AR Sponsor
Posted: 10/13/2007 11:52:12 PM EDT
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Alright here is my question, and sorry but I have to ask it this way: I have 2 magazines. One is a 20r with about 7 rounds loaded in. The other is a 30r with about 28 rounds loaded in. The hammer is not back(down) in my weapon. Safety cannot be engaged, ect. When I put my 30r mag almost fully loaded into my weapon it won't stay in, it falls out. When I put my 20r mag with only a few rounds in it stays in. I have tried this with every other 30r magazine I have with around 25-28 rounds in it, mostly Colt magazines, others Center Industries, ect. All aluminum GI mags. It never stays in. What the hell? Oh yeah and also, whenever there is a magazine in and I pull back the CH it always stays back, but I see people pulling it back quickly to chamber a round and it doesn't stay back. What the hell? Am I missing something? |
Well seriously, I am confused.  Oh yeah and the mags only fall out if the B/BC is NOT to the rear. This is not normal, so WTF BBQ?Edit Well yeah I did try and give it a whack and it just isn't cooperating, I guess I'll try to punch it. |
| Check mag catch tension or mag catch itself,check and see if its a buldged mag as it should drop free with the carrier locked back,anything making contact with the mag like the bolt catch when its back,try a brand new mag,it should chamber when charging it with the handle..im betting its a bad mag. |
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I have tried this with a bunch of different mags with a bunch of rounds loaded in, but the thing is all of these mags I have (all aluminum standard GI, mostly say Colt...) work fine when inserting them while B/BC is forward with NO AMMO in them. But again it DOES work fine with the B/BC BACK, all of these mags give me no problems other than this (only while loaded too). What the hell? How would I go about checking the mag release/bolt catch if it is the problem? Why is it it doesn't work if it is loaded up? Weight? |
| I always load all my mags down, 28 in a 30. They just insert easier this way. I can't get full mags to stay in any of my AR's without a good amount of pressure. If you are in a hurry and need a mag ready to go in your AR, but want you bolt forward on an empty chamber, you'll just have to load your mags down. |
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This is the reason we fill our 30 rounders to 28 rounds max. Not because it overcompresses the spring or such sillyness, but because it is almost impossible to insert and seat a full 30 rounder into a bolt-forward AR-15. 28 rounds. Insert magazine with non-firing hang in a low grasp on the magazine. INsert firmly upward until a click is felt or heard. Tug downward to ensure magazine is seated. There is nothing wrong with your rifle. You need to be properly trained on this weapon. Recommend Larry Vickers, EAG Tactical (Pat Rogers), or Trident Concepts (Jeff Gonzales). |
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If you have a loaded magazine inserted and pull back on the charging handle, a round will be chambered. If you have an empty mag and pull the charging handle back, the BCG will remain open. Some magazines require some serious force to get them to seat with a closed bolt. The 28-round rule is a good one to follow, or 18 rounds in a 20-round mag. Manipulate your weapon in a manly fashion, and it will respond in kind. There's nothing wrong with your rifle. Some formal instruction would be a very good idea as the previous poster indicated. -E |
I believe that the OP said he is loading his 30 round mags with no more than 25 to 28 rounds. So I not sure that it is a training issue. |
Then what training produced this? This is obviously not a mechanical problem with the magazine catch, and does not sound like a magazine issue, as the magazine is being engaged and retained by the catch. He further stated that other magazines did not work in his weapon, and that he had the same problem with different lowers. How does any of that indicate a mechanical problem? I am not hassling this guy, but it is obvious that he is seeking information because he is dealing with something he does not fully comprehend. Contrary to what some people claim, simply owning a penis does not mean you know anything about guns, can fight, or are a decent driver. All these skills require training. His statement about observing others pull back on their charging handle immediately indicates that he has not been trained. So, as he requested, I informed him of the problem, how it should be done, and where to go for proper training if he is interested. |
Did you miss the part where he already said he's only loading 25-28 rounds in his 30-round mags? (And for the record, in a blind test, I cannot distinguish any difference is force needed to properly seat a magainze loaed with 30 rounds, and one loaded in 28 rounds. I know a lot of people swear by this, but as far as I can tell it is a psychological benefit, not an physical one. YMMV) |
Downloading to 28 rounds does not make it a simple matter to perform a bolt-forward reload, it still requires substantial force and practice, agreed. I omitted the precurser to this issue, and it may have made my response hazy. Apologies. Inserting and retaining even 28 round magazines is difficult for some people. I have had to assist more than one person in performing this manipulation. I have had on occasion been unable myself to seat the magazine of a student, only to discover that they had managed to stuff 31 rounds into the magazine. I am not implying that OP is unable to count, or that this is his issue, but to illuminate the fact that an knowledgable instructor will be able to help with these training isues. I know several instructors that go even further, having their students only fill 27 rounds in their magazines. Maybe OP would be better served with 25? I can seat 30 rounders, but not easily, and would not want to do it under stress. I can, however do it with 28 rounds, and under stress. Why does everyone lose their cool as soon as someone implies that they require training? Pat Rogers recently enrolled himself into one of Jeff Gonzales' courses. Does that make him incompetant? Hardly. We can all use more training, under the supervision of a knowledgable and competant instructor. |
I hope you are not thinking that my response is my "losing my cool"  If you think that, you are completely wrong.I was merely pointing out that clearly the issue of loading 28 vs. 30 in the magazine could not be related to the problem the original poster was asking about - since he apparently doesn't load 30 rounds in any of his magazines. So while your point is one that may be valid, it seems irrelevant to whatever problem he is having. While I may disagree with you on whether there is any difference in the force needed to seat a 28 round-loaded vs. a 30 round-loaded magazine (which is ultimately en empirical and testable question anyway), I completely agree with you that the vast majority of shooters would benefit from additional training. I've personally had extensive training (and sometimes been an instructor myself) in the army, but I have no doubt that I would benefit immensely from taking some additional classes now (if I could afford it and if I had the time). |
The issue is spring tension and force required to overcome that spring tension sufficiently to allow the magazine catch to engage the magazine. This shooter's issue is not a mechanical one, as indicated by the OP by statements to the effect that other manufacturer's 30 rounders with less than 30 rounds do not seat, and that the problem does not change when other lower receivers are used. If it is not a material problem, it is then a weapon-handling/manipulation problem. Am I wrong so far? It is very hard to seat fully filled 30 round magazines. It is not much easier to seat 28 rounds filled in 30 round magazines. The down-load has survived contemporary scrutiny for this purpose. As I said earlier, I acknowledge the fact that he is only filling 28 rounds or less. As you stated, you cannot tell the difference between 28 and 30 rounds when loading to condition 3 or performing a tactical reload. So this is not an easy thing to do, especially for an untrained individual. True? So we have established the following: OP cannot get his magazine filled with 28 to seat. OP can seat his 30 rounders when empty or bolt is to the rear. OP can seat his 20 rounders when filled with 7 rounds. OP has identical problem with other lower receivers. Conclusion: not a mechanical problem. Therefore it is a problem with the individual inserting the magazines. If it is a manipulation problem, the OP would be best suited by hands-on instruction. True? I recommended instructors that I have personally trained with and agree with. My statement about losing cool was not so much about an incoherant rant or inappropriate remarks from anyone, but the fact that people are much more inclined to misdiagnose issues as problems with their equipment than their inability to properly use it. No being a dick, just calling it like I see it. The poster before you almost seemed insulted that I would imply that any poster to ARFCOM could possibly require training, whereas I see it as the critical gap. |
I hear this over and over again, but I have never had this issue with any QUALITY USGI 30 rounder including all the ones I was issued in the Corps. Of course when I seat magazines it is NOT gently. You smack that puppy in, then yank down to make sure it's locked in. Yes, downloading will make it easier to seat. OR just buy some P-Mags. 
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Yup, I was a little over-dramatic on the "impossible" part.  Can we all agree on "difficult"? |
Yes - but your original post SEEMED to say that this was an illustration of why people should always load 30-rounds mags with 28 rounds. When in fact the likely problem is that the original posted just had weak girly-arms  , or is not willing to smack the magazine into his rifle with a proper movement (or amount of force).So I (again) agree completely with you - that training would be very useful. Possibly I misunderstood your post, where I THOUGHT you were saying that his problem illustrated that loading 28 in a 30 was important. When you said "This is the reason we load 28 ..." I thought you were referrring to his problem - but maybe you were saying it like it had a colon on the end, so that the "this" referred to your next sentence, and not the original posters problem. Apologies all around if I just mis-read your post. 
Good - I thought I had accidentally given you the impression that I was all worked up over this, or had been offended somehow. 
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1) It is NOT hard to properly insert a fully loaded 30 round magazine. If it is, then you're a wimp or an idiot. Your rifle is not a toy, china doll, or somthing to baby. Fucking learn how to use it and use it well. 2)if you DON'T know how to use it, get trained. Period. 3) if you're complaining about inserting magazines, then change lower recievers/rifles and have the same problem, don't bother asking again. If there REALLY is an equipment issue, it will be in the lower, not the upper. If you change rifles and experience the same issues with different rifles, then the problem lies with YOU. See point number 1. 3)this thread is so full of lose that I can hardly stand it. |
Exactly correct, I've just done the blind test again but with four rnds removed from a 30rnd mag. I checked both before removing the rmds from one to make sure they felt the same fully loaded. Absolutly couldn't tell the difference between the two.And when I guessed at it I was wrong. They are not at all hard to seat fully loaded let alone "very" hard. I can't tell any difference until you get to about ten or less rnds left in the mag and it's certainly not enough difference to cut my load out down by 2/3's. I also just sorted through my mags to find a couple that reqired a good slap to seat (slightly low mag catch hole) and couldn't tell any difference after removing some rnds. I also can't remember a single D.I. or Range Sgt. at U.S. Army Infantry Traing School ever even discussing down loading any mag. I'd be a little PO'ed if I paid good money for a class only to be told I need to reduce my load out because of some mythical magizine insertion problem. My advice to the OP is to check your gear. Some mags have low catch holes making them difficult to seat. Some weapons may have out of spec parts causing a problem. Down loading your mags won't correct any of these problems. If necessary increase your upper body strength. As far as chambering a rnd using your charging handle. Pull it fully to rear and completly let go of it. It should only stay back when an empty mag is in place |
Wow sorry to see your thread got to hell in a handbasket. Let me help you out a bit.
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Just man handle it... U really gotta push mine it... if I have 30 rds in... the bolt stays back unless I really whip it back hard.. or... have bring the bolt back and manually catch it then hit the bolt release... OR... try a little something they put on the rifle for a reason... THE FORWARD ASSIST!!!.... it's there for a reason... even if you don't think u need it... if u have the time... always give the forward assist a tap... just to ensure proper seating... |
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Hey everyone, I got it down now. I slide it in and slap the bottom on the mag hard and click, it goes in. Thanks. Oh yeah and when I mentioned the thing about seeing people reload by simply pulling back on CH I just meant that I never do that because I had always hit the bolt catch instead, I just wasn't sure if mine had a defect because I remember it always holding back even if there is a round in it, I guess I'm wrong and I forgot or something. |
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So, just to check... You "discovered" that you needed to apply more pressure to the bottom of the magazine to get it to seat? You're welcome for the free training. Then you feel compelled to make a snide remark that you shot your wall beacuse you are not formally trained? Since everyone here is happy to accept free information, I will, in a show of good faith, provide some more information to you. Do NOT slap the floor plate of said magazine during your bolt-forward reload. Instead, maintain a firm, manly grip on the magazine with the spine of the magazine pressing into the "V" between your thumb and index finger. This is affectionately known as the "beer-can grip", and is familiar to nearly all heterosexual male homosapiens. The pinkie should be flush with or slightly below the floor plate. (Magpul Ranger floorplates are great for this reason, and the one coming up) Keeping the muzzle pointed toward the threat area rotate the magazine well inboard at about a 45 to 90 degree angle. Insert the new magazine and push inward with both the firing and reloading hands until you hear/feel a click. That click is the magazine catch engaging the notch on the magazine body. Practice with an empty magazine first so you understand what I mean. The Ranger Plate helps as the relief toward the front of the magazine will allow the pinkie to push upward on the magazine, as well as assisting magazine removal from the mag pouch, when the magazine is properly oriented and retrieved (this concept alone could easily take 20 pages of argument in this thread, and in the end someone would still call me a senseless douche with the IQ of a Wolf cartridge with a missing primer). Once you feel/hear the click pull downward on the magazine to ensure that it is seated. Done. Why not slap the magazine? 1 Removing your hand from a full magazine when the weapon is upright or even tilted inboard to 45 degrees begs the magazine to fall merrily to the concrete floor, volcanoing your precious 5.56 TAP rounds all over the floor, and alerting the people you were shooting at to where you are, and exactly how incompetant you are. 2 If the weapon is upright (muzzle downrange, magazine well open toward the ground) slapping the magazine will smack your muzzle upward, and will probably not consistently seat the magazine. 3 If you took my advice and turned the magazine well inboard at 45 to 90 degrees but still want to beat on your magazine, you will wind up smashing your tender little palm into the sharp corner at the rear of the magazine. Sure, it still happens with a bolt-forward failure to fire, but it doesn't make it suck any less to leave large pieces of palm meat dangling from your magazine. Gloves reduce this, but I rarely sleep with my gloves on, and consistent performance is always a key to success. 4 It's not all that easy to do repeatably in the dark under stress, and if you miss the bottom og the mag, it usually falls out, and everybody realizes that you are a dip-shit. 5 If you fu[k up and think that your bolt is forward, but it is actually retained to the rear, and you insert your new mag and spank it in, you have a very good chance of causing the top round to jump free of the feed-lips. Then when you realise that your bolt is to the rear (or you try to shoot something) and you smash the bolt release, you cause a double-feed. Now everyone's suspicion about you being a dumb-sh!t has been confirmed. Sorry about the help. 
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By the way- If you bought an AR, why do you only have two 30 round magazines? Why are they beat-up and abused? They look like those awful Centers that came out in the mid 90s and all turned golden. Before dropping $100 on the CTR and the $50 on the MIAD, I would have spent $150 on decent, good, new magazines. www.dsgarms.com www.44mag.com/prodinfo.asp?number=DH30BM www.magpul.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=80_120&products_id=268 Again, sorry to help you out. 
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Don't bag on my mags! I have a couple of those. They are USGI issue and I have no idea if they are Centers or not because the floorplates on military mags get swapped all the time. Beatup mags, like beatup guns don't have to look pretty if they work. Mine all work, and have never failed to. Don't laugh. During the next ban I could probably sell them for $50 ea. |
True dat homie I assume that we all have some mags that we don't like people to see, hell, I've been holding onto a few pre-bans in case I have to move to some crappy state. Any others get swapped on Uncle Sam's dollar Beat-up anything that works, works. Perfect condition stuff that doesn't, gets rotated out regardless of how nice they look. Point is that OP bought a nice *looking* rifle, put on nice (albeit unnecessary) components, but only has two magazines. |
I got Gold 30 rounders its just the anodizing |
Sorry but I won't "miss it" when I slap the magazine in. It works, so it works. It's easier for me that way. Big deal. I can do it the way you told me to also, how you grip the mag and just shove it in. That's nice, it doesn't matter dude. But thanks for telling me about how you put it between your forefinger and thumb, it makes it more comfortable, but I'll still slap it in anyway.  Edit I turn the weapon 45 degrees so I can easily insert the mag (I am right handed and I use my left hand to put the mag in, right hand holding onto pistol grip, duh) and gently slide it in and then slap it in with authority, AND EVERY TIME I DO THIS IT GOES IN, CLICK, IT WORKS. 
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