AR Sponsor
Posted: 2/7/2008 3:04:23 AM EDT
| I don't know if this belongs here or in the gear section but anyway...I tried searching but couldn't come up with much. What is everybody's thought on chrome lining or stainless barrels on AR types for reliability or long term usage? I would assume the chrome would last longer, but I recal reading something about rusting under the chrome. I am curious about this in a survival aspect. What are you all running? |
| I was long into Arisaka service rifles; collecting, trading around, and shooting goodly numbers. Even when the exterior was rusty, moldy and abused the "Chrome lined" bores & chambers were usually 99% perfect when given a basic bore cleaning. This all, 60+ years after being dragged thru a salt water, tropical environ and a corrosive-primer war zone, or before standing, neglected, next to the chimney in somebodies' attic. Out of 100's, I have never seen a "totally" unserviceable WWII chrome barrel! I vote for CHROME....."it's a good thing" (Martha Stewart) |
Nothing is perfect: I've learned to really appreciate SS for most applications. HERE is my write up, which is much more abuse than 99% or AR owners will ever subject their ARs to. Also - dont get caught up in the hype of the uber barrel$. In all practical applications for the extra money you get nothing more than the name. |
WOW! |
Great write up..... thanks |
| What about wear? I know a SS barrel will last long than CM, but what about chrome lined? I am not worried about shooting the barrel out, I can't afford that much ammo, but I am curious if there are any cons to SS besides for being more expensive and slightly heavier. |
Totally agree Steve. I do believe there is 1% of the population (if that) that will take advantage of the really high end barrel but for most of us, a standard match grade SS barrel will out shoot all of us. |
|
No arguments from me over the uber barrels. I know it's been said before, but an old service barrel can put round after round into a silhouette at 500 yards. That is good enough for me. Especially on a 16" rifle I'm not going to be using optics on. I am just trying to weight the pros and cons of SS and chrome lined. I don't know if it is worth the cost difference. I know it's not worth it for the accuracy side of it. Now I am looking into it from the barrel life aspect. |
Do you agree with BigBore that the stainless giving more FPS than chrome |
Doesn't make sense, since chrome is slicker.. would the chroming process make the bore diameter change that much that the added friction from the smaller diameter negate the lubricity difference? I wouldn't think so, but nothing else that could cause that comes to mind |
As in the few thousandths of chrome "squeezing" the bullet more adding more friction? That's what I thought of too but I would think if the barrel was spec'd for chroming they would take that into account when boring the barrel. |
There are other things at play here that they aren't mentioning like what style rifling. I don't know of any CL polygonal rifling barrels as of yet (though the next operator is rumored to be). Many SS barrels are polygonal rifling. |
rifling has nothing to do with it. Standard and poly rifled barrels look the same to my Ohler. |
Explain that to my 5R Kriegers versus other non-polygonal SS barrels. I see definite differences on the chrono. Read under types of rifling and advantages. Specifically 5R. I would say the Bench rest community are the foremost experts on anything accuracy / velocity related. www.6mmbr.citymaker.com/barrelFAQ.html |
|
I have a SS Douglas that has 18k ish the last 5k ish in Iraq -- its not was it was as much in the accuracy dept -- but its still does a good job. I'm not much a subscriber to F/A use in a carbine/rifle - but even for that this guy has been thru hell and still sits around the MOA mark. |
|
I'm a 6PPC benchrest competitor. I guarantee that if chrome was better than stainless, every BR shooter on the planet would have a chrome barrel. Our barrels usually last from 700 to 1200 rounds before they stop shooting. Some a little less, some a little more. About 25% of all BR barrels will never be competitive even when brand new. A screamer barrel is priceless and very well cared for before it's gone. Makes no difference if Chrome Moly or Stainless. BR shooters tend to use stainless more because it's easier to machine and chamber without chatter. That's more a gunsmith recommendation than shooter opinion and preference. Most folks think stainless shoots better than chrome moly for the simple fact there are more stainless barrels on the line. Not true. Dale |
I always thought is was longer throat life not ease of Machining. Stainless is FAR harder to machine than carbon steel but more resilent to gas cutting of the throat. Throat life has ALOT to do with shoulder angle. The steeper the angle the shorter the throatlife. That why Weatherby's have such a short life. |
5R Krieger? Sure about that? SS is softer and easier to machine, chamber, contour and cut threads. I see it everyday. Lothar Walther's barrels are a tougher grade of stainless. |
Finally!! Somebody that actually knows better  I gave up trying to convince people that stainless barrels are not inherently more accurate than CM. I love stainless.....I have a ton of guns with stainless barrels. My reasoning however is that I'm lazy and I like the much lower maintenance required in a stainless hunting rifle  I can remember way back when stainless handguns started becoming popular and were mucho expensive. The OEM's across the board blamed it on the difficulty in machining stainless.  |
It is probably true. Most stainless steels are significantly more difficult to machine than the resulphurized martensitic steels used in barrels. |
Probably because stainless is easier to machine and those using it are more likely to start with a great finish on the bore before rifling. But the bore on my .270 (stainless) was no better than any CM...but it was a factory barrel. When I spun that one off and put on a great Shilen Select, accuracy improvement was well worth the price. If you are going to be using blasting ammo, don't get a stainless. But if you want to shoot tight knothole groups, stainless is worth the money. Now on chrome plating. Chrome as used in barrels is very hard, inelastic and tough. But it has its limits and after some use, it develops cracks due to the stress. This is where oxygen can penetrate and cause the corrosion seen in the above photo. A brand new barrel will not rust. A used barrel will rust at much reduced rate and should be good for a few days in salt water. A worn-out chrome lined barrel is still a worn out barrel. You get a few thousand more rounds but it still won't make it last forever. There is a reason most true machine gun barrels have a Stellite lining for the first few inches of bore even if chrome lined. |
Dear sir, I would suggest you invest in a borescope. Alot of your opinions will be challenged by use of your own eyeball. Dale |
I have a chrome lined CMV polygonal barrel and an electroless nickle/silicon carbide lined stainless polygoanl barrel. Polygonal rifling does not increase velocity. A tighter chamber DOES increase velocity. I would submit chamber specs are THE most important factor for velocity after barrel length. |
|
Not just chamber - a tighter neck can do it with a looser chamber -- as the SS barrel with more friction than chrome barrels can increase pressure thus increasing velocity in certain barrel lenght/ammuntion combinations. My Sr16 Recce Rifle clocks 2750 with Mk262 Mod1... |
| I submit which powder and how much of it is what effects velocity more than anything. Filling the case to the bottom of the neck and seating a flat bottom BR bullet jammed into the lands greatly increases pressure and velocity. With all things being the same, a moly bullet will have more velocity than a naked bullet. There is no one single simple thing that would increase velocity. |
Any barrel with whatever rifling style that increases or reduces bullet engraving force will affect velocity with a given load. Increase the engraving force and pressure/velocity will go up, decrease it pressure and velocity goes down.
Uhhh no it actually decreases velocity and pressure with the same powder / powder charge. Now after you move to a moly bullet you can increase the powder charge till the pressure reaches the original load and you'll get a slight increase in velocity. Here is Norma's findings on this subject.
I understand what your getting at but I think you mean a tighter throat increases velocity. And specifically a throat that increases the rate of the engraving forces is what increases pressure and velocity the most.
And I also think you mean throat, the only way a tight neck will increase pressure is very bad. That's when it gets so tight that the neck acts like a crimping die, KB. |
Roger --my bad |
|
I hope that someone has helped Frankensteineken out because my head hurts. This is a simple Apple vs Orange... If Apple and Orange both have the same relative accuracy at say 300 to 400 meters, which one can you put more rounds through before you need to start throwing rocks. For relative accuracy take into account most shooters on there best day cannot hit anything past 300 meters with iron sights (most are closer to 150 meters) even at a bench rest. And if someone is kind enough to shoot at you from the 300 meter target on a gun range then just wing them because they ain't all there. When the batterries run out on your aimpoint and your scope gets whacked against a tree all you have is iron sights so don't try that one either. Now that the perfect world has been obliterated for the "experts" can someone please answer the origional question. Barrel A: Chrome Moly barrel with Chrome lined chamber and bore = ? rounds Barrel B: Stainless Steel barrel of equal dimensions and design=? rounds |
It will depend -- most manufacturers will not do a SS barrle of less than .750 under the handguards - as they are worries it will not have the same structural strength. I've used optics in 5 different countries - and while I have had EOTECH's fail me -- my Short Dots, Aimpoints and ACOG's have not -- I dont value irons for anything in this day and age - as your crippling yourself and your team. I have a 11.5" Noveske SR16, and a 16" Douglas 16" SR16 middy -- my middy I've already commented on what it is capable of. It has also sat in Iraq for a time while I was home, without any corrosion issues noted (inc two time two month stints while I was at home). For day to day usage - I would likely be as well served with a normal M4A1 barrel - but for times I am up somewhere with the ShortDot dialed up and a can on - I appreciate the SS barrel will give me a little more if I have the time to do my part. If you trying to get your carbine to play SAW - then the Colt barrel would be a better job -- but we have tools for that role -- and I dont value suppressive fire like some do - as I have seen it does not do much other than lighten your basicload down to dangerous levels with little to show for decrease in the enemy populace. Aim more -> shoot less, Kill more |
Lilja barrels certainly will. I have several of them. Dale McClure USMC 69-72 |
|
Accuracy goes to SS barrels. BR barrels are all SS. If youy want to put 5 shots into less than a 1/10 of an inch at 100 yards, you use stainless. Your action is also a custom in 6PPC. Got one, done it. Minute of Haji is different than Minute of benchrest. I shoot against a buddy of mine. Army sniper. I emberass the hell out of him in group shooting. He's at a disadvantage shoting groups with his Remington 700 .308 at 300 yards plus, his 2" groups are more than good enough. In benchrest, we've some pretty well documented barrel tests. Cryo, different steels, different methods of rifling. The arguments in BR tend to come down to button rifled, versus cut rifled. Either can shoot a "screamer". 5 shots under 1/10th of an inch at 100yards. Don't know if this adds anything whorthwhile to the debate. Waiting on a Noveske Infidel with a Pac-Nor. Plan on having a Krieger fitted. Personal preference is cut rifled stainless, ala' Krieger, Mike Rock 5R. In a .223, pressures are moderate, throat wear negligable. Any decent barrel will last. Just my opinions Mark |
|
All BR barrels are not stainless. You see more stainless barrels on the line because of the ease to machine and maintain. Personally, I like chrome moly but for no special reason. I guess I like a blued barrel becasue it becomes a conversation piece, especially when you win a match. It doesn't shoot any better or worse than a stainless barrel and lasts about the same amount of rounds before it dies. Snipers don't shoot groups. They are trained to kill with one shot at an unknown distance and wind. No sighters. Dale McClure |
|
I call bullshit. Name a chrome moly barrel that's won the Supershoot in the last 20 years. Check Tony Boyer's record for the last 20 years. You can argue cut vs. buttoned, not much else. Chrome moly is much easier to machine. Check the rockwell of chrome moly vs. stainless, 406, 416, etc. Snipers better know the wind, and distance. That is what they are trained for. I beat my buddy with a tuned load, at a known distance. 6PPC is inherently more accurate at this range. What I can do with a 66gr projectile is going to be different than what he can do with 128gr. .308 It has nothing to do with him as a shooter. I'm still trying to convince him of that. I'm trying to teach him the clues, how to read what's there. He's getting it. Mark |
|
I call http://madspictures.homestead.com/files/BS/bsflag22.gif. Why are you so unstable? I won the North Texas Shooting Assoc. against Stiller and Speedy's boys in 2004, and some other good shooters as well. It was a non sanctioned points match for all summer. I won the Hottern' Hell NBRSA sanctioned match that same year. All with a chrome moly barrel. I had two screamer patches that year. About 6 slabs of wood left Texas and went to Oklahoma. That same year I won the Kansas and Texas state championship in rimfire BR. That same year I also won the Texas rimfire aggregate and Ennis club championship. All with a chrome moly barrel on a 40X and a Time. My point is not my shooting accomplishments, my point is a stainless and chrome moly barrel can be made to shoot equally as well. You hand Tony Boyer a chrome moly barrel and he will kick both our asses. My goal was to win in benchrest in 2004. I accomplished what I accomplished, with a chrome moly barrel. Try to control your anger. |
|
Someone do tell - how come no one makes superlight profile 416 barrels??? There are some excellent stainless alloys out there such as that used by Larue, and then there are the run of the mill stainless barrels used by most of the rest. Unless it is a stainless alloy superior to 416, chrome lined CMV is always superior for a fighting gun because of its strength in high temperature applications. If we are talking benchrest accuracy then stainless may be king. Anybody read the Black Rifle? |
Man, you really are pissed off, huh? Would a stainless barrel shoot better than a chrome moly barrel on this mediocre group? There were 26 other shooters with stainless barrels that could not beat this group on this day. The wind was hell on this day. If a stainless barrel is more accurate, how can this be so? Please explain. I brought home wood on this one with a chrome moly barrel, against at least three Hall of Fame shooters. Go figure? I didn't win the match but I had smallest group of the match. And your response is "bite my ass"? http://madspictures.homestead.com/files/Benchrest/5-8-04lvtarget.JPG |
AR Sponsor