piston system, so I thought that there must be something to it. It is much easier to clean, but I will have to wait to see about the durability issue and how often I need to clean the piston. Just my 2 cents. |
| you know it is funny that I haven't cleaned my DI AR in 200 rnds but since I keep it lubrucated and keep the dust cover shut when I don't use it the thing works just fine and have only seen two stops since I last cleaned it and that was due to bad crimps on the rounds not a dirty gun |
Did you have any problems with the upper before the installation? |
i had that exact problem, i after having extraction issues i could not figure out, i took the extractor apart and and examined closely and found a small piece of metal shaving. removed, lubed and has worked fine since. this was on a new rifle! fun to get the bugs out... |
|
Are there any new firearm designs using the DI system? Say 1995 to 2008. I'm asking because I don't have the answer. Also If there are not any using the DI system why are all the gun manufacturers going to a piston system. Do you think its just a marketing ploy or could a piston system really be better.... OOOPS I said it. As far as price goes the ACR and scar are reportedly going to be had in the 1500-2000 range depending on who you ask. Common AR upper=650 lower=350 BUIS=140 $500 piston system=500 Total=1640 It seems that the price is on par if not lower than the new/updated technology being produced right now. Do you really feel that the human race has not made any weapon advances since the 1950's design. I love my AR don't get me wrong but look at the facts. ALL modern combat rifles are using a piston system of some kind..... Why wouldn't It benefit someone to use it on the AR platform. Give me a negative besides cost and the 5oz more in weight. ETA: and carrier tilt 
|
LMT or BCM upper: 590 Lower with a good stock: 270 BUIS: 100 Total: 960 A perfectly reliable weapon. I have a piston upper. It's heavier, recoils more, causes damage to the RET, more expensive, less accurate, and exactly as reliable as all of my DI ARs. See the previous page, at the bottom, for my piston review. |
I'm not picking on you I would just like to know how people measure reliability... is it a trip or two a week with 2 or 300 rounds down the barrel between cleaning? Is it an entire class where you may fire 2000 rounds without cleaning. Is it full auto abuse for 1000's of rounds at a time. Do you judge reliability in a sand storm or a blizzard. My point is this, there are people that test there weapons to the extreme, our armed forces. My question is again, if there is absolutely nothing wrong with a DI system then why are the future weapons being developed and offered to our brave men and women of the armed forces all piston systems and not DI? If there is no advantage to a piston then why the dramatic change.
What manufacturer
How much heavier. Have you compared it to a comparable AR?
How much more? does it feel like a 308 now? Is that really a big deal. Are you no longer able to hit your target.
Than a standard AR, yes. But my AR cost more than my 10/22. Not comparing the two, just making a point that cost is relative to what you are getting.
Where is the proof? Is it possible that an Olympic AR is less accurate than a Colt? Have you personally evaluated the accuracy of all the piston systems and rifle manufacturers out there and have thus come to this conclusion. If a piston gun is less accurate, heavier, too expensive and adds no reliability to a already perfect design, then why all the hype on the ACR? Are you guys telling me that you are going to pay more money for a less accurate, heavier weapon that uses a piston system that is over rated and not at all better than the superior DI system. I am not LE/Mil, I don't shoot 2000 rounds a week. I also do not know what the future holds and some people, myself included like to have the BEST possible design/combination of parts if our guns that may one day be depended on to save our lives. Like another poster said, this is the next evolution of the AR and of the future(near at least) design of combat weapons. |
I run my guns as hard as I ran my issued M4, which, by the way, never failed me in 11 months in Iraq.
Ares. All of this information is in the review I referenced.
Not as heavy as I thought it would be, but heavier than it was before I converted it. The biggest problem is that it necessitated a change to a rail system which could clear the piston, which was not as light as the rail system I used before the piston system was added. All of this information is in the review I referenced.
Recoil impulse is sharper and yes, target acquisition/follow up shots are more diffcult. All of this information is in the review I referenced.
$400 more and not a bit of extra performance. All of this information is in the review I referenced.
Before conversion, the rifle shot 1.5 MOA. After, it shot 2.5-3 MOA. With the same batch of M855. All of this information is in the review I referenced.
Because the ACR is not an AR and trying to make an AR a piston gun and do it PROPERLY requires more work than most manufacturers are willing to perform. The "BEST possible design/combination of parts" for a 16" carbine or midlength AR-15 includes a gas tube. For a shorter weapon, or one that is suppressed, a piston is a good idea. Like I said, I posted a review on the previous page, it is quite extensive and you might find it interesting. It comes from the point of view of a person who IS .mil and DOES shoot quite a lot. ...All of this information is in the review I referenced. |
I read your review and I also want to thank you for your service to this country. I like many others try and read all the info on a product and reviews before making any purchase. I appreciate this was your experiance with the ARES kit. To say that ALL piston conversions are less accurate, inferior to DI ect ect ect based on one experiance with one company isnt enough for me. I would like to see a torture test with the leading conversion systems and some DI guns. AS far as the ACR, I understand its not an AR but uses many common parts as well as barrel and is a piston. And just from looking at pictures it seems to shares the same piston geometry as an AR. I understand the BCG and bolt are new designs. That being said the government dust test showed even the HK 416 to have reliability improvements over the DI system. To me the HK 416 is a piston conversion of sorts. I agree a piston is not a nessesity, but IMHO either is a dot sight..... As far as recoil, is it something that cannot be adjusted to. Will someone never be able to perform as quickly with a piston as with a DI gun? |
Unfortunately, many others have the same experience I did. LWRC piston guns, and to a lesser extent, POF piston guns, seem to do very well. Other piston ARs have their fair share of issues. Molon did a writeup on the ARES kit that way overshadowed mine, there was a slight loss of accuracy. Some early LWRC guns had horrendous accuracy issues, but those problems have largely gone away. The ACR has been completely redesigned as a piston gun, yeah, the barrel is the same, but all the little things that sometimes cause big problems in piston ARs have hopefully been addressed in the ACR. I reiterate my opinion (and many who have far more experience than I express similar views) that for a carbine or a rifle, unsuppressed, a piston system is unnecessary. SBRs, especially suppressed ones, benefit greatly. I can't remember the exact quote, or who said it, but it goes like this: "A truly great engineer knows his work is done not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Is it possible that no more direct impingement rifles are in the development pipeline because, from a design standpoint, the AR-15 is as close to perfection (for a DI gun) as you are going to find? That it is so prolific that any replacement would have an impossible hill to climb in overcoming it? As for recoil, you could deal with it, but the same guy running the same stage in a 3 gun match would have slightly better split times with the DI than with the piston, assuming all else is equal. Bang..bang rather than bang...bang. |
Thank you for playing along and not getting nasty. Im sure that when night falls I will have created a shit storm
|
| Will there ever be an end to these DI vs. Piston arguments? DI minds (for many) seem resistant to any change, and will not be swayed. Piston enthusiasts cannot accept that some DI are just not interested in the piston system. they don't see any advantage or reason. To each his own. If you have the money, and want a piston, buy it. My piston rifles are great. And clean. And more expensive. You can also buy an equally outstanding DI rifle. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Gas piston systems? (Page 1 of 2)
AR Sponsor