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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - LEO needs a hand (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 10/29/2007 9:53:02 PM EDT
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Im in central Fl and I work the road, I am not on the swat team, I work the road. I am the first guy/gal who shows up when you call 911. I am looking for a patrol rifle. I am like a lot of cops I have a family and work more than 80 hrs a pay period. I have been reading everything I can about AR's. I think I have cornfused myself the more I read. I think I have an idea as to what I want or need. But I have a few questions. I want a 16" kiss rifle. I have decided on a mid length but I don't know if I should get the light weight or standard weight. I want it to be a flat top so I can mount a Eo tech or aim point later. I want the fixed a2 front sight, and some kind of rear sight. doesnt have to be a flip up. Looking for an M4 stock not a car stock. I would like to have a vert fore grip so I am wondering if I need a free float or wil some handguards with a pict rail work? I am wondering if using a handguard mount will have too much play? I have a streamlight TLR-1 tac light and a Streamlight TL-2 1inch in dia led light either of which I would like to mount in front of the fore grip and maybe a better light after a while. I am pretty sure I will buy a kit if I can to save money. I have noticed no one says anything about m a parts. Is that because they arent good or because they are not a site member? Speaking of parts sites are there some that are LEO friendly? I am trying to build as close to an all around rifle I can ie..CQB,active shooter school or mall as well as I also work out in the sticks. I have not comitted to any thing yet still doing research so help me get in the right direction. Sorry for all the questions. How is this for a first post? Be safe and Semper Fi. |
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It's my understanding that Noveske will be offering the N4 Carbine rifle in a 16" midlength setup. However, you'll have to wait at least eight months to get it (they're focusing everything on the N4 and their other products right now)... If you're not in a hurry and must have a midlength system, personally I'd wait for that. When you first mentioned a KISS rifle I immediately thought Noveske N4, Colt, and LMT, but the midlength requirement knocked a couple of those off the list (I see a KISS as a chrome lined, not a stainless barrel, although I'm sure that's debatable). Two manufacturers that come to mind that both offer complete uppers are CMMG and Sabre Defense. They might be worth a look. I think thedoctor has it right. Figure out what you want and then try to find the parts for it. Maybe start with a stripped lower, build it up, and then decide if you want to build the upper or order it complete. |
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Welcome aboard Bags, if you're looking for a bargain check out CMMG's AR15 $550 Bargain Bin Rifles You can also contact Anvil Arms Jon from all accounts is a great guy and in your neck of the woods. (Lakeland, FL. 863-398-4460) Don't forget to check in to the Florida Hometown Forum 
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| Thanks for the speedy replies. I am not sold on the mid length. I am still looking and reading which is why I posted. I read that the mid would be more reliable due to the longer tube. I took a look at the bargin bin while I am not made of money I would probably jump on one of those if I were a weekend warrior. I just can't take the chance of someones life on saving a few hundred bucks. I am looking to go with a stripped lower. Are there any other set ups I should take a look at? |
| midlength in theory is more reliable BUT i have never had a problem with carbine length gas systems, and i am MIL. basically, the carbine system is just a little harder on the gun, but you will never really notice a difference and it wont fail you when you need it. just get a midlength if you can but dont waste ANY time or money trying to. i would get the lightest model you can, dont get a heavy barrel they are really muzzle heavy. your gonna have it SEMi only right? so lightweight will work fine. the TLR is a great TAC light, being an LED makes it extremely tough, has long battery life, and most importantly to me is VERY lightweight, i would keep it, unless you really think that you need more lumens. if you need a Vertical fore grip, buy quad rails, any will be able to take a VFG and any light. no point to get the free-floated ones, youll like to be able to change your rifle setup without taking off the barrel like you might have to with the free floated ones. but DONT get the standard handgaurd picatinnay mount that you screw on the plastic handgaurds, they arent solid enough for mounting stuff for serious work in my opinion. |
yep sure can, the two stocks are different but they can be swapped and are totally interchangeable as an assembly. personally i like the CAR style as its lighter and shorter. nice with body armor. |
 welcome to the sitebest advice i can give: if this is your 1st AR, i'd consider buying complete; if not, a build or kit might be best stick to the ABCDRS, LMT, CMMG for AR brands another option: a simple, reliable, easy 'build'--just get a complete Stag M4 upper (~$500 w/ BUIS, BCG/CH) and a complete lower and snap em together if you go w/ a kit, i'd look to delton or JT; the only reason why M&A is not too popular here is b/c of an assault incident and crappy service that an M&A manager/owner did to a fellow ARF.commer a couple yrs back at a gun show...other than that, i hear that thier kits are good i'd go w/ the lightweight myself, mainly b/c of the lighter weight, and better balance; as to i'd consider just getting a replacalbe 2 piece hanguard set (simply swtiches out the std HGs w/ no tools--YHM, MI, and Surefire makes some great ones for the price) |
| FROM 1 LEO TO ANOTHER, CONTACT PETE AT LEGAL TRANSFERS AND ASK ABOUT THE COMPLETE LMT FOR LEO AND MIL. I PURCHASED ONE FROM HIM FOR DUTY AND COULDN'T BE HAPPIER. PETE IS EXCELLENT TO DEAL WITH AND THE LMT IS PERFECT FOR WHAT I NEED IT FOR (THOUGH I DID INSTALL A LARUE RAIL). I WOULD BET MY LIFE ON THAT RIFLE. |
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This is the direction I'd go- The first thing I would consider is ammo selection, I'd go with Hornady 75 Grain 5.56 TAP T2. With a heavier grain 5.56 round, you'll want a 5.56 chambered, 1/7 twist barrel. The following has been discussed in depth, but i would prefer a chrome-lined barrel based on your application. In terms of a 16" mid-length barrel I'd look at Noveske, Bravo Company, Sabre, or Global Tactical/Denny. A quality chrome lined barrel can be very accurate. I've noticed a wide variety of accuracy from different chrome lined barrels from the same manufacturer. I think the four companies listed above are a good choice for a quality chrome lined barrel. I recently bought a complete upper with an Operator(16" CL Middie)barrel with a Bravo Company bolt from Global Tactical. I am very pleased with its accuracy. The profile I would describe as medium contour. Also with a flat-top receiver make sure you get an F marked fsb. I'd look at a Bravo Company, LMT or CMT bolt carrier group. Make sure its properly staked. As far as free float rail system or non floated handguards, I would get a free float. My experience with non free float railed handguards, was the KAC MWS, was that optics mounted on the rail wouldn't keep a zero very well. There are numerous quality ff rails, Larue, Troy, Daniel Defense, to name 3. Personally I like one which is easy to take on and off like the Troy. Daniel Defense has made a new product called the Omega, currently its only made in carbine length, but supposedly they intend to make them for mid-length. The Omega installs with no alteration to the weapon, no removing the delta ring. I like both the Aimpoint and the EO Tech. For a rear sight I'd look at the LMT rear sight. Its very sturdy, to describe it is like a cut down detachable carry handle, not a flip up. For a complete lower, the LMT is an excellent choice. You could build your own from a stripped lower and parts kit. If you go this route, I would recommend Stag or RRA parts kit. As far as the stripped lower there's alot out there. Also i'd get a mil-spec receiver extension. For stocks, I like the Magpul CTR over the 6 position. |
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Hey brother, do yourself a favor and just get a Colt 6920 and be done with it. They are $1095 here which is the lowest all time price I've seen in a long time. $1095 thread from Black Rifle Armory Honestly, you could go on for hours and hours about all of the subtle nuances of each bolt carrier, fire control groups, triggers, handguards etc. I was shot at for the first time in July of 2005 and was going through exactly what you are going through now directly afterward. I had a DRMO M-16A1 in my hands at night and couldn't see crap enough to get a shot off back at the bad guy. Helplessly kneeling behind a truck's engine block taking rounds is a BAD time to find out your equipment is not good enough. Here is a pic of my Colt 6920 in its final form for patrol use.  It's your life brother, remember, they only let you have one. I learned my lesson the hard way but I am greatful I am here to be able to learn from it. I think my wife and daughter are too. Good luck and stay safe. |
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I built a couple rifles very similar to what you're looking for, only differences are that I went with the Magpul CTR stock for better cheek weld, and I don't have rails on the forend. Both of mine came from a Del-Ton kit, their lightweight flattop with T-marks. Lightweight barrel profile, A2 front sight, chrome lined barrel, standard carbine handguards. Both are perfectly reliable, one was built on an Olympic lower and it had no problems at all during a 4-day Front Sight class. The other I haven't wrung out yet but I expect no different. Empty, with Bushnell holosight (Eotech without the hood) one weighs 6lbs flat. I'd trust my life to it. |
This is a great answer good luck and god's speed |
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If its for work or Protection then COLT or LMT! A 14.5 + Phantom MUCH BETTER than a 16.1 + bird cage M4 My BACK UP M4 is a Bushy/VLTOR /551 eotech with LMT 14.5 +phantom is 30.5inch RETRACKED TELE My GO TO is a COMPLETE LMT Defender 2000 with 14.5 barrel SOPMOD TELE (a must have) KAC RAS KAC FVG (easy to install rock solid rail) ARMS 40L same plane Larue cantilever nount for AIMPOINT ML2 Vikeing Tatics mount for Surefire G2 PR-4 mount 1point BlackHawk Sling I consider my Defender 2000 KISS My ML2 has proven itself for 7 years now I dont trust MY EOTECH enough to call it KISS  BTW My Back Up HOMEMADE LMT M4/Bushy runs just as well as my Defender |
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The 1st thing I would do is check to see that your agency will authorize you to carry a home-built weapon. Mine would have a collective heart attack if I proposed that. I would suspect that many agencies would frown on that. I even had to send my lower back to the factory to have an ambi safety put on it, even though it is a 2 minute task (and one of those is finding to tools). It would really stink to put all of that money into a gun, only to find out that you won't be able to use it. I carry a 16" Bushmaster w/fixed stock at work. I have the TLR-1 mounted to the handguards and a sling. It is a good light. I prefer the Surefire X200, and carry one on my pistol, but I just couldn't justify the added cost. Surefire also has the X300 out now, with a big boost in lumen output and battery life, but you are looking in the range of $225-250 for one of those. I was recently turned on to this place, but I have not ordered one from the yet: www.lapolicegear.com/sttlwe.html I do need another light for my shotgun. My philosophy for my work gun is to keep it simple. An ambi safety, a light and a sling are all that I have on it. Surefire X300 |
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I built 2 middy kits from M&A, they shipped fast, good quality. I have nothing but good things to say about them. Having said that, if I was you I'd get a Colt 6920. If you shop around you can get one for a very decent price right now, I got mine 2 weeks ago for $1095. When your life is on the line, daily, saving a couple bucks isn't the priority, pulling the trigger and hearing a bang is. Oh, and thanks for being one of the good guys! |
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I would think your department might not be willing to allow a "built" rifle. They're funny that way some times. My advice would be a Colt 6920. You can add whatever your department will allow from that point. It is a great rifle right out of the box. I'm not a big fan of having a Colt just for the heck of it, but if it's a working tool then I would accept no substitute. Get a second rifle is you want to tinker with it. J. |
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Be sure to check closely with your department armorer to be sure you follow their requirements for a duty use gun. Many/most departments require a factory gun and many will specify certain brands. Are you able to pick your own ammo or are you issued a round? Unless you are sure of exactly what you want or the department specifies a certain configuration, I would stick with a basic M4 type setup and slowly add what you want as you figure that out. FWIW, I'm also a Cent. FL LEO. |
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Bags, Check with your department regs and see what you can get away with. I'm a full time city cop, and I know what works for my needs. My work tends to revolve around kicking doors, clearing buildings, and perimeter work. If I were a county unit, or an officer who tended to get involved in longer distance engagements, I might setup my gear differently. Let me know me know what you do most, and we can go from there. Quality is obviously the most important thing, but you should be able to feed your family without taking out a second mortgage for a duty weapon. ETA- Here is my duty pig. 
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Stickman my problem is I do both. I don't know where I will be working till I come in. Sometimes in the city so to speak and other times in the sticks...no pun inteded. I just looked up policy which is pretty vague...its says it must be semi auto with a min of 16 inches for the barrellsuch as AR15,Bushmaster,Olympic Arms, RRA, and DPMS. I guess its a good thing it doesnt say "shall" but such as... I some guys have some guns built by Spike's. I will be out at the SWAT round up on WED or Thurs, I plan on talking to some people out there maybe puttn a through down range. Thanks for all who have replied. What is the going price for a FFL transfer in central Fl? |
Good advice. |
Sounds like a pretty open policy, which is nice. Most transfers are anywhere from $20-30, you shouldn't need to pay more than that. A 16" barreled weapon works pretty well, though there are obviously times when searching confined spaces that a shorter barrel would be nice to have. For an out of the box upper end weapon, you won't go wrong with the Novekse N4 carbine. Overall quality and components are as high as the best of the weapons available, and higher than most anything else on the market. Here is a review of the Noveske carbine that myself and another officer did a few months back. www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67 The basic carbine comes with the Vltor stock, the Troy rear sight, Tango Down grip, and most importantly, the upgraded Novekse barrel. The Eotech is one of mine, but everything else is how it comes from the factory. If I were grabbing an off the shelf carbine for duty use, this would be it (in either of its configurations).  |
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I'd definitely go with a factory built gun for an approved duty gun. I'm not SWAT by any means, just a uniform normally in rural areas. I'm using a Colt preban with the upper swapped to a factory colt 6920 flat top upper. I have the basic colt rear sight on it still. I have an aimpoint ML3 on a RRA that I'll probably move over. We've only recently been approved to use and just qualified this month with our personal owned Ar's. The very few issue dept. rifles were used last year for familiarization and a basic AR rifle course. We already shoot bolt rifles once a year. The AR's were finally "blessed" by a change in command and the new command listened to the cadre of firearms staff and approved use and we actually got some active shooter type scenario training. Welcome to the 21st century! I'm sure at the SWAT meet you could definitely get some good advice and a good steer on where to pick up a patrol rifle. |
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I'd recommend: Sabre Defense Midlength 1/7 Barrel Chrome Lined Daniel Defense 9.0 Free Float Rail RRA A2 fixed BUIS Aimpoint VFG w/ battery storage for your aimpoint and light Pentagon MS2 light (or MS3 if you really want the bright light) RRA NM Trigger or those 30% reduction springs from Ranier Arms for the stock trigger (check w/ department on this^) Gives you a longer sght radius than with a carbine set up. Your BUIS is right there if your optic fails - simply line up the sights, there is no need to flip them up. Your light is very bright and saves your other light for your pistol. The Rail, while pricey will improve your accuracy since it is free floated, and it is also built like a tank for durablitiy. The barrel will work best with LE designed heavy rounds. |
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My .02 worth......... LIGHTWEIGHT!!! If you get involved in a long search in the "sticks" assisting County or Patrol every pound less counts. Trigger, not less than 4# (liability issue) Electronic sight, PERSONAL preference. You will need to find someone with an Eotech, Aimpoint, etc. and try them. I built my duty AR-15, BUT, I'll be the first to point out that there could be a liability issue on a "home built" rifle. Ammo, depends on the situation. If over penetration is an issue I'd use Hornaday 40 gr. TAP ammo. For general use I use Winchester Ranger 55 gr. SilverTip. PursuitSS |
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Unless you are DEADLY SERIOUS about your building skills and intimately familiar with parts quality DO NOT get a kit gun. I also say you can't go wrong with the Noveske. LMT is also a nice option. There is nothing wrong with purchasing the upper and lower separately to save some cash on FET. I assume that your department will measure barrel length the same way the BATFE does, so a 14.5" with a permanant muzzle device should be OK. I am a city cop, but I do all manner of things from door kicking to open areas. A 14.5"/16" barrel is going to give you all you need for LEO engagements outdoors. Take a look at what Police SNIPER shot ranges are. 14.5" is still very handy indoors as long as you have someone to show you the techniques. With my setup I can get sold hits at 300 yards. I did build my duty rifle, but I selected every part for a reason and beat the hell out of it to check function before placing it in service. Here is my stick:  Whatever you choose, make sure you budget a case of ammo to function check it. Every company puts out a lemon from time to time. Even though the good companies will fix their lemons, it would suck to find out you have on when you pull the trigger on a threat. |
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I would stick to a brand mentioned in the policy and also get a factory built gun for duty. Bushmaster or Rock River are good choices from the list. Bushmaster Patrolman's Carbine would be my choice. You should be able to get one at LEO pricing locally to save a few bucks. IM sent also |
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Beware a Bushmaster...I have no doubt that they once made good guns, and maybe still do, but my place of employment had a one-time nightmare with them. Here is a little story...right after 911 we went through a fast hiring phase, I mean fast, lots of guys & lots of training & we needed to arm the new guys quick...we ordered Colts, but the wait for a Colt carbine was runing about 9 to 10 months since the DoD was getting all the M4s they could get thier hands on. We placed an order anyway & got BMs as a stop-gap until Colts could be had. For the new BMs, in less than 300 rds, 5 out of 25 bolts broke near the cam pin. When I say broke I mean snapped in two. Several more had unstaked carrier keys & the list of screwed up FSBs goes on and on. I am sure there are good BMs on the market, but now I always think twice about them as a compnay. Long story short, we got the Colts and the BMs are now miles gear guns used only for training. Take it for what it is worth...
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| If you decide to build your rifle I have been very impressed with Brownell's. Brownell's will sell to LEO at whole sale prices. All you have to do is call them, tell them your a LEO and they'll give you the better price. I bought a double star lower from brownell and a dpms parts kit. Brownell's is an excellent company and if you have a problem they will take care of you with no hassle. I am a LEO and my department uses Armalite, bushmasters and colts. I'm currently carrying my own RRA because I didn't like the M-16a1 I was issued. My main thing is to make sure your rifle is reliable and any long gun needs a good light. I bought a TACM III from brownell's but your streamlight should be fine. I also believe you need a good sling. My dept. uses three point sling for road troops and tactical guys use single point. The sling sure helps if you have to cuff some one or do climbing. I agree you should look and try things out before you buy. Its easier to try out someone else's rig and find what you like and don't like before you buy. I have both mid length and carbine length. They both have worked 100% for me. If you have long arms mid length is nice but CAR m-4 is lighter. Good luck. I hope you don't contract BRD like I did........stay safe. |
| Many Thanks to all who replied. I am still up in the air. I do plan on going to the SWAT round up and chewing the fat with some of the vendors. While I am there I will talk to some of our range guys and a gals and see what they suggest. I will keep trolling the EE for a deal I can not pass up. I stopped by AL's today just to take a look and ask how much to transfer and they said 25 plus 5 for back ground check. I am gonna stop by Pace and talk to Chris. Thanks again. Ill let you guys know how it goes. |
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HI Bags, Give me a call, come by the shop. We can discuss your needs, go over all the various parts with their pros and cons and then while you are there we can build exactly the weapon you need while you watch. We will then test fire it while your there. We can even laser engrave your department badge or other custom image for you while your there. If you have any questions please feel free to use the direct email link below or give me a call anytime. Be safe out there! Jon Kruger President, Anvil Arms LLC Lakeland, FL. Proud ARFCOM Industry partner Lifetime NRA Member 863-398-4460 [email protected] www.AnvilArms.com |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - LEO needs a hand (Page 1 of 2)
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