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Originally Posted By Backstop:
Can't recall the exact verbiage, but earlier Pat let it be known that using an X300 on a rifle was a nogo. My X300 is brighter, has a longer throw, and what I think is a better up-close beam than my C2 LED. Granted, the ergonomics of using a stick light on the rifle is the very best for me; I shoot thumb up, and the push button for the light is right there. And the rocker switch (? name) on the X300 seems like it would be a pain in the ass to manipulate. So, aside from the above, I gotta wonder why he wouldn't recommend an X300 on a rifle? How about you folks. If you also don't recommend the rifle/X300 combo, why not? The big things I like about the X300 are the weight and small size. FWIW, I have a G2 with a Malkoff on my rifle. Thanks. Here it is from page 31: http://www.ar15.com/forums/manageReply.html?a=quote&b=3&f=118&t=360169&r=3742893&page=31 Originally Posted By Pat_Rogers:
SNIP Are the Surefire X200 and X300 pistol lights appropriate to mount on a carbine in terms of light throw. I assume they are acceptable for any short range need to identify a target They are good pistol lights. I do not think they are viable as carbine lights Larry Vickers seems to like the X300 on a carbine. See #2 http://vickerstactical.com/faqs-with-larry-vickers/ |
FBINA
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Originally Posted By Branspop: Originally Posted By Backstop: Can't recall the exact verbiage, but earlier Pat let it be known that using an X300 on a rifle was a nogo. My X300 is brighter, has a longer throw, and what I think is a better up-close beam than my C2 LED. Granted, the ergonomics of using a stick light on the rifle is the very best for me; I shoot thumb up, and the push button for the light is right there. And the rocker switch (? name) on the X300 seems like it would be a pain in the ass to manipulate. So, aside from the above, I gotta wonder why he wouldn't recommend an X300 on a rifle? How about you folks. If you also don't recommend the rifle/X300 combo, why not? The big things I like about the X300 are the weight and small size. FWIW, I have a G2 with a Malkoff on my rifle. Thanks. Here it is from page 31: http://www.ar15.com/forums/manageReply.html?a=quote&b=3&f=118&t=360169&r=3742893&page=31 Originally Posted By Pat_Rogers: SNIP Are the Surefire X200 and X300 pistol lights appropriate to mount on a carbine in terms of light throw. I assume they are acceptable for any short range need to identify a target They are good pistol lights. I do not think they are viable as carbine lights Larry Vickers seems to like the X300 on a carbine. See #2 http://vickerstactical.com/faqs-with-larry-vickers/ In all fairness, hasn't the the X300 gone up about 60 lumens recently? I thought it used to be 110 and now it's 170. I think I recall Pat liking the Cree Q5s in a 2 cell and that's certainly punchier than either. Obviously it depends what kind of range you expect to be working at. For CQB strictly, I'm sure you could get away with a floodier beam and fewer lumens, but if you want something with reach while still having plenty of side spill for CQB you're gonna need more total lumens to spread around. I think the point is he didn't feel the the X300 had enough to spread around. Plus he looks to be a thumbs-up vert-gripper, so maybe he prefers the ergos of a click switch as well. ETA: Well, spoke too soon. Seems after looking further, the X300 probably has the same emitter as before, but Surefire has started rating their outputs accurately whereas they used to be very conservative in how they label their output. So if Pat didn't think the X300 cut the mustard before, at least as an all around carbine light, he probably hasn't had reason to change his mind. |
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Independence is my happiness, and I view things as they are, without regard to place or person; my country is the world, and my religion is to do good. ~Paine
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Originally Posted By VelveteenMole:
Originally Posted By Branspop:
Larry Vickers seems to like the X300 on a carbine. See #2 http://vickerstactical.com/faqs-with-larry-vickers/ In all fairness, hasn't the the X300 gone up about 60 lumens recently? I thought it used to be 110 and now it's 170. I think I recall Pat liking the Cree Q5s in a 2 cell and that's certainly punchier than either. Obviously it depends what kind of range you expect to be working at. For CQB strictly, I'm sure you could get away with a floodier beam and fewer lumens, but if you want something with reach while still having plenty of side spill for CQB you're gonna need more total lumens to spread around. I think the point is he didn't feel the the X300 had enough to spread around. Plus he looks to be a thumbs-up vert-gripper, so maybe he prefers the ergos of a click switch as well. [div]ETA: Well, spoke too soon. Seems after looking further, the X300 probably has the same emitter as before, but Surefire has started rating their outputs accurately whereas they used to be very conservative in how they label their output. So if Pat didn't think the X300 cut the mustard before, at least as an all around carbine light, he probably hasn't had reason to change his mind. Like many things in the gun world there is a bit of preference to the mix. Pat doesn't like the x300 for a rifle, Vickers does. I think you could safely argue that both are experienced with the weapons systems. In this case, however, I'll defer to Vickers' experiences in the low light combat realm. No single source has all the answers. We can learn from all of them. |
FBINA
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This was an excellent and informative read. Since I had a nice, quiet, day at work I had time to read it.  Except for the part about bayonet training (i'm pretty sure I won't need to bayonet anyone anytime soon and it really has no place in a course.) Thanks to everyone for all the info on what works/doesn't work! I'm pretty new to the AR platform and learned a lot. I have some upgrading to do on my builds. Bravo Company will be getting money out of me in the near future between bolts, spare parts, and more mags!
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couple of my dad's friends bought jaguars in the 80's.. they sure got what they paid for :)
Originally Posted By ColtAR-15:
For the most part, you get what you pay for. Buy crap, get crap. Buy the best equipment that you can afford. Take care of it and it will take care of you. ..and so on. Great thread. I have read the whole thing now 3 times. Just finished with #3 |
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Originally Posted By Blacktide:
One question I have is referring to keeping a spare bolt. I have always thought that a well used bolt carrier can have problems with a new bolt. Is this true? Not a problem at all. You will want to test the spare bolt in the guns you may use it in to make sure there aren't any tolerance stacking problems. |
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Originally Posted By Blacktide:
One question I have is referring to keeping a spare bolt. I have always thought that a well used bolt carrier can have problems with a new bolt. Is this true? I had a bolt locking lug break off a Bushmaster BCG at arround 12K rd count... I got a new bolt from Bushmaster and dropped it in the same Carrier.. and it has 3K more on it.... 
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Originally Posted By Harv24:
Originally Posted By Blacktide:
One question I have is referring to keeping a spare bolt. I have always thought that a well used bolt carrier can have problems with a new bolt. Is this true? I had a bolt locking lug break off a Bushmaster BCG at arround 12K rd count... I got a new bolt from Bushmaster and dropped it in the same Carrier.. and it has 3K more on it....
Good to know. |
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My last class I had a Brl nut vibrate loose. Did not notice until after the class was over.
I had an Aimpoint CompM fail. The diode went bad. Even on the highest switch setting with a new battery its too dim for outdoor use in bright sunlight. I tightened the brl nut myself, no further issues. I replaced the CompM with a CompML-XD. |
Nothing in this post should be considered information posted in an official capacity. It is the authors personal opinion alone.
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Originally Posted By VelveteenMole:
Originally Posted By Branspop:
Originally Posted By Backstop:
Can't recall the exact verbiage, but earlier Pat let it be known that using an X300 on a rifle was a nogo. My X300 is brighter, has a longer throw, and what I think is a better up-close beam than my C2 LED. Granted, the ergonomics of using a stick light on the rifle is the very best for me; I shoot thumb up, and the push button for the light is right there. And the rocker switch (? name) on the X300 seems like it would be a pain in the ass to manipulate. So, aside from the above, I gotta wonder why he wouldn't recommend an X300 on a rifle? How about you folks. If you also don't recommend the rifle/X300 combo, why not? The big things I like about the X300 are the weight and small size. FWIW, I have a G2 with a Malkoff on my rifle. Thanks. Here it is from page 31: http://www.ar15.com/forums/manageReply.html?a=quote&b=3&f=118&t=360169&r=3742893&page=31 Originally Posted By Pat_Rogers:
SNIP Are the Surefire X200 and X300 pistol lights appropriate to mount on a carbine in terms of light throw. I assume they are acceptable for any short range need to identify a target They are good pistol lights. I do not think they are viable as carbine lights Larry Vickers seems to like the X300 on a carbine. See #2 http://vickerstactical.com/faqs-with-larry-vickers/ In all fairness, hasn't the the X300 gone up about 60 lumens recently? I thought it used to be 110 and now it's 170. I think I recall Pat liking the Cree Q5s in a 2 cell and that's certainly punchier than either. Obviously it depends what kind of range you expect to be working at. For CQB strictly, I'm sure you could get away with a floodier beam and fewer lumens, but if you want something with reach while still having plenty of side spill for CQB you're gonna need more total lumens to spread around. I think the point is he didn't feel the the X300 had enough to spread around. Plus he looks to be a thumbs-up vert-gripper, so maybe he prefers the ergos of a click switch as well. ETA: Well, spoke too soon. Seems after looking further, the X300 probably has the same emitter as before, but Surefire has started rating their outputs accurately whereas they used to be very conservative in how they label their output. So if Pat didn't think the X300 cut the mustard before, at least as an all around carbine light, he probably hasn't had reason to change his mind. Thanks for finding that quote Branspop. And thanks to the other folks that commented. Since I posted that, I got a couple of the new Surefire LED heads - and it is now brighter than my 300. So Rogers doesn't like it, but Vickers does. I greatly value the opinion of both men. But with all things shooting, some stuff I hear/learn/read works for me, and some doesn't. Since I asked that question, I put my 300 on my rifle. And as I wondered about above, that switch sucked ass. And seeing as how the 300 sat a bit farther back than the G2 does, there was a bit more barrel shadow. Overall impression: the G2 with a Malkoff has a better beam, and is easier for me to control than a 300. Even the new Surefire LED - which I put on the G2 to test - is better than my 300. |
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so what you need to go to a carbine class to prepare for any breakage or mishaps are: spare bolt, rings, extractor, o-ring(ymmv), bcg, lpk, firing pin, springs and detents, optic, buis, addt'l mags, lube, ar wrench, hammer, punches, cleaning kit, squib rod, batteries, appropriate tools and if possible an extra rifle. in other words be prepared....good day to you all.
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Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
How is this still not tacked? It is. It's one of the referenced threads in the FAQ. Smart people (who read the FAQs) will find it. The less smart, well they won't take the advice of the more experienced anyway.
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'97 Jeep XJ Owner, former '98 XJ Owner
"Free thinking is great.. that's how the Assault wheelbarrow with silenced .22 rifle was born..." Harv24
"Free thinking is great.. that's how the Assault wheelbarrow with silenced .22 rifle was born..." Harv24
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Originally Posted By Forest:
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
How is this still not tacked? It is. It's one of the referenced threads in the FAQ. Smart people (who read the FAQs) will find it. The less smart, well they won't take the advice of the more experienced anyway. 
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God Bless Texas
"... it's the socialism, stupid." - RL
"... it's the socialism, stupid." - RL
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X300 is fine for CQB light and navigation. If you're an LEO with a patrol rifle then you may or may not need more lumens and more throw for exterior searches. Most MIL guys are going to go with NVGs exterior and aren't going to probe with high light outdoors.
Home defense the X300 is more than adequate for your rifle. I like the weight savings and small size that allows it to be positioned at the 12 o'clock, which is why I believe LV loves it since you know that light is going to most likely clear barriers you're aiming around and not splash back on you. |
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Originally Posted By FAB-10_Guy:
Last I checked, the jury was still out for Pat with the mid-length gas system. I'm wondering what his specific take is on it. 16" vs 14.5"? Does it offer any more reliability/benefits over the standard Carbine length barrel and gas system? The BCM EAG Tactical carbine is a 14.5" middy, if that answers your question. |
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Originally Posted By CARarick:
seeing as how I've never really put a lightweight AR through the ringer, has anyone seen any degradation in performance from guns with lightweight barrels in extensive courses? Nope. BTW Pat in several other threads (if not this one - it's been a while since I've read the whole thing) recommends them. |
'97 Jeep XJ Owner, former '98 XJ Owner
"Free thinking is great.. that's how the Assault wheelbarrow with silenced .22 rifle was born..." Harv24
"Free thinking is great.. that's how the Assault wheelbarrow with silenced .22 rifle was born..." Harv24
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It would be cool if someone had the time to go through this whole thread and
write down all of the parts that guys have had break on them during training classes or prolonged shooting competitions and events. |
"Liberals are emotionally unstable, intellectually dishonest, and morally bankrupt. " - by Herman Snerd
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Originally Posted By jb2c:
I'll take pages 1-10 if someone else will take a chunk of 10 pages. A list as you suggest is a good idea. I'll do 11 - 20 |
"Liberals are emotionally unstable, intellectually dishonest, and morally bankrupt. " - by Herman Snerd
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Here is what I got from pages 1-10:
Bolt Bolt carrier extractor springs extractor buffer springs bolt rings loose castle nuts match triggers/aftermarket triggers disconnector buffer retainer pin unsecured optics weak trigger spring firing pin retaining pin ejector spring gas key not staked loose carrier key charging handle But as Pat noted in one of his posts, most of the problems relate to bad mags, lack of lube, bad ammo, and bad parts/springs/extractors. So bad parts is only part of the equation. But I guess that's what we're mostly covering in this thread. What I primarily got from the first 10 pages was: Plenty of lube Good ammo Quality mags Buy good quality parts, especially a good BCG, extractor and extractor spring Locktite all screws Run a quality stock trigger JB |
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Originally Posted By jb2c: Here is what I got from pages 1-10: Bolt Bolt carrier extractor springs extractor buffer springs bolt rings loose castle nuts match triggers/aftermarket triggers disconnector buffer retainer pin unsecured optics weak trigger spring firing pin retaining pin ejector spring gas key not staked loose carrier key charging handle But as Pat noted in one of his posts, most of the problems relate to bad mags, lack of lube, bad ammo, and bad parts/springs/extractors. So bad parts is only part of the equation. But I guess that's what we're mostly covering in this thread. What I primarily got from the first 10 pages was: Plenty of lube Good ammo Quality mags Buy good quality parts, especially a good BCG, extractor and extractor spring Locktite all screws Run a quality stock trigger JB Make a spreadsheet on google documents so it can be easily updated That idea is my contribution.
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Originally Posted By jb2c:
Here is what I got from pages 1-10: Bolt Bolt carrier extractor springs extractor buffer springs bolt rings loose castle nuts match triggers/aftermarket triggers disconnector buffer retainer pin unsecured optics weak trigger spring firing pin retaining pin ejector spring gas key not staked loose carrier key charging handle But as Pat noted in one of his posts, most of the problems relate to bad mags, lack of lube, bad ammo, and bad parts/springs/extractors. So bad parts is only part of the equation. But I guess that's what we're mostly covering in this thread. What I primarily got from the first 10 pages was: Plenty of lube Good ammo Quality mags Buy good quality parts, especially a good BCG, extractor and extractor spring Locktite all screws Run a quality stock trigger JB You are fast JB. I'll do 11-20 tomorrow night when I have more time. Snerd |
"Liberals are emotionally unstable, intellectually dishonest, and morally bankrupt. " - by Herman Snerd
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I just finished reading pages 11 through 20 and making notes.
Most of the broken AR parts discussed in this section of pages have already been named repeatedly in the first 10 pages. jb2c did a great job of laying them out for us in his synopsis of the first 10 pages. We also need to add the following parts to jb2c's list: Bolt Cam Pin Gas Rings Extractor Pin The importance of using locktite and staking the castle nut and bolt carrier key were stressed. KNS anti-walk pins were asked about and Pat Rogers repeatedly said that he doesn't see the need for them and said many of their EAG company guns have had tens of thousands of rounds fired and their trigger and hammer pins haven't walked out. Pat also mentioned the acronym MEAL. In order for the carbine to keep running you must use good quality Magazines Extractor Ammunition Lube (and lots of it) Pat also wrote a great article that was printed in S.W.A.T. magazine back in 2006 titled: Keep Your Carbine Running Here is a link to that article hosted here at AR15.com: Keep Your Carbine Running - S.W.A.T. Magazine Article That should cover the high points of pages 11 - 20. |
"Liberals are emotionally unstable, intellectually dishonest, and morally bankrupt. " - by Herman Snerd
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Originally Posted By HermanSnerd:
It would be cool if someone had the time to go through this whole thread and write down all of the parts that guys have had break on them during training classes or prolonged shooting competitions and events. Stake the things that need to be staked, loctite the things that need to be loctited, get spare parts and replace minor parts as needed, keep the gun lubed, use quality ammo with quality mags in a quality upper, Aimpoints are the best. 90% of the thread in one sentence. 
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Okay, so here's what I got from pp. 21 - 30 AR-specific parts: Broken 2-stage trigger ... trigger was in an RRA weapon, but the post didn't state specifically whether or not the trigger itself was RRA A blown-up rifle, but nothing more than speculation was provided as to the reason why Worn out springs - technically not broken, but problematic nonetheless Set-screw (i.e. non-pinned) types of gas blocks coming loose Two "stock malfunctions" mentioned - type of malf. unknown, manufacturer of stock(s) also unknown "Ancillary" parts: Broken tail-cap switch on a scout light Mention of Eotechs failing in training classes Other noteworthy comments: Originally Posted By Pat_Rogers:
Originally Posted By itgoesboom - p. 21:
... Is it a correct statement that most of the issues, besides cheap magazines and ammo, involve the upper assembly rather than the lower? Yes, most of the issues are directly related to the upper. However, not all, and poor parts in the lower can equal a poor lower. Originally Posted By Pat_Rogers:
Originally Posted By USMC88-93 - p. 24:
How many rounds do you put through a typical upper before you retire it from your courses or personal use. Or is it a case where round count is not the issue reliability and consistent grouping is the only determining factor with no regard to round count... Uppers at 12-15k. Lowers have their internals replaced at 10k Bolts may be replaced NLT 10k I have working guns, for use by not only me but others. I don't buy hobby guns or hobby sights. Originally Posted By Pat_Rogers:
Originally Posted By gks452 - p. 21:
Building a good franken gun is not hard. You just need to find out who makes good parts (I won't mention names to prevent hijacking the thread) and be sure to get an MP tested bolt... The biggest downside to a franken gun these days is the extra case of ammo it takes to verify that they are good. Shooting a gun 100 rounds at time is not going to test it. You need to shoot at least 500 rounds through it in a couple hours or less. When ammo was $150 a case that was no big deal. But adding $350 to the cost of a budget gun makes it a lot less of a bargain. Plus not everyone has access to a range that will allow them to rapidly fire a rifle enough to really test it. GKS - you are correct in what you state. Good parts, properly assembeled, will usually go a long way in making a valid gun. However, from my perspective, a student with a problamatic gun not only frustrates himself, but gives a great disservice to the other students as well as pissing off a lot of people. Considering the time and money spent to attend a class, this is significant. Everyone understands when a gun goes down due to normal parts wear, but when someone (figuratively) shoots themselves in the foot with a kitchen table gun that in his mind is" just as good as", it is something else again. I haven't specifically excluded frankenguns from my classes, primarily because there is no real way to do it... Originally Posted By Pat_Rogers:
Cleaning supplies... Absent adverse WX conditions, there is no need to clean the carbine during a 3-5 day class. I'll lube daily, but running a DI gun i'll clean at about 3k. I have 3 LWRCI guns and 2 416's that rarely get cleaned. A dirty well lubed gun will run fine. A dry clean gun won't. Originally Posted By Pat_Rogers:
... I don't teach armorers classes, and detest the word "build" when it comes to guns. My read on armorers classes is that they are more for the certificate than valid information. My recommendation is Dean Caputo's diagnostic classes, which will give you more information in two days then you will learn on the errornet in 10 years. Dean is a Colt Armorer Instructor, but what he gives you is much more, ... The take-away (for me anyway) Use good quality parts of known origin, to begin with Run a high quality bolt / BCG Exercise good PM M.E.A.L. Also, when possible, have a spare or backup of some kind And finally - completely as an aside - being a fan of 16" midlengths, I thought this was great ... 
(from 2008) Originally Posted By Pat_Rogers:
Originally Posted By bigez - p. 26:
–– Just read this whole thread. VERY informative. Thanks so much for your time, Pat. Have you had a chance to try a mid length yet? Thoughts? We don't see a great number of mid length guns in class. Part of the reason is there is no standardization - there are several makers using different components to achieve a similar end state. People i know who are much more astute that i will ever be state that the mid length is more than viable, but that is out of my pay grade. I am going to try a Bravo Company mid length pretty soon. I have 4 other BCM guns, and they all run like sewing machines. I'm not sure as to what an improvement might be, but i'm game to try. Filthy 14, perhaps ... anyone 
Anyway, as has already been said (many times), but is worth repeating - Thanks for taking the time to provide us with your input here, Pat. |
18.0, 15.50, 13.0 ...
Poznai Sebia - Know Yourself.
Poznai Sebia - Know Yourself.
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Originally Posted By HermanSnerd:
I just finished reading pages 11 through 20 and making notes. Most of the broken AR parts discussed in this section of pages have already been named repeatedly in the first 10 pages. jb2c did a great job of laying them out for us in his synopsis of the first 10 pages. We also need to add the following parts to jb2c's list: Bolt Cam Pin Gas Rings Extractor Pin The importance of using locktite and staking the castle nut and bolt carrier key were stressed. KNS anti-walk pins were asked about and Pat Rogers repeatedly said that he doesn't see the need for them and said many of their EAG company guns have had tens of thousands of rounds fired and their trigger and hammer pins haven't walked out. Pat also mentioned the acronym MEAL. In order for the carbine to keep running you must use good quality Magazines Extractor Ammunition Lube (and lots of it) Pat also wrote a great article that was printed in S.W.A.T. magazine back in 2006 titled: Keep Your Carbine Running Here is a link to that article hosted here at AR15.com: Keep Your Carbine Running - S.W.A.T. Magazine Article That should cover the high points of pages 11 - 20. The last part pretty much sums it up: Keep it lubed to reduce friction, and understand that the more you use it, the more parts need to be replaced. Accept that as a fact of life and drive on. §
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Originally Posted By Winn:
Okay, so here's what I got from pp. 21 - 30 AR-specific parts: Broken 2-stage trigger ... trigger was in an RRA weapon, but the post didn't state specifically whether or not the trigger itself was RRA A blown-up rifle, but nothing more than speculation was provided as to the reason why Worn out springs - technically not broken, but problematic nonetheless Set-screw (i.e. non-pinned) types of gas blocks coming loose Two "stock malfunctions" mentioned - type of malf. unknown, manufacturer of stock(s) also unknown Nice job Winn.
Do we have any volunteers for pages 31-40 and 40 - 48? |
"Liberals are emotionally unstable, intellectually dishonest, and morally bankrupt. " - by Herman Snerd
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Originally Posted By whiskey:
Where are you guys buying the quality replacement parts? LMT & Colt from Brownells, DSG Arms or my local kitchen table LMT dealer. |
Nothing in this post should be considered information posted in an official capacity. It is the authors personal opinion alone.
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Originally Posted By jb2c:
Nice job Winn and Snerd. Even if we don't get volunteers for pgs 30-48, I suspect we've got the high points already. Should save some readers a whole lot of reading back thru threads! I agree. Now the topic author just needs to edit his first post and let people know that there is a good summary on page 48. |
"Liberals are emotionally unstable, intellectually dishonest, and morally bankrupt. " - by Herman Snerd
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