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Posted: 8/3/2007 2:39:21 PM EDT
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Let's try this again. The first one got magically dissappeared by site staff.   What do you think about this? If you have evidence that any of it is incorrect, please present it. This should turn into a very valuable reference for what makes a QUALITY AR-15 or M4. |
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The total at the bottom does not very well represent value or relative score. You need to weight the different features according to how important they are. For example....Something like "H buffer" or "Double Shield Handguards" can very easily and inexpensively be changed, so it probably would have a much lower weight than something like "Chrome Chamber and Bore" or "M4 feed ramps". Granted, the weighting would be subjective and thus very controversial. It is probably something the consumer should do for himself. Other than that, the chart is very interesting and informative. I would like to see a few other brands on there. |
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Looks about right to me from my limited personal experience (Colt, LMT, CMMG, Stag and a little shamed to say…..Bushmaster). Sorry to burst any ones bubble here but like ALL sites threads and posts "disappear" from time to time, so to speak (I have had a few of mine disappear over the years).  |
| Can someone enlighten me as to why the CMMG barrels are advertised as CMV 4150 and are really not such? When did this happen? Or is it because they also offer SS barrels. Just wondering since I really like my CMMG barrel, and would like to know if I this is true. |
So perhaps the chart represents virgin products as received "in the box".. before parts are changed.. |
I dont think it is all that accurate. All the carriers I listed above were properly staked from the factory and the list says those companies do not stake their carriers. |
Here are pictures of three different carriers. The un-labeled one is an LMT. Colt's look just like an LMT. The other two are indeed staked, but not WELL (properly) staked.   |
I spoke on the phone with a guy(who I won't mention) who visited CMMG's facility. He was adiment that CMMG doesn't machine or manufacture their own anything; let alone barrels. They buy barrel blanks and have a local machine shop do the rest. The only thing CMMG does, is drill the gas ports and assemble the components bought from other vendors, to include DPMS Lower Parts kits. Now buying parts to build guns, isn't a bad thing; in of itself. The problem is that the caliber of the people building the stuff(mostly kids) isn't what it used to be (when CMMG first started out); according to my source. According to him, their return rates shot up from 1 a month to 5 per week; out of an average 40 uppers/rifles shipped. There is lots more he told me but i'll leave it at that. This individual is a very reliable source. |
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Well this should get interesting real fast. Anyone want to bet on how long this takes to become a Colt V. LMT V. CMMG V. Bushmaster, etc. thread? I predict 5 pages of fun before this gets lockedhAll of the manufacturers have had crap weapons slip through their QC at one time or another. And we all know that an issue that is trivial to one user will be a deal breaker for another user. That is where customer service takes over. I would rather have a $500 franken gun that works than a $1300 "tier 1", purple rifle, with a canted front sight base that short strokes, and FTE/FTF every other round. |
Looking at the picture, the metal was deformed down (punched from above) and not into the pins from the side. You can easily see it if you know what you are looking at. Looking down from the top you can see the metal is deformed out towards the outside surface. The only way that can happen is to punch from the top. Look at the lower right punch mark. You can easily see it there. That's the problem. Also, If it was punched from the side it would raise up around the bolt which it doesn't. |
Well, looking at my RRA bolt carrier and my Colt bolt carrier there is a difference in how they are staked. The one thing I noticed is that the metal around the key bolts on the RRA had just as much contact area as the Colt did and it looked like the picture above. Only difference I could tell was the Colt had metal ballooning out from the top and the RRA had less of this. My question, and I willl leave this alone is, how much is enough and where do you start seeing failure at? I have quite a few rounds out of mine with no failure yet. Does the quality of the stake jobs like that differ? I had a long talk with a very respected dealer/builder off this site once about staking carriers and we both agreed that the CMT type staking above was un-sat but thee metal did not have to be crimped near as much as Colt was doing it to hold the bolts in. I will not mention his name and I do not offer it up as proof of any kind but at what pressure on the bolt from the sides of the key is sufficiant and is there a way to measure this? ETA, I concur with the rest of the list, I just wonder about the staking thing. |
Unless you reveal your "very reliable source" this is just heresay and more CMMG-hating from you. |
What is the deal with people not liking CMMG these days? |
Bad form. AR15 has had its share of secret "very reliable sources" either state facts that you can support or delete your post. |
It's just the same few who chime in anytime CMMG is mentioned |
I agree with the poster in that why should he jepordize the man's (I assume it's a man) job to satisfy the ravings of an internet argument. I personally don't know anything about the company, other than they have treated people badly on this board for customer service. Instead of trying to fix unbelievable bad screw-ups (Screw ups so bad they should have refunded the money and fixed the porblem) they banned the guy from future purchases for bringing it to the boards attention. Which was greatly censored by the MODs because CMMG is a sponser. I buy alot of AR parts / equipment, but after that fiasco CMMG will never see my business. They make Colt look AWESOME for PR. As much as I hate Colt's politics they back their product. |
This is also the truth. Besides the fact that CMMG has been lying to people all along when they say "we're tooling up the machinery" for this or that. The fact is that all CMMG does is assemble parts bought from other venders and assemble "home builds on a bigger scale. This doesn't necessaraly make for a bad rifle; if done properly. All the lying and other BS is why I will never buy a CMMG product. You CMMG Cool Aid drinkers really crack me up. Now off the the range to test my new P Mags. If this post isn't locked, censored or deleated, i'll see you later. |
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Just an opinion and opinions are like rear ends, everyone's got one. Some AR owners seem to want to play "My dog is bigger than your dog", AR wise. To some, owning an AR that costs more then everybody elses means everything. Brand name is big to some and of course there are they who have had to use the AR for what it was intended for and pretty well know how to separate the grain from the chaff. The chart posted was informative and likely accurate but there are those AR owners who can afford less expensive brands that perform flawlessly thousand of rounds after thousands of rounds. Thanks to the Poster and the chart for the info, he did good. |
| I asked CMMG about thier barrels and was never lied to, they never claimed to make thier own barrels as far as I know. Also, why does the chart state that thier barrel material is questionable? No-one answered my question, I say if no-one can come up with an answer it be removed from the chart. I am a big CMMG fan, I would pick a CMMG rifle over BM or Stag or DPMS any day. Yea I know they use alot of Dpms parts for thier recievers etc...but the DPMS lowers is what I dont like, mag wells are not in spec. |
I think the deal is, if it doesn't use the accepted method then check it to make sure there is enough contact so the bolts won't back out. Doesn't mean it isn't going to work, just to check it. |
I know, it is called leading questions. I am trying to draw out someones logic for this. RRA does not punch their keys from the top, it is done from the side at an angle I believ but not sure on this. The contact suface on mine are excelent but even in the above picture the shadows in betweed the key and the bolts obscure how much contact is made. So my question is again, how much is enough? |
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Randall-since you have shut off your e-mails from arfkom and when I do e-mail you I get an automated response that you don't read your e-mails- You should probably read the e-mail I just sent you. Also as was pointed out last time you posted trollboy's chart there are a number of mistakes in this chart. I can understand posting it once, but a second time once that has already been pointed out? |
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