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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - SHTF safe queen (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 5/27/2008 5:05:02 PM EDT
| I have 1500 to spend and I am looking for advice. I am looking to purchase an AR for a Katrina/civil order breakdown situation. The rifle will sit in the safe at all other times. I am familiar with the AR from my Army days-25 years ago. I won't ever be putting many (if any) rounds through it. If I ever need it, I want it to be absolutely reliable. I wont need optics. I anticipate using it at 25 yards or less-I live in suburban environment. Any suggestions as to manufacturer and model will be most appreciated. |
Some philosophical flaws from what I see. 1. I would have a hard time relying on a rifle I never fired. I wouldn't believe it was uterly reliable until running a substantial amount of ammo through it. 2. Marksmanship and the manual of arms are perishable skills. Rock River makes a solid rifle, as does Stag, and of course, Colt and Armalite are still the upper tier. |
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+1 take some of the money and use the gun, break it in.. make sure it is zeroed.. then stock up on mags, extra parts and ammo.. |
| Colt would be best for you, in particular the 6520 gov't carbine (A2 sights, superlight barrel) but any LE model will do. Colt is the most likely to run right out of the box, and if you are going to keep a low round count/safe queen the Colt will hold its value very nicely. Should be about 1200-1300 if you get it from the right place. |
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+1 on putting some rounds through it before considering it "reliable". Your wife not liking guns is NOT a reason to not shoot. Honestly man, WTF! Anyways, for $1500, get an LMT (buy the upper and lower separately to save a little cash), then use the rest on some mags and ammo  .
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You need to explain to your wife that it's not much good without proper practice. I realize that this could backfire on you, but if you have a weapon and can't use it, you're just providing for the bad guy. |
Send the wife on a weekend with her friends or a vacation to see her mother and get some range time. Otherwise you will not even know if the sights are correct or if it functions. You cannot even begin to imagine the "Oh S__t" when you need it and it only goes click. |
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BUY 1000 rounds, and around half of that. With the rest - you can go with a Colt Carbine, or cobble yourself one together (LMT rifle in halves w/ MPI Bolt, or get a STAG Lower, STAG #2T, and replace the bolt with a BCM one. You'd need to at least zero it, and live function test each magazine, so that's a few hundred rounds you should go though to build confidence in your weapon system. LOTS of options - decide if you 'need' optics, flashlight, and a rail system, as that wil factor it. For a SHTF rifle, I'd say a flashlight makes a lot of sense, and an aimpoint will be worth adding too, so consider those on the expense list. |
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1.so your allowed to own a gun but not shoot it!? Is your wife also fundamentally opposed to baseball bats? WTF!? 2. 25 yds or less - i'd buy a shotgun! rem870 or mossberg 500/590. actually if you have 1k plus - buy a tromix/saiga 12. Ak action/reliability and the firepower of a 12ga. ar-15 would be the last gun i'd buy for 25 yds or less - m16 would be good but semi? For close range you want power and speed - trajectory is null and void. Get an ak even. maybe a handgun. If i missed something let me know. Why did you choose to purchase the ar-15 for this situation as for ak setup - you can get used to it in a week of "playing" with it. Seriously if you want this to be a self defense gun you better convince your wife you both need practice. Its easier to convert people than you think. (not tryin to be an ass - just dont want yo making the wrong choice) |
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I'm not even going to touch on the whole lack of shooting issue. There are only two answers for your query on which AR to get: Colt (6520 or 6920) OR an LMT flavored M4 (barrel length of your preference). Anyone who says I'm drinking kool-aid is just making up for the fact that there's a high probability that their weapon is inferior to the ones I've mentioned. |
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Given the use, and allowing the practice to be at least moderately proficient, I think I'd put the cash into a Glock 21 and a Winchester 94... (old style, without the stupid safety.) What ever you get, learn how to use it. Buying a violin doesn't get you a chair in the symphony.  ETA: Re-thought, and at 50 yards or less I think I'd take a tactical 870 over the 94. In any event the .45 will get it done, the long guns are just in case. |
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There are several quality AR15s on the market; Colt, LMT, and Bushmaster just to name a few, however I would have to agree with most everyone else here. If your rifle is going to be for the defense you and your family you need to be comfortable and familiar with whatever rifle you end up with. Some range time, in my opinion, is a must. Oh, and by the way hope you never need to use it for what you are buying it for. |
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Seriously, some of the replies are good here. You don't want an AR for home defense if it's your only weapon. I guess if *I* had $1500 to spend on a home defense weapon, and wasn't going to have much practice with it because the ole lady said "No", I'd go grab a Benelli M4 ($1080 at Cabellas), a good light to put on it, and possibly a used EOTech. Take a couple boxes of slugs to sight in the EOTech and then load it up with 000 Buck. EOTech would make for a VERY quick sight picture using both eyes open, and the flashlight makes sure you identify your target. Lastly 000 buck from a 12ga is like being hit with 10 AR rounds at once, then you have another 6 shells in the tube to follow it up with. Much more effective than an AR (for your role), has as much (if not more) "cool" factor since it's the exact same weapon our boys are using in Iraq and Afganistan right now, and is easier to become proficiant on (so not as much range time is required). Oh, and unlike a cheaper AR that hasn't been broken in with a few thousand rounds....you never have to worry about the Benneli going "click" when you want it to go "boom". That dual gas self cleaning piston design is rock solid reliable. |
sounds like you might not need a rifle. nor do you need one that you gotta put alot of rounds through to be sure of. maybe two glocks with lights? (or whatever sidearm you used in the service, but you still NEED to put a few rounds through them). from what i read about Katrina, they were disarming people. and an AR is a bit hard to hide. you could throw the glocks in your cargo shorts and no-one would know. they might not scare the wifey as much either. put one in the safe and one in the BOB. |
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Benelli, or other flavor pellet spreader. Possibly a new wife too. At least a mistress that shoots. My main goto gun for the house and neighbors is an 870 that was the plain vanilla HD gun. Colonial Arms reamed and threaded for tubes and I stuffed a Wilson mag extension on it instead of the high dollar rem unit it came with. BTW you want some constriction in a HD gun too. At 5 yards it'll look like you shot them with a baseball no matter if it is a cylinder bore or full choke. At 20 yards it is totally different.
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You must have married a liberal from Chicago. I sympathize. |
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some of you are putting the cart before the horse. LISTEN TO THE MAN!!! He needs to go buy it, come home and stash it and be done with it. dont bury him with stupid ass ideas like piecing one together, or buying a noveske, or get a stag lower and a superduperfied upper and blah blah blah. If LMT sold a complete rifle he could buy and stash then yes, that would be my first choice but goddamn, adivsing to get a new wife. doesnt help him. the Colt 6520 is the clear choice here. its better than RRA, and its available over the counter, he can buy it, stash it and feel secure knowing it will work when he needs it. a man in his position cannot be expected to go through the hassle of getting a dealer to transfer an LMT lower, then mail ordering the upper etc etc. it sounds like our man needs to be discreet. If i had to buy a rifle and possibly fight with it the next day i would buy a Colt or an LMT, if i had to be sneaky like this guy i would get a Colt. Cahs/Carry/Stash no fuss no muss. |
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some of you are putting the cart before the horse. LISTEN TO THE MAN!!! He needs to go buy it, come home and stash it and be done with it. dont bury him with stupid ass ideas like piecing one together, or buying a noveske, or get a stag lower and a superduperfied upper and blah blah blah. If LMT sold a complete rifle he could buy and stash then yes, that would be my first choice but goddamn, adivsing to get a new wife. doesnt help him. the Colt 6520 is the clear choice here. its better than RRA, and its available over the counter, he can buy it, stash it and feel secure knowing it will work when he needs it. a man in his position cannot be expected to go through the hassle of getting a dealer to transfer an LMT lower, then mail ordering the upper etc etc. it sounds like our man needs to be discrete If i had to buy a rifle and possibly fight with it the next day i would buy a Colt or an LMT, if i had to be sneaky like this guy i would get a Colt. Cahs/Carry/Stash no fuss no muss. |
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It sounds to me like the OP is not planning on telling his wife he bought the gun, He wants to buy it and stash it just in case he needs it. His wife will be less pissed off if things get really bad and she starts to think that maybe she was wrong all these years, and once that happens he comes out of the basement with his AR to protect the family. I would go with a few of the brands a lot of these guys mentioned, like Rock River, Stag, Colt, and yes even Bushmaster (I have owned one for years and put 10k+ through her without a hickup) But for one you only plan to pull out in the event of an emergency and at shorter ranges I would stay away from the truly custom ones like Noveskie, LMT, ect. Just my two cents. |
What on earth is custom about an LMT? That's actually what I would suggest given his criteria: A complete LMT or Colt. But really, any of the brands mentioned would be just fine. |
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I have to agree whole heartedly with the notion that almost ANY gun you get, you MUST get some range time and put min. 500rds through it to break in your mags and know that it is reliable! That being said, I also second the idea of either a pair of glock 21's or a Benelli semi shotgun since at 25yds or less an AR is not the most effective weapon. |
I would agree, take it out and run a few hundred rounds through it. Chances are if you're going to have any problems with an AK you'll find 'em pretty quick. Nothing else is gonna keep on going like an AK. That, and ammo's cheaper. ETA: 1500 can get you the gun, around 3000 rounds of ammo, and maybe 10 or so mags, a lot better deal than an AR. Not to mention at the range you're looking at you'll be hard pressed to find something better than the AK. |
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You could buy a Bushmaster, Rock River, DPMS or Stag for around $900 and spend the rest on mags and ammo that will sit in the safe. I just don't buy into all the hype of Colt, Noveske, etc. that are $1000 and up rifles. I own a Bushmaster and RRA, and my buddy just bought a DPMS. They all go bang. |
It's not hype, it's reality. Your BM and RRA and ESPECIALLY your friend's DPMS are all inferior to Colt and LMT. BM and RRA are midgrade at best. They simply do not have the quality control measures in place that Colt does. DPMS is pure crap. I've seen too many DPMS guns with chambers so tight that they repeatedly rip the rim off the case trying to extract them. DPMS also has one of the highest bolt failure rates of any company. RRA and BM are alright, but they don't meet my standards, or a lot of other people's standards who rely on their rifles for their lives. At work we TRASH our Colts. Do we have problems? Occassionally, but our rifles see more rounds in a week at the range than most people here will go through in a year. And that's my point, machines get worn out when they actually get used, and parts have to be replaced eventually. The failures I've seen in Colt's can all be attributed to parts being used past their expected service life. They get abused: rain, mud, sand, filth...inside and out. And with barrels that are "shot out" by many peoples' standards, you can still qual expert with them, and turn around do FA mag dumps and they run like a top. Are there other good rifles out there, yes, but they don't have the track record of Colt or LMT. I keep mentioning Colt, but my personal LMT's perform just as well if not better than the Colt's at work, albeit under slightly less arduous conditions, though I'm sure they still get run A LOT harder than most of the guns here on ARFCOM. |
+1 being that you're probably not gonna clean it either. "AK47, the very best there is! When you absolutely, positively, got to kill every mutha f*cker in the room....accept no substitues" (Samuel Jackon/Pulp fiction) both the firearm and the ammo will be cheaper too... Only downside is that if your wife doesn't like guns, I'd love to see her face when you bring home a under or side folder hock.gif just a thought. |
Um, I think that was Sam Jackson in Jackie Brown.  Go buy a LMT and be done with it. |
Any kind of deception is wrong. You need to talk to her about what you want and she needs to understand that. Of course it's always easier to ask for forgiveness than permission... 
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I hate to say it but so far, here are the best 2 pieces of advice you have gotten...
She being opposed to guns is one thing but telling you that you're not allowed to have\shoot them because of some stupid hangup she has is complete and intolerable BS IMO. If for whatever reason dumping her isn't an option then...
I hate to say it as I hate AK's but if this is going to staying hidden away some place and never fired (and presumably never maintained), I would feel more comfortable with an AK in that situation. Even then, if you don't go out and fire at least a few hundred rounds through it when you first get it, just to verify it works and the sights are on, then that's just stupid IMO. |
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Buy a 6920, or 6520, and shoot 200 rounds through it and zero it with the middle of the batch. Clean her well and use some Break-free collectors lube to preserve it for the day you need it. Buy MagPul P-Mags, keep one loaded, and the others in an ammo box with the rounds you get on stripper clips. P.S. get her to shoot it, she may feel differently about firearms after. |
You can buy complete LMT's online. Anyway.........there's NO WAY I would buy a gun, any gun, immediately stash it, and then count on it to save my life when I needed it. Not even an "almighty" Colt. Would you honestly feel comfortable buying a gun, not even shooting it, then stashing it and relying on it to save your life or the life of your loved ones? 
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What the hell has happened to this place? A cheap ass rifle is not the way to go for something like that. A shotgun is DEFFINATELY not the way to go for something like that, and getting a new wife or stashing the rifle is not the way to go either.You need to educate your wife one way or another and find a way to come to a compromise about all of this first. Buy something good like a Colt or LMT or Noveski if you are wanting an ass kick rifle. Do some training with it. I am not saying to turn into rambo or go militia or anyhting like that, but learn how to defend yourself, your home and your family with a good weapon. You wouldnt enter a pro car race with an off the lot sports car would you? Get what is ment to work in those situations. |
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Hmm, how to put this? Well, my wife and I have a superb relationship and we always make the big decisions together. But, with that said, there is NO WAY I would let her forbid me doing something I felt so strongly about. I'm a very traditional husband I suppose (that's a virtue around here, not a shortcoming) and I was brought-up with the knowledge that it was primarily MY responsibility to keep my home and family safe. It's a responsibility I take very seriously. If I decided I needed (or wanted) a particular type of weapon to make me a better "sheep dog" for the farm, I'd get it and learn to use it. Period. If she had some kind of hang-up about it I'd definitely discuss it with her and if the problem persisted I would avoid offending her with it in every way possible. However, the fact remains that, in my world at least, it is your duty to keep your family safe and in this day and age you really do need an effective firearm to do so. If you lived in the middle ages you would need a sword, because that's what the bad guys would be trying to use against you. If you lived in the 1870's you would probably need a good revolver or lever-action rifle, because that's what the bad guys would probably be using. Well, it's 2008. Guess what you might be up against now if the power and phone goes out and all the stores close! Explain things to her as best you can and try to come to an understanding about it, but in the end do not back down. Get the tools you need to provide for yourself and the family. If it still offends her, don't take an "in your face" attitude about it or allow it to become an obvious item for future arguments. Keep it stored SAFELY and OUT OF SIGHT. But don't lie to her about it, and don't hide it from her either. Let her know you are going to get it and also let her know that you will occasionally need to take it out to the range to practice with it to stay competent and safe. Short of living in some sort of defenseless domestic servitude I think this is the best you can hope to do, at least at this stage. Most people who are initially very uncomfortable around guns tend to relax and eventually accept them when they are casually exposed to them and they realize they don't spontaneously start spraying bullets or cast spells that turn their owners into camo-clad anarchists'. Some of them even develop a curiosity about them and ask to tag along on your next range trip. Some very good things can come from that!
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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - SHTF safe queen (Page 1 of 2)
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